Race and Trauma with Dr. Nathalie Edmond
Race and Trauma with Dr. Nathalie Edmond
In this episode of Going Inside: Healing Trauma From The Inside Out, I sit down with Dr. Nathalie Edmond to explore the intersection of race and trauma. We discuss how understanding racial dynamics can help us navigate difficult conversations and promote healing. Dr. Edmond also shares insights from her new book Mindful Race Talk on approaching race-related topics with curiosity and compassion.
Key Takeaways:
Curiosity Over Defensiveness
Approaching conversations about race with curiosity helps reduce defensiveness and fosters meaningful dialogue.
Building Capacity for Discomfort
Learning to sit with discomfort is essential for addressing difficult topics like race and trauma.
The Role of Repair in Relationships
Repairing ruptures in relationships, especially around race, is crucial for healthy, ongoing connection.
Learn more about Dr. Nathalie Edmond at https://www.drnatedmond.com/
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Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] Dr. Nathalie: Part of what I critique about traditional trauma treatment, particularly for people of the global majority, is, is the trauma treatment trying to help people better cope with oppression? So the idea is you come to therapy so you can learn skills so you can go back into an oppressive world? Or is the trauma treatment about liberation, really, and really a transformation?
[00:00:21] Dr. Nathalie: inside of oneself and are recognizing that the system is
[00:00:27] Dr. Nathalie: oppressive.
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[00:01:22] John: All right, let's dive in. Nathalie Edmond is a licensed clinical psychologist, yoga teacher, and trauma therapist who consults on anti racism, specifically building people's racial literacy, fluency, and agility. She has a membership community called anti racism revolution that has a new series coming out this fall, as well as a book called mindful race talk, building literacy, literacy, fluency, and agility.
[00:01:48] John: Nathalie Nathalie, it's so great to see you again. We were just catching up a little bit for hitting record. We have worked together and on the business side of things, but now meeting here in this new project of mine, focus on [00:02:00] trauma and healing and yeah, I was just really excited to have you you know, join the show today and catch us up a little bit on, well, I guess, you know, for, for folks who haven't met you or heard about your work.
[00:02:11] John: Who are you and how you got here? And then we'll, we'll find our way.
[00:02:15] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. It's so good to catch up with you, John. Always a pleasure.
[00:02:20] John: Yeah. What should people know in terms of some background of, of your work and how you got here and, and what you're up to now? And I know we'll also talk a bit about the book today.
[00:02:29] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. So, so I'm a licensed clinical psychologist been practicing for over 20 years and really a trauma therapist at heart spent a lot of years working in behavioral health systems, treating women's trauma and was a director of a women's trauma program for seven years where we really looked at, like, what are the best practices in trauma treatment?
[00:02:49] Dr. Nathalie: So. We did DVT we did sensory motor psychotherapy, we used yoga and I've continued that in private practice over the years. I've been [00:03:00] trained in so many different approaches to trauma including EMDR and accelerated resolution therapy. Exposure therapy. So I'm one of those people who's like there isn't one model that is the be all end all for trauma treatment.
[00:03:14] Dr. Nathalie: And I've got trained in being a yoga teacher because I felt like so much stuff was hidden in the body in terms of our emotions or trauma or memories or attachment stuff and it felt like cognitive therapy wasn't going to be the only way to healing. And then anti racism. I'm really passionate about helping people, particularly people of the global majority, heal from racial trauma and helping our white accomplices or budding allies have greater capacity to talk about their own racial trauma and the ways in which you know, them healing from racial trauma can be really liberating.
[00:03:52] Dr. Nathalie: So, like to me, it's all interconnected, even if it feels like a lot of different things. And now I'm a director of a college [00:04:00] counseling center where I'm trying to infuse it to be neurodivergent, affirming, anti racist, trauma informed, and I feel like You know, these young adults are trying to process so much and it's such a vulnerable time period for them that if I can create a healthcare system on the college campus, that's really going to support them.
[00:04:20] Dr. Nathalie: They're going to be amazing adults out there in the world.
[00:04:24] John: Yeah. Yeah. A special place in my heart for college students. I started my career at a college counseling center. And I remember thinking, well, a lot of these young people have. On one hand, so much hope for the future and also carry a lot of the burdens of what is wrong with our society.
[00:04:42] John: And they have a lot of awareness, perhaps even more than other generations around issues, whether it is climate racism issues around gender expression Yeah, it was just one of my favorite groups to work with. So much conscientiousness. And also a great [00:05:00] degree of mental health issues at the same time.
