Unblending and Direct Access with Mel Galbraith | Internal Family Systems
Unblending and Direct Access with Mel Galbraith | Internal Family Systems Therapy
In this episode of the Going Inside Podcast, I sit down with Mel Galbraith, a Level 3 IFS therapist and COO of IFSCA, to dive into the practical side of unblending and direct access in Internal Family Systems therapy. We explore what to do when clients struggle to "drop in" or when protectors resist stepping back, and Mel shares how to approach these situations with curiosity, patience, and flexibility. We also touch on the role of self-energy in creating safety, how to avoid bypassing protectors, and the balance between sticking to the model and meeting clients where they are.
Protectors resist unblending for a reason—curiosity and validation are key to earning their trust.
Direct access can feel intimidating but is a natural and effective way to engage parts when insight work stalls.
Prioritizing client safety and flexibility over rigidly following the model leads to deeper, more authentic healing.
Learn more about Mel:
https://www.youtube.com/@IFSCA
https://www.youtube.com/@mel.galbraith
https://www.facebook.com/p/ifsca-61563584521442/
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Interview Transcript:
Mel: [00:00:00] We teach our clients coping skills, and I think it depends on the client, right? Like, if I showed up to an IFS session and my IFS therapist tried to teach me deep breathing, I'd probably be pretty pissed. Like, yeah, same. Right. Yeah. And, and, right, if I didn't learn how to self regulate as a kid and I, because I've never been co regulated with and I come into a session and we're doing all this digging around with parts, there is no expectation that I all of a sudden learn how to self regulate and if we're digging around in client systems and it's causing them to be more dysregulated during the week, oh, I can't sleep anymore.
Oh, I haven't really been eating that much, right? That we're creating we're not creating more safety for the client.
John: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me, trauma therapist John Clarke, for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're [00:01:00] navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self discovery.
Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarketherapy. com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Before we dive in today's episode, I want to thank our sponsor, Jane. Jane is a clinic management software in EMR that helps you handle your clinic's daily admin tasks so you can free up your evenings and weekends.
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Let's dive in excited to introduce my guests for today. Mel, Mel Galbraith is a level three certified IFS therapist, the CEO and senior staff of IFS CA and the owner of psychotherapists at MG counseling office. Mel, thank you so much for doing this. I know we've it's been a long time coming for us on the scheduling end, but I'm glad we're here now.
And yeah, I am. So, Just some background, part of how I know you and kind of is that Derek the founder of IFSCA was my IFS teacher and a hell of a start in terms of a place and a person to learn IFS from. And so, and then after going through the Stepping [00:03:00] Stones program which you now run and manage Then I eventually came back as support staff and I've had some interactions with you since then.
So I'm still, you know, part of the IFSCA community in that regard. And now I'm so curious. Yeah. Just where you want to start this conversation with both your life, who you are, how you got here, your journey. as a therapist, your journey with IFS your journey with Derek and just see where it takes us.
Mel: Great. Thanks, John. Thanks for having me on. Glad we're finally here with all the scheduling that happened with us, but I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, my IFS journey. I also, John, started my IFS journey with Derek. I was actually in Toronto. In grad school at a narrative therapy conference with a friend who was in my master's with me and they Had heard about ifs they weren't trained in it and they started telling me about like this parts work thing and I was [00:04:00] very intrigued Bought some books started reading and doing Kind of self parts exploration in my own system.
And then I got curious around Am I doing this right and I had had I'm an interaction with some of my friends that brought up some anxious parts and in that moment I decided to find an IFS therapist and I emailed around to different folks I didn't know anyone doing IFS at this point and I emailed around and I I kept getting referred back to Derek, so it was through outside referrals that Derek Scott kept being that one person that just I kept getting back to, and I ended up reaching out to Derek and he had, could fit me in within like a couple weeks or whatever.
And, and so I met with Derek, and not only did that session confirm that I was, Kind of ish doing IFS right in my own little explorative way [00:05:00] But IFS was something that Really landed for me. It just made so much sense to me that we would work this particular way and over my Therapy experiences as a teenager one of the big questions that I always had was why.
And so I had bulimia for probably 10 years as a teenager and in my early 20s. And every time I sought out different therapy, which was never IFS, I always wanted to know why. Why do I have this particular eating disorder, but other people don't? And I could never get that answer until I found IFS. And so it also really pulled me in in that sense too, because I could figure out the why.
And for my system that felt so healing and so important. And then I also, I became practice staff for [00:06:00] practice triads, and then I started running consultation groups for Derek. And so that was kind of like the stepping stones into being just an instructor was he put me in for consultation groups.
And then he asked if I wanted to run the queer cohort, which is, is called stepping in now. And then it really just kind of spiraled from there and, and kind of helping Derek out when he was on sabbatical doing cancer treatment and, and really jumping in and taking more courses. And then when he came back, just kind of fitting in where, where it was needed.
And then in the middle of all of that, I did my level one, my level two, my level three and got I just got certified this year actually. Yeah. Yeah, so that's sort of the trajectory of my IFS journey and it's very very interwoven with Derek. Yeah, definitely a big mentor moving through all of that learning.
Yeah.