[00:05:02] John: So it's such a critical
[00:05:04] Dr. Nathalie: time to
[00:05:04] John: be serving people. Yeah,
[00:05:06] Dr. Nathalie: it's such a time of vulnerability and thinking about like, what are the adverse childhood experiences they're bringing to college? And then, you know this time period of like extreme polarization and like starting to think about what do they believe and what did their families believe and where are their synergies and where are their disconnects and
[00:05:26] John: yeah
[00:05:26] Dr. Nathalie: and yeah sexuality, gender, religion, spirituality, all the things and and being and changing their relationship to their electronic devices where they're so plugged in and like how do they get enough sleep and how do they like Not get so caught up or attached to the likes.
[00:05:44] John: And yeah, that's a
[00:05:45] Dr. Nathalie: lot.
[00:05:47] John: You know, the, this show primarily focuses on trauma and although we talk a lot about IFS followed by probably EMDR, we talk about a lot of different models that being said, a lot of what we talk about is maybe in the [00:06:00] category of relational trauma, or let's say folks that have suffer child abuse or sexual assault or whatever it might be when you think about Trauma and racism.
[00:06:11] John: I guess where, where do you like to start the conversation? Especially in number one, this word trauma being so ubiquitous now, I don't know if that's the right word being so widely used right now, people kind of waking up to the idea of, of trauma and a lot of things can be traumatic. But yeah, where do you start that conversation around trauma and racism specifically?
[00:06:33] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah, well, I guess if I think of my definition of trauma is anything that overwhelms our nervous system or our minds ability to integrate it. And so I think, I think of racial trauma as something that is, you know, not a, Officially in the DSM, and so it becomes harder for a lot of clinicians to maybe even understand how to assess it or how [00:07:00] to notice it because I think when people think of PTSD, they think of some of these like classic symptoms of trauma, which someone with racial trauma could have that if they've had, let's say an acute racist incident, right?
[00:07:13] Dr. Nathalie: Like when we think of like police brutality or a hate crime or Something like blatant, that's acute, but I think about microaggressions, which are often small, repeated indignities, that are sometimes insults, sometimes they're so subtle, one might even question, did that actually really happen, am I being too sensitive, and when we think of relational, like so many microaggressions happen in the context of relationships, right, and it's often, the intent isn't to harm, right, But it it's because we're unaware or we have some we're operating from some stereotype and and it's subtle for a subtle thing could be I can't tell you the number of times [00:08:00] I have, so I'm often one of the few people of color, let alone black women in predominantly white spaces.
[00:08:08] Dr. Nathalie: So the number of times people mistake me for another black person, because there's so few of us, like that's a microaggression.
[00:08:16] John: Yeah.
[00:08:17] Dr. Nathalie: But for them, it's just like, Oh, I just, I just mixed you up. But for me, it's like, it happens so often.
[00:08:24] Dr. Nathalie: That for you, maybe it's an isolated incident, but for me, it's like, you're one of many.
[00:08:28] Dr. Nathalie: And so am I losing sleep over it? No. But, but yet the accumulative impact of that, you know, over the course of 40 something years, you know, it, I think it what do they call it? It's a weathering effect. Right. And I think that Geronymus talks about weathering, like these slow little things that probably impact my cortisol level a little bit.
[00:08:50] Dr. Nathalie: But like, I'm not walking around afraid that someone's going to mistake me. And yet it it's, it's there, it's ever present, like in the back of my mind.
[00:08:59] John: [00:09:00] Yeah. Racism and oppression go kind of hand in hand in my mind in terms of Opportunities not being the same for the global majority. How do you see that playing out even among like the college students that you help these days?
[00:09:16] John: And and in your own life, have you seen it playing out?
[00:09:19] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah well, I I think about The different levels of impression, because I think even all of these things, right? It's like all of these are stressors. So I think about even oppression, right? There's a continuum of oppression from mild to moderate to kind of extreme.
[00:09:34] Dr. Nathalie: So I think about particularly in our society where there's been so much attack on diversity, equity and inclusion. And even though diversity, equity, inclusion encompasses all kinds of ways in which people have been excluded. not only about race but yet often when there are discussions about DEI, it's often focusing on race.
[00:09:54] Dr. Nathalie: And yet, and so I think when you are, let's say someone of the global majority, particularly who is perceived [00:10:00] as black or brown, there's an assumption that maybe you didn't earn your spot. Or that you're not intelligent or you're like maybe a good athlete and that's why you got accepted to a school.
[00:10:11] Dr. Nathalie: Or you got that job, you got that promotion. And I think that that's also microaggressions, but it's also the weathering effect of feeling like I have to keep proving myself or I have to Ken Hardy talks about, you know, true inclusion involves being able to show up as my authentic racial self. So I think about how I've spent most of my life code switching, assimilating into family white spaces.
[00:10:36] Dr. Nathalie: So like, don't ever bring race into the room. Don't talk too loud, don't appear aggressive never initiate the conversation around race until the other person does. And even if they do. Moderate it so that they don't get overwhelmed or feel too uncomfortable or guilt or shame. So there's a lot of maneuvering that I think myself and I think a lot of people of minoritized identities have to do, have to do, whether [00:11:00] it's race or gender or sexuality or religion or any, and so I think this idea of assimilation says you are accepted under certain conditions.
[00:11:10] Dr. Nathalie: And I think that's oppression, right? You're accepted under certain conditions and the people in power get to decide. What those conditions are, and they can also take it away, which is what we're seeing in our society, right? Rights getting taken away one by one by different minoritized groups.
[00:11:24] John: Yeah. What about people who kind of downplay racism almost people who, like, want or need it to kind of be over like, let's, let's move on or saying things like, Don't focus on the past.
[00:11:37] John: I'm like paraphrasing things that I hear in the zeitgeist of today, or like we've had a black president using that as a data point for like, we've moved past this. Yeah.
[00:11:48] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. I guess I always think about. Everything is on a continuum. Right? I think of we've made so much progress related to race and racism, right?
[00:11:58] Dr. Nathalie: Of course, right? We wouldn't have been able to [00:12:00] have had a black president if we didn't have progress happen in the United States. And yet when we look at patterns over time, like how do it, it always comes back to how do we make sense of the disparities? And the inequities that exist in our society.
[00:12:17] Dr. Nathalie: Right. And so is, is people's understanding, well, that's individual choice, right? If people just worked hard enough, they would be able to access the same resources or the American dream. Or is it that the system is built in an inequitable way and we'd never have policies long enough to help support the leveling out of some of that stuff.
[00:12:38] Dr. Nathalie: But I also think, you know, it's not only, okay. Let's say if we're talking about race and racism, it's not only white people, perhaps, who are saying, let's, let's tone this down. Let's not talk about this. Right. I think it's also people, the global majority who have achieved a certain level of success and who feel uncomfortable with some of these conversations and also want to move past it.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Dr. Nathalie: So I think it's, it's like, how can we acknowledge all the great stuff that's happened and that we still have a lot of work to do.
[00:13:07] John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My, my sense is that like so I remember the first time I read the book white fragility and talking a lot about white fragility white privilege, white guilt.
[00:13:19] John: I often think about that as a starting point for looking at the reasons why people are in my experience, like a lot of white people, like can't handle the, the, the possibility that this is still, that racism is still alive and well and that they. Have something to do with it, even if they claim themselves as neutral and not racist, or I have a black friend or whatever it is, people have ready examples of their non racism, even if they're not being attacked, they have these, you know, examples that I see as kind of protective, you know, and from an IFS perspective, they're just kind of protector parts that [00:14:00] want to show people that I'm good, not bad.
[00:14:03] John: And in reality, our, our, our psychology operates on a really basic level. And in that way even for whatever reason different is bad. There's something in there that I think triggers unsafety for, for people. And for some people, that's the beginning of the end. That's the beginning of avoidance.
[00:14:24] John: I just don't talk about it. I don't go there. I don't have friends who are. You know, people that are not like me or don't look like me or whatever it is.
[00:14:33] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really this idea of the binary, right? If I, if I acknowledge that I have participated in racism or I have supported racist systems somehow I'm a bad person versus I know lots of really great people who consciously or unconsciously aren't aware of like the depth of racism in our systems.
[00:14:55] Dr. Nathalie: And that, you know, when we think about trauma, that's inherited, right? The [00:15:00] trauma that has passed through the generations, like this didn't start in our lifetime, right? This started hundreds of years ago, started on a different continent. Right. And then came over here. And so like, that's not going to get solved in one generation.
[00:15:13] John: Yeah. I, I do want to talk more about the generational piece. And again, and in the IFS world, we talk a lot about ancestral burdens on both sides and there's a lot of healing that can be done there down ancestral lines. I'm also really aware, you know, in our show is both therapy consumers, people that are on their journey of healing from trauma and also Trauma therapist.
[00:15:34] John: I think about it a lot that a lot of the predominant models of psychotherapy are rooted in, Old white dudes. It's the Irvin Yalums of the world who not only a old white dude, but also working with primarily white upper class, you know, clients of Palo Alto. And then creating an entire model of psychotherapy around this.
[00:15:57] John: And, and on and on the list [00:16:00] goes, whether, you know, from Freud to Jung to Carl Rogers to Aaron, Aaron Beck. So, I guess, what are your thoughts on that in terms of like the roots of our industry, not only a psychotherapy psychology, like actually quite young in a way but also just a lot of these major players and that, that grad students are mostly learning about our old white dudes.
[00:16:23] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah, I, and it's interesting you bring it up because I feel like as someone who's been in the field for over 20 years, I've been trained in so many different modalities and so many different, and that, you know, almost all of them, you know, the, the origins are whiteness. And so with each one, I've had to adapt them.