John: Yeah. And I've, I've heard you [00:07:00] talk about your relationship with Derek, both, you know, by being part of. the IFSCA support staff, and also you were recently on Tammy Sullenberger's podcast, The One Inside, talking about it. And so yeah, I've heard you talk about that relationship. I'm also just so curious about the moment that Derek asked you to take the reins of the company after he passed.
Mel: So it's a funny story, actually, so there had been back and forth, just communication around, you know what this was going to look like when Derek wasn't here anymore. And there hadn't been a lot of like finalized plans put in place and then. I got a text message from Derek that said, need to meet with you, it's important, let's book a Zoom call.
Which is not common, or not uncommon for Derek to say, hey Mel, need to talk to you about something, let's do a Zoom call. And so I had just booked it with him I think the next day, and then just hopped on. So I hadn't been reading my [00:08:00] emails, keeping up on maybe what the meeting was about, it was just, oh meeting with Derek again.
What I didn't know was that there was an email in my inbox with a job description and a chief operating officer job offer in my inbox. When I pop on Derek's like talking about emails and I wasn't really following and then it clicked, I was like, Oh, you sent me an email about this meeting. I'm like, I didn't read it.
He's like, Mel, go read the email. Yeah,
John: this is a job interview.
Mel: That's right. This is a job interview. Maybe you should read it.
So I opened up and I'm reading and I had a mix of parts. I had, am I actually reading this? I had some excitement. And then we just kind of dove in and of course I said yes to, to the offer.
And I wasn't I wasn't completely surprised about the invitation to walk into a COO role. [00:09:00] And partially because years before that, Derek and I had had a random casual conversation about, over red wine, about Well, I imagine he'll just, you know, take over for me one day whenever I just don't want to do this anymore.
And this was before Derek even lived in BC. And so I wasn't totally surprised when he asked me to take it over, to take over IFSCA for him or be part of the team over IFSCA, but it was funny. I didn't know I was walking into a job interview, like a very big job interview. Yeah. And I was walking into a very big job interview.
John: It's a great story. Yeah, I mean, so we're going to talk about some topics that are taught in the Stepping Deeper program. I mentioned Derek on the show quite a bit. He had a massive impact on my life and my just love for IFS. His love for IFS was so contagious. He was an [00:10:00] incredible teacher and just a hilarious person to be around.
And you know, I, I just really appreciate and miss his unapologetic ness of just being fully who he was. It's something I have struggled with a lot of my life and, and just his boldness and humor and hilarity is, was just helped me loosen up and learn the model and be. A little more free to try it right in the, in the environment that you guys create and still create through stepping stones.
So I just wanted to say that we could do the whole episode about Derek, but he's constantly you know, in my life and in, in my mind and heart. So stepping stones is a really incredible place to learn the model and. True to IFS form, a lot of learning is experiential, right? So it rotates between a week of lecture, basically a week of teaching, and then right into these practice groups [00:11:00] where you're practicing with supervision.
And that's where a lot of the learning happens. After Stepping Stones you all have this program Stepping Deeper. Talk to me about What that program is and how it helps people advance their skills beyond stepping stones
Mel: Yeah, John, I'd love to so stepping deeper really builds on those initial skills that folks learn in level one and stepping stones and thinking hard in these like your first kind of first step into the model and stepping deeper Really talks about what do I do when these other skills that I've already learned don't work?
What do I do when my client can't drop in and do insight, right? What if my session doesn't look like these demos where people can come in and name a part and drop in and do all of this beautiful inner work? And really, how do we create more safety in these systems that are locked up tight? And for me, when [00:12:00] I am with a client who has a really a lot of resistance in this work, right, where I go to is something's not safe yet.
And so for Stepping Deeper is really how can we create that safety for these clients so that they can eventually get to a space where they can drop in and do some insight. And so starting all of that off is we start talking about. Unblending and direct access. So our very first module is on those two pieces and really starting off with why does blending happen and why is blending so important, right?
And how we all naturally blend with our parts and it's so necessary that we blend, right? For example, if I'm driving in Toronto, I want my part that knows how to drive in five lanes of traffic to be fully blended. with me in that moment. And so there's times where blending is really, really helpful and important, right?
And even if we're talking about traumatized systems, right? The blending of a dissociative [00:13:00] part, or the blending of a manager that keeps you, knows how to keep you safe, is so essential. So really starting with why we need blending, and why it's important, and why it happens, and how our parts really communicate with us through blending.
John: Yeah,
Mel: and then walking client or walking our students through how can we really help? clients unblend and going through Really different ideas and techniques around how to help with unblending, right? And so some things were like we might invite a part to blend with us more so we can really deeply Attune with what's happening for that part So that eventually that part can unblend because we have more clarity around that.
John: Yeah, yeah.
Mel: Or even coaching parts around unblending. Hey manager, there's a lot of activation in the system when exiles get close, right? Because they're, you're experiencing what they experienced at the time of wounding.
John: That's right.
Mel: This is really [00:14:00] common, right? So we might even be coaching different parts around what's happening in the system to give them a framework to then Soften back a little bit and give us some more access inside.
And so we go through There's a lot of techniques. So as we were creating this course, there's a lot of unblending techniques that people can use. And so instead of teaching every single unblending technique that we could find, we've really categorized unblending techniques into six different categories.
And so then we can teach the categories with some of the skills underneath. And so there really helps students have more tools in their toolbox to help with parts and, or to help parts unblend. And so that's really the first half of module one is working with unblending and different ways to do that.
John: This show is primarily about trauma and it just so happens that probably 90 percent of my guests are IFS folks. [00:15:00] So it's basically an IFS show. And so something I see even when being support staff for the, the the, the learning groups for stepping stones is when people are learning the model, they have there's, there's a part that's identified in, in the session.
The client identifies a part and then the practitioner might ask, you want to focus on that part? Yes, I do. Okay, great. Can you get to know it? Can you ask how old it is? You know, you're off to the races and then another part comes in. And a lot of folks when they're newer to the model, they just default to, can you ask that part to step back?
And in fact, that's taught, right? It's, it's, it's something to kind of do to help keep the focus on this target part, but sometimes we can get into this territory of kind of bypassing protectors, you know, ask it to soften back, ask it to soften back. So how do you help folks determine, when that is the thing to ask for versus that part now needs attention versus you're in starting to get in the territory of bypassing protectors.
Mel: It's a good [00:16:00] question John and my how I approach any session whether it's a system that has a lot more protectors they can't drop inside or someone who has more experience and they can really go in is If we're with a target part and another part comes in I'm gonna notice it Basically, no matter what you say, you're with part client might say, I'm feeling sleepy.
I say, okay, notice sleepy. How come? Oh, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. Okay, let the partner. You heard it Okay to pull back now that it knows we know it's tired or The sleepy part has a concern. It's putting client to sleep because whatever the target part is saying is I'm calm Yeah, so for my practice is and sometimes it only takes a couple seconds I assume that every part shows up for a reason, and I will pause and notice, and then I will go back to the parts.
And so for me, I'm, even if it's just [00:17:00] a little sending a part acknowledgment that it's here, it doesn't want to have a seat with us right now, beautiful, can we go to the target part now? So for me, I'm always just noticing and just a gentle how come for some of the parts that are coming in. And because sometimes when those parts come in.
The sleepy part might be connected to the part we're working with, we might work with both of them together and inviting that to soften back without checking Right, because we missed something really important in the session.
John: Yeah, I think similar to you know, and I so I own a training practice here in san francisco So therapists that are getting their hours for the board and sometimes when we do either like couples work or family work you go Okay, I've gotten pretty good at seeing one on one clients.
Now all of a sudden I've got two people in the room or three people are in the room or four people in the room, right? And this brings us all the way back to systems thinking which is a huge, you know component of the model and really something Dick Schwartz is [00:18:00] really Passionate about is becoming systems thinkers.
So sometimes it seems like therapists or practitioners when we're learning the model It's hard to kind of Hold both right or create space for okay now two parts, which one is the target part or there's three parts or there's four parts or whatever, right, but it's really important that we go slow with that and learn to work with multiple parts at a time because we always are whether we realize it or not.
Mel: And for me, I think that. If you hear inside, Ooh, I can't work with four parts. My answer would be, who said that? Who inside can't work with four parts? This energy can hold space for all four of those parts.
John: Yeah. Yeah. Something I offer to my trainees, you know, my practice is it can be a lot to hold and what we're trying to do, let's say in the case of family therapy is create Some interaction [00:19:00] that is from a place of compassion or love, or let's say you've got a couple and they're really fighting a high conflict, you know, a couple, I'm trying to get the two of them to connect right from as much self as possible.
And trying to help that interaction happen. I don't have to know everything about everyone in order to make that happen, right? So we're really like the texture of a good couples therapy session or a family therapy session or an IFS session is one of like slowness, dropping in a bit, vulnerability, honoring parts perspectives, right?
Clients perspectives, and just creating a condition where More heart can, can come through. And that helps me kind of simplify the model in terms of like, what am I doing here with all these parts in a room? Or what, if there are seven, you know, what am I, what am I doing here?
Mel: And if all of those parts are rushing and blocking client, right, and we know those clients that just have parts that pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, right, it's, they're kind of going back and forth with all these parts, right, [00:20:00] and when they're all so close, it can be so hard for the clients to have that space to start with that, you know, slow kind of back and forth between self and parts inside, right, which is why some of these more advanced techniques can be really helpful.
I'm very helpful in inviting. Some of that space or getting more information about why the space or why giving space is too unsafe
John: That's huge, right that witnessing piece parts have a very good and compelling historical reason and vivid detail that they might tell you about about why Unblending hasn't gone so well.
And so sometimes They need that experiential proof of even if I unblend 5 percent and let this session happen or let Mel help, you know, the system a little bit, let's try that and then see how it goes. And then check back in with the part and say, Hey, what did, what did you think about how this went once you gave us a little bit of space, right?
Like I, I can't come in and just, just assume that this is going to go super well. Right. [00:21:00] Even when I have good intending parts and myself, like. Therapist parts that are here ready to help or in the case of like let's say you're doing an IFS demo or doing You know trying to be a good client in your practice group, right?
There's there's a lot that can happen there around just trying to be a you know, a good client and being cooperative Yeah,
Mel: yeah, and I think you that the pausing to ask why why is unblending feel too unsafe is actually unblending technique because yeah, let's say we ask part Right. Hi part. What feels so scary about giving clients space?
John: Yeah.
Mel: Every time I've done that in previous therapy, I get pushed aside. And the shame is present.
John: That's right.
Mel: Too much. And when we can get that information, right, we can say, Let the part know you get that. Right? It's actually not our intention to push you away. But we really just want to get to know [00:22:00] you.
And your know will be honored every time with that. Yeah. What's it like for part to hear that? Ooh, part's ears peek up. Part client says, Oh, there's a tiny bit of softening in my chest. Beautiful. Right? And then you're in it. Right? And so it even the pausing and the slowness and the gathering information about why, right, can help with unblending.
Yeah. And the opposite side of that if we're in parts. Which we all have that are just pissed off that that part won't unblend and we try to get it to unblend What's going to happen is the parts going to blend more and it's going to get bigger All right, so what you're talking about that slowness is such a helpful unblending Parts also.
John: Yeah, so that this is gonna lead us pretty smoothly into this This skill of direct access which I find a lot of practitioners feel kind of [00:23:00] intimidated and on one hand, I can get that on the other hand, I think once you try it, it's quite natural. You're kind of doing the six F's directly with, with a part, but it can be kind of funky and different to go Hey, I know this sounds weird, but could you ask that part?
If I, John, the therapist could talk to that part directly and the client's like, what, you know, I didn't know that was an option, but. So when do we use direct access and then how do you, how do you guys teach it?
Mel: Yeah, so i'm just gonna talk about Both so explicit and implicit direct access just so yeah Listeners who might be like john, what are you talking about this direct access thing?
So direct access is when I know my client's blended with a part and i'm speaking directly to that part So opposed to insight where we're guiding our client's self energy to speak to their parts directly inside Direct access is where we're going to take that seat of self and we're going to talk to those parts.
And so implicit [00:24:00] is when you know they're blended but you don't name that you're talking explicitly to a part. So client says, this whole IFS thing though, this is a little bit too woo woo for my system. I know they're blended with that woo woo part. So then Mel would say, I know, you're right. It's really woo woo, and you probably didn't expect to come to therapy, and for Mel to say, Hi, can you focus on your shoulder and ask how come?
Probably not your expectation of therapy.
John: Yeah, right, right.
Mel: This is one of the most helpful ways I know how to work through some of the things that you're talking about. What happens as I say that? I'm talking directly to that concerned part about IFS, but I didn't mean it explicitly, but I know that I'm doing that.
Same example with explicit direct access, where a client says, Mel, this whole IFS thing is a little too woo woo for me. And I would say, Hi client, can I talk directly [00:25:00] to the part that says this is too woo woo. Hi part that thinks IFS is woo woo. How come? Tell me more. And then you're in this conversation with the part.
So that's the difference between implicit and explicit direct access. And when do we use it? All the time. All the time. And I think that the assumption for direct access is it's just an unblending technique. We only use direct access. When we need parts to unblend, right, that's my initial assumption of, of, of direct access.
And it's partially true, right, we do use direct access to unblend, but we're also using direct access at the beginning of all sessions with clients. Right? Hey, John, how's it going? How was your week? Right? Implicit direct access to the whole system. Parts are going to come up and they're going to name, Oh, this was good.
This was maybe not good. Parts are going to talk, right? This back and forth. Implicit direct access. We [00:26:00] use it to build the relationship with new clients at the beginning. Right? So we'll be using this implicit direct access to build the connection and build the safety with new clients. If there's drags or halts in a session.
Right, which could be parts blend. So I'm with a six year old part, and, Oh, I just went blank. Okay, see if the blank part will talk to me. Hi, blank part. How come you just came in right now, as Mel was sitting with that ten year old? Oh, this is way too overwhelming. We can't stay here. Okay, tell me more.
Right, moving right into direct access. Part pulls back. Okay, client. See if you can be with that 10 year old again, right? And so we might move in it and out of it seamlessly in a session when we're doing Insight. And in that exact scenario, you might also say, Client, can you notice the blackness that came in, right?
Like you might choose to just stay in Insight, you might choose to flip to direct access. I might say, [00:27:00] see if the blankness can just hear me directly, right? I might move into implicit direct access in that moment. If we're working with polarizations. Everyone might be working in, in direct access. And when parts don't want to talk to the client.
John: Yeah.
Mel: Then parts might feel safe talking to us, right? Which is, it makes a lot of sense where if parts are talking directly to us, they just get to blend and be the client, right? And that can feel a lot easier sometimes for parts than for them to blend and inviting the client to come into this self to part connection with them.
And so sometimes, I've had clients say the part just wants to talk to you. And these are even clients who can do insight, right? I had one client that said, so my part doesn't understand why it has to communicate with me and then to you. So it's just a lot more easier for that part to just talk to you.
And so with this client, the part of blend, we would do this information gathering piece. And then the client, we would move back into self and the client would go inside. And so there are such helpful tools to be able to [00:28:00] use and a lot of therapists are scared of direct access because it, not only are we asking clients to do this weird IFS thing, now we're asking them to do this even weirder thing where we talk to their shoulder.
Not only you, but let me talk to your shoulder and we'll get some information there. Yeah. That will bring up parts in us that feel, Like, we're going to be judged because the language can feel uncommon, I think, to some of our readers, and that can feel like, Ooh, what are they going to think of me if I say this weird thing, or if I ask to speak to parts of them directly?
John: Totally. Well, it's interesting because Whether we know it or not or acknowledge it or not, parts are already kind of checking us out as therapists. And I remember early on I, I went to Arizona for this Frank Anderson training and I saw him do this thing where he invited parts to check him out through, he said, through your eyes, like through the client's eyes.
Check me out, right? I'm this guy on stage. We're doing this demo, right? But really [00:29:00] inviting them to check me out and basically to see and decide for themselves whether I'm safe or not, or whether doing this demo is safe. Right. And it was a really nice demonstration of direct access and just honoring those protector concerns and, and going, I'm, I am a person here and I'm probably evoking certain reactions.
I've even had the case in Stepping Stones groups where someone in the group, whether it's a therapist or a client will be having some reactions to me being in the room because of just who I am or what I look like or me being male presenting, right? And even a client going, I just need to name this, right?
There's a part of me that really doesn't. Like having you in the room. Okay, that that that makes sense. Can that part tell me more? Is it willing to talk to me a little bit and just talk through these concerns and that was enough to kind of help It along but they're already, you know checking us out. And so it's really I think a nice move to get ahead of that and really invite that Regardless of what the parts reactions are [00:30:00] or if they're like who the hell is this guy, right?
Like you can't help me. What is he doing? or they're coming and going maybe this John guy can't help me because Part doesn't trust itself right or part is going. I I'm afraid that that client hates me Our client has said they hate me right my perfectionist part my drinking part my whatever And so they might go directly to the therapist and say but I'll tell you because I get a sense that you don't hate me right
Mel: I've had similar experiences where listening to parts stories inside And I say something like Oh, that makes so much sense to me why the part would show up.
Or, that makes sense to me, the drinking. Of course it drank. Drinking definitely sounds like it felt better than all that shame or all of those drama flashbacks. Right? And then clients will say, Oh, part feels understood by you. It wants to talk to you. It [00:31:00] doesn't feel understood by me. And when we move into direct access in those moments part of the client system is also listening, right?
So as we're in a self to part connection with the part, right, we're updating some of those managers and some of those protectors that are listening. And as they update it, there's possibilities that those managers will soften and let self come online. Right. And so then just moving into that, right, is we're really updating the system around how come the journey is happening.
So that those parts can have more of a understanding and scaffolding, right? Oh, you're not drinking to wreck my life. You're drinking because the other side of that is trauma flashbacks. Oh, that makes way more sense. Oh, I can give more space for that. Yeah. Yeah.
John: Yeah. I just had a moment this morning where Toward the end of the session I had kind of reassured A client that hey there was this thing you [00:32:00] were really afraid of and then you did it and now you're reaping the rewards of doing it and he was kind of sitting there nodding his head like yeah, I did it and I could tell something else was happening and he then said, well, like there's a part of me going, but what if, but what if, but what if, right?
And starting to play out these future scenarios, right? So me offering that reassurance was actually kind of triggering the part. Right, which and, and, and so then I, I did, I guess, a bit of implicit direct access and just kind of like, I'm really noticing this part that's already trying to help you get ahead of the next thing.
So even as I reassure you right now, and there's a part of you that can kind of take that in, there's another part going, I have to stay on guard for whatever's next, right? We were worried about this thing for the past seven weeks and then it didn't happen. Now, I'm worried about the next thing. Wow, it's like that part is really trying to stay ahead of things for you, right?
Can you see it doing that? Can you see that client? And he was able to like, yeah Yeah, I can kind of see it and another part is kind of annoyed though, you know
Mel: Yeah, and I [00:33:00] think too that like when I think about not only kind of this module, but I'm just sort of overarchingly thinking about some of the other modules of stepping deeper, but even just the implicit direct access piece, John, that you're talking about is, I think that a lot of us are doing this.
I think a lot of us are using implicit direct access. I think we're dabbling in or using explicit direct access, right? And I think we're using a lot of these unblending techniques we talk about, but I don't think people know they're using them. Like you hear from students, Oh, I do that. Oh, I didn't know what that was causing that.
And so even for this module one around unblending and direct access is really offering people more of a framework to put, what am I already doing? Under kind of some categories and really tidying it up and giving folks more of a structure because I think about, you know, even for myself, like how many you do this session, like this IFS session, client can't drop in, but you're kind of working in this realm of unblending and direct access, [00:34:00] something's working for the client.
But yeah, fully put your finger out on what that is, module one in stepping deeper is really how can we put this all together, right? And even with like, I'm looking at the slides right now, but even like, when I look at direct access. Right? And this whole structure of what are we doing step by step, right?
Welcoming, attuning, learning positive intent, addressing fears, etc. And there's so many little skills underneath each category. And then, so here's, here's a more. Complex framework, right that you might you can choose what works for certain clients, right? So really helping categorize Direct access pieces and blending pieces.
So there's more to pull on right, you know intentional conscious way from, from this framework. Yeah.
John: So interesting because yeah, I've done martial [00:35:00] arts my whole life and as my Muay Thai instructor used to say when we're learning or practicing a new technique, he would say simple but not easy. Simple but not easy.
Like throwing a punch, throwing a kick. Simple but not easy. And I find that to be true a lot of times with IFS. And the model in its simplicity can also be quite difficult to implement fluidly. And the nuance and what if a part pops up or what if a part is carrying this, this thing called a legacy burden, what's that?
And what's the protocol for that? Right. It's kind of like a nesting doll, right? It's like the more, the more you get into IFS, the more you realize you don't know there's a name for that. I'm forgetting, you know. That, that phenomenon, but that, that seems to happen quite a bit.
Mel: Yeah. And I used to refer to it and I hear it from students all the time as the tip of the iceberg, right? Every time I learn a little bit more, I notice how much I don't know.
John: How much
Mel: I don't know. The longer I've been doing this work, John, what I've really realized around all of that [00:36:00] is that the skills and everything you don't know is really important. But what also feels equally important in that is self energy.
And so I, I sometimes talk about it's the 50 50 self energy and skills, right? If you just knew IFS, but work 100 percent doing it from apart, It's not going to be as effective as if you were doing it yourself. If you only have self energy but you know nothing about IFS, again, not going to be helpful. It's the 50 50, right?
But when we're getting more advanced, right, and we do know the basics of the model, right, we can really, I find, fall back on our self energy and sometimes in these moments where things are happening and we don't know. And I'll never forget. The time that this really started for me was the first time one of my clients said, I think it's a past life part.
In my head, oh shit, I don't know what to do. Fully blanked the part.
John: Yeah, yeah.
Mel: Once the part pulled back, I said to my client, [00:37:00] Do you have a sense of what needs to happen?
John: There you go.
Mel: And me, trusting, like I was able to fall back into self. My oh shit part didn't know what to do. It would not have been helpful in that moment with my client.
Yeah, yeah. I also didn't have any learning around past life parts. At this point, but from a self led place, I can hold curiosity and I can trust my client's self energy. Yeah. You know what needs to happen right now. My client knew what needed to happen. At the end, the client was a Stepping Stones grad, so at the end of the session, it was like, ha ha, Mel, where'd you get information on working with past life parts?
It's like, well, I had a no shit part and I trusted that you knew what to do from a place. Yeah. Then I went to find consultation and more learning on it. But in these moments where things come up that we don't always have the answers to, as far as skills or tips or techniques, my go to is I can trust self energy, right?
And so that's what I find. And then you can go get all the learning, right? But in some of those moments with [00:38:00] clients, We can fall back and trust self energy in those moments.
John: This is one of many components that I think makes IFS a complete game changer for clients and therapists alike. And on the precipice of, well, with so many therapists on the precipice of burning out at any given moment, and I've been there as well, part of how I got to IFS was I hit a wall, where like being this guy and knowing a lot or knowing what to do, With clients or in a session was just too much right and in my case working Psychodynamically and having to be this attachment object for them right and then create the repair You know, as their attachment object was just too much for me after 15 years of doing it that way or whatever.
And so I love this defaulting to, if I've got safety in my system, they've got safety in their system. Just defaulting to that question of just check in and see if you get a sense of where to go next. Even if you're just in a session, you've been doing good work and working with parts and [00:39:00] blending and using your 6Fs or whatever.
And then you're both, you and the client are a little bit lost. It's like, I'm not sure what to do, right? Or we've got this exile right here and we've got. Two protectors, just, I default to the client a lot, right? If there's a sufficient degree of self energy in their system in mind, just check in and see if you get a sense of where to go next and take, take your time, wait until it becomes clear to you.
And then the client stops and they check in and they go, yeah, I want to go back to that, that part or that one in the corner, or it's not time to go back to that part. Okay. So go with that. And they have a clarity. They have a knowing. And we're looking for that knowing, right, because self knows what to do and where to go and how to not rush it, you know.
Mel: I love that. And it reminds me of, of Derek, where, you know, when he teaches this piece and he would teach it in stepping stones, trusting the client system, right, they wouldn't offer that to the client, really sit until you know which way to go. You're [00:40:00] communicating to them, I trust that you know how to figure this out.
I trust the system. Right. I do the same thing with clients who the more that they know the model, especially right where clients might say, you know, I feel really caring towards that part and I might not know if it's self or self like part. And I say to my client, does it feel like self or does it feel like a self like part?
Clients who know the model and know their self energy can check in, right? Or there's, again a crossroads where you have, where you have sessions where we could go here or we could go here, right? And for clients that do have sufficient self energy, I'll say. So there's two options. We can do this or we can do this.
Do you have a sense of what might feel right for you? That's right. And for me, I don't have a lot of experience not doing IFS because I learned IFS in grad school. But for me, there's something so freeing about that. I don't have to know what to do all the time. I can hold expertise in IFS, but my clients, the expert in their system in the [00:41:00] room, right?
This is a journey that we're co creating together with their experience and my experience with IFS. Let's see if we can figure out what the journey looks like together. And for me, that feels, that takes the pressure off of like, I have to always know what's happening. Right. And I say to students sometimes, if we could plug a TV into our client's head.
then maybe we would take on that expectation that we should know more. We can't see what's going on for our clients. And so that really feeds into, we're not going to know what to do all the time with clients and it's okay to ask.
John: It's huge. I I have a kind of a random question for you, Mel, that I has actually come up, or this is a, this is something that I see a lot of practitioners doing in Stepping Stones, especially when they're new to the model and they bring in skills from other models, which on one hand, IFS can integrate extremely well with lots of other models, right?
Whether it's EMDR, working, somatically, whatever it might [00:42:00] be. Right? So on one hand, let's say if I have a client. Or I had a client one time that came in and sat on my couch and he said, John, I'm freaking out, you know, I just had this big fight with my partner and I'm really worried and I'm worried that like, it might be a divorce.
I'm worried that like I've been really shitty and drinking too much. And so. On one hand, I would see, like, and, and I think Derek might have even said something like this, like, Great, you got a whole bunch of trailheads, like, right off the bat, and you just go right in, right? So there's a part that's angry, there's a part that's afraid that she's gonna leave, all of that.
So I don't want to shut down those trailheads. On the other hand, I see a lot of practitioners who Would deep breathing for 10 minutes with that client and they would basically try to get them to calm down, right? Which again while intending it's what a lot of therapists do. Wow. There's a lot of overwhelm.
You can feel it in your body Let's just breathe. Sometimes. I think this is more for the therapist than Just breathe. Okay, this is a lot right now and I'm feeling it in my body This is a lot right and they're kind of like the therapist needs to breathe [00:43:00] more more than the client or for their own sake So it's like do you what do you think about that? and when when therapists do a breathing technique and try to like settle everything down first.
Mel: So this for me feels like the conversation around, you know, any kind of coping skill, any kind of grounding skill, any type of breathing technique that we might offer someone in a session. And there's, I think, two camps in here, right?
That one side says, no, we never do that in IFS. We never offer coping or breathing. We don't do that because parts will feel dismissed. Right, and we don't want to dismiss parts. We want to invite them in. So we don't offer any of that.
John: Yeah,
Mel: and I think that depending on the intention of the coping skill of the grounding technique that it can be useful.
And so when I talk about this, I talk about the intention underneath. Okay, if clients coming in with big energy and I'm dysregulated because my client has so much energy, [00:44:00] And I offer a breathing technique, how come? Is it for me or is it for the client? Because if my heart's coming in with a breathing technique, right, because I am feeling dysregulated, that's a therapist part that's going to pull me away from my self energy.
It's coming in with a piece for me, so I can be re regulated, right? And, if it's for the client, right? Like, let's say client with big energy. So in your scenario, John, if I said, ah, you have a part, right? I'm hearing a part that's real angry about this. You want to check in with that one? If client can, and I might say, see if you can breathe into that part, see if it can give you some space so we can be with it, right?
If that can happen where the park and unblended client can go and be with that part, or I can say, oh, this part has a lot of energy, see if it wants to speak to me about that. Right. If some of those [00:45:00] techniques will work, I'll go to those techniques. For other clients where it's so dysregulating that they can't continue the session.
Right. And none of these techniques are working. Right. Then I might move into something that's grounding, or that is a breathing technique. My intention in that moment would be so the part can give the client space so the client can hear the part. And so if I was offering this to a client, I might say so this part has a lot of energy and my sense is that it's really close and it's hard for you to really get clarity on what it's trying to communicate.
I'm wondering if we can do some breathing with the part. We don't want it to go away, but we just want to give you a little space so you can really be more clear or be within a more clear. What's that like for me to offer? So if the coping technique can help with unblending so that the, so that this client can be in a deeper connection with [00:46:00] the part.
John: Yeah.
Mel: That feels like we're offering it for the client. Right. Opposed to for the therapist and kind of any intervention for me falls under this kind of idea of even psycho ed. Right. I have a beautiful psycho ed part that if I get stuck, I can talk about psycho ed of IFS for 7 hours.
John: Right. I think a lot of therapists have that part.
Mel: Right. If I'm stuck, let me just talk about them all. Give information. Right? I'm just giving you all this information. That's for me. That's a therapist part. But if my client is saying, I'm confused, Mel, I'm lost, I don't get it. If my psycho ed part comes in and offers psycho ed to my client to help them understand the model more, right?
That's for my client. It might be the same part offering psycho ed, but who's it for? Is it client led or is it for me? And for me, that's where the distinction comes in. If it's self led or if [00:47:00] the part, right, is less self led and it's coming into all my Excel, it's not focused on my client at that point. Yeah. So for me, it comes down to coping skill.
John: You know, I find again with Stepping Stone students, a lot of them want a hard and fast answer. And then they get like an IFS answer, which is a both end, you know, and this what you just gave is a really good both end, which is what about breathing with the part, right?
It's not like tell your client to breathe or don't tell them to breathe. Tell them just go toward the activation, right? It might be a both end. And then I'm again, yeah, I'm aware of that kind of two camps. You know, in IFS around like, do we teach coping skills or is that antithetical to to, to IFS and a big part of becoming a good therapist and a, an independent therapist, meaning like once you're through with like, you know, the board and licensure and school and all these things, and you don't have someone You know, looking over your shoulder or meeting for weekly supervision is like being able to evaluate how well [00:48:00] did that work?
Right or checking in with the client? What was that? Like if we did this breathing with the part thing or whatever you're doing being able to evaluate like how well that that worked and if there's a part of you that maybe Did shut down the activation of that part? Then you can check in about that and you can go back to the client You can go back and check in with that part and say there was a there was a part of me that felt that activation and so You can do you know, you can always loop back around to things and that's also a very IFS thing to do just honoring your own parts and Being more self led in that way
Mel: And I think too, I mean, this is a massive topic, John, but even if we teach our clients coping skills, and I think it depends on the client, right?
Like if I showed up to an IFS session and my IFS therapist tried to teach me deep breathing, I'd probably be pretty pissed. Like, yeah. Same. Right. Yeah. And, and right. If I [00:49:00] didn't learn how to self regulate as a kid, and I, because I've never been co regulated with, and I come into a session, and we're doing all this digging around with parts, there is no expectation that I all of a sudden learn how to self regulate.
And if we're digging around in client systems, and it's causing them to be more dysregulated during the week, oh, I can't sleep anymore. Oh, I haven't really been eating that much, right? That we're creating we're not creating more safety for the client. And I think where the, for me, where the coping skills comes in is, do the managers want more techniques to how to help the client self regulate?
Because it's not like, if they say no, Right? We're not like, so come to class and we'll teach you how to, how to self regulate, how to have all of these different coping skills, but those managers are so exhausted that we want the client to be able to self regulate, and when I hear that, what I hear with my IFS hat on, sometimes I think we have to teach clients how to unblend from parts, Before we get them to dive right in [00:50:00] to or crack open their systems, right?
And so for me, I'm going to say something that I don't know what's been sitting with me for the past little while is and around this topic for me is The safety of the client becomes more important than the purity of the model. And so for me, if it's going to make doing IFS safer, right, where we're not completely dysregulating your clients during the week, then I would say we're doing a good thing with clients.
John: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's really well said. And ultimately, regardless of Yeah, what model you're using or where you learned it or whatever Really being able to do the right thing for your client And again in my case in the case of the show being a trauma therapist and working with trauma clients Everything I do has to be kind of catered to the [00:51:00] people I work with, which are people with trauma.
I know we're running out of time, of course. But I know that Mel, you're, you're a parent like me. And so a lot of the best IFS training I get is by being a parent every day. And yesterday. My wife and I were out and my four and a half year old was having really big feelings and we were about to meet someone for like an appointment.
And there was a part of me that really wanted this like tantrum to be over or for my daughter to stop crying which was completely apart for me. And I also think about my own parenting and how a lot of that parenting was, don't be ridiculous. Calm down. Right? Go to your room until you're not crying anymore.
Go to your room until you're not angry anymore. And a lot of that, that's how a lot of my exile stuck on those burdens of if I have big feelings, I'm. I'm unlovable all of a sudden. And even for parents in general, or I have clients that come to, to my practice and they want help with parenting, right. I had a client who's whose son would not go out on the soccer field, right, a toddler, and it was just too much for him.
And so the parent is [00:52:00] going, don't be ridiculous. Okay. All the other kids are going out there. Why don't you just go out there? Right. And it's like, that's, yeah, that, that's for you. Right. And then you're telling this little kid, bypass your intuition, bypass everything, you know, and get onto that soccer field, you know, but that little boy is sitting there going, I'm seeing something bad could happen.
Right. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll have to do another episode on this whole thing because it's just
Mel: well my parents were like Oh, so now we have a four part because there's four modules to step in.
John: Yeah exactly Yeah, we'll have to yeah, we will even do an episode about parenting. I would love to do that with you
Mel: Parenting parts and self stories as you were chatting about that.
John: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a rich well no, thank you so much for doing this. Anything else you want to say just to wrap up or final thoughts? And then of course, how can people learn more about the programs that I FSCA and we'll of course, put [00:53:00] links to all this stuff in the description.
Mel: Yeah, nothing else to name.
Now I do have a part that Yeah, it feels like this was a really juicy for module one, and it's cool that we might be able to do this again for the other modules for folks and they bite sized chunks of it, which feels exciting for my parts. And to find more information about Stepping Deeper, so there's a website steppingdeeper.
com ifsta. ca's website is it's It will be done, I'm hoping, this month, or January. So we're in the middle of revamping it all. So that should be up soon. So it'll be on there, and then Teachable, or TicketLeap. And so we're our online booking site, TicketLeap. And we can put all of the information on that stuff, John, I think in your show notes.
Yeah.
John: Great. Excellent. We will, we'll, we'll be sure to do that. Yeah, everything will be in the description and we'll definitely do more of these Melanie anytime you want. It's great. And on my end, it's [00:54:00] just been. An absolute privilege to be part of Stepping Stones and to help support students is just incredible.
And to be some small part of, of Derek's legacy is just incredible to me. So yeah, thank you for leading the organization and helping so many practitioners. Learn IFS and then helping their clients just the the many ripples that's having on the world is incredible So hopefully you know that and can feel that and take that in amidst the busyness of it all and with all the transitions That you've been through in the past year, so yeah,
Mel: thanks John, it's a nice reminder and When I hear people say it it really invites my parts to slow down and step back and notice Right.
Yeah. The impact of, of just this work, right? That not only IF Yeah. Huge is doing, but that everybody's doing when we're doing IFS and how impactful it's, and so it feels, it feels like an honor to be kind of heading up I-F-S-C-A for Yeah. And, and everything that he [00:55:00] wanted, IFSC. So Thanks John. That's great.
John: Thanks again, Mel. And we will we'll be in touch. Sounds good. See you soon. Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.