[00:16:41] Dr. Nathalie: I've, because I primarily treat people of the global majority or other minoritized individuals. I've had to tweak them all in order to, to make sense. And so I really appreciate that the field is evolving to talk more about like decolonization and de centering whiteness. And so like, how can we take [00:17:00] the good of these models?
[00:17:02] Dr. Nathalie: But also let's not just adapt them to fit other people, but let's also embrace other models. And I've been really exploring more of indigenous practices and, and just, but not only indigenous, just like what is culturally sensitive. So I think about last year I was So last couple of years, I've been teaching this multiculturalism and feminism class for first year doctoral students in counseling psychology.
[00:17:29] Dr. Nathalie: And last summer, I taught this history and systems of psychology class, which if I took it in grad school, I sure didn't remember it. But it made me go into a deep dive again into the history of psychology. And all the books were written from this European And I was like, what about all the other continents?
[00:17:48] Dr. Nathalie: Like it couldn't have just all originated in Europe, but it just shows like when the texts. are centered in Europe and then they migrate to the U. S. We exclude all these other regions, [00:18:00] continents, cultures that I'm sure we're creating healing practices in their communities. But how do we learn about them?
[00:18:07] John: Yeah. Especially in the realm of trauma, you know, in the deeper I go with it, the more there's, there are incredible rich indigenous practices that have been around. A lot longer than psychotherapy has been around. And we are very quick to like create something new and take credit for it and, you know, put a new name on it.
[00:18:28] John: And yeah, in a way that's maybe unintentionally dishonors And just looks past what is already here. I was this other guest, Bob Falconer talks about how, and he, he would go to Brazil to study and in the hospitals there, like they have like mental hospitals for, for trauma. There are spiritual workers who are there like energy workers, spirit, spiritual workers, shamans that are working in these places as just a normal place to be.
[00:18:54] John: Approach to helping people through their, their trauma, you know? [00:19:00]
[00:19:00] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. And I think part of what I critique about traditional trauma treatment, particularly for people, the global majority is, is the trauma treatment trying to help people better cope with oppression. So the idea is you come to therapy so you can learn skills so you can go back into an oppressive world, or is the trauma or is the trauma treatment about liberation?
[00:19:21] Dr. Nathalie: Really and really a transformation inside of oneself and a recognizing that the system is oppressive because I think if in the therapy room, we don't acknowledge that the system is oppressive and a person is coping or part of their origin story is, you know, having adapted and survived. Right. And carrying these ancestral burdens within themselves, like, I think that we do a disservice to our clients when we're not able to talk about race, when we're not able to talk about the larger systems, when we in some way communicate the problem is inside of you, if you just did enough.
[00:19:56] Dr. Nathalie: Therapy, you could fix this versus like it's inside of you and it's [00:20:00] in the larger world.
[00:20:02] John: Yeah. If you just change your thinking you could overcome this, right. Or be less anxious. Yeah. Or
[00:20:08] Dr. Nathalie: be less angry. Right. I think a lot of, a lot of people of the global majority, I don't think it's like only people, the global majority, I think have a lot of rage, but that rage isn't.
[00:20:20] Dr. Nathalie: Allowed to be processed or channeled and like the underlying grief that maybe is under that.
[00:20:26] John: Yeah. Yeah. Someone told me recently that anger is truth on fire. And that really stuck with me. Yeah. And even though sometimes like people will come to therapy for like anger management, right? Just like such a weird pair of words.
[00:20:43] John: And in reality, a lot of times that anger comes from a place of I was violated or my truth was violated. And I did something about it. And while it may have led to, you. Some consequences, right, or more problems. It's like the [00:21:00] truth of one's anger. The truth of one's rage is usually profoundly true and needing to be seen and, and and witnessed.
[00:21:09] John: It's like a way of trying to get my truth witnessed. Yeah. And then you have. Stereotypes around like being an angry black man that is just such a yeah, is now such a polarized, you know, image or even something I see a lot is like you know, police body cam videos and police that have, you know, Their own aggression or agendas or instigating things.
[00:21:32] John: And a lot of the panic among especially African American people of this, this person could kill me and also they're instigating it. And so do I just do as they say, or do I fight or do I get someone to. Record what's happening here. I've just seen that relationship become even more tense, not to mention we're a month away from another election cycle.
[00:21:57] John: So I'm aware of all these things kind of, [00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Dr. Nathalie: right.
[00:22:00] John: Yeah.
[00:22:01] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. And I think that's a great example of the weathering effect, right? It's like all these things that it's an extra layer of mental energy. And gymnastics of like, do I do this or do I do this? Like, and like just the stress that that has on the nervous system, just all of that.
[00:22:19] Dr. Nathalie: And, and for some people they're doing it automatically. It's not even a conscious thing. They were just taught from a very early age. I need to maneuver in these ways. And especially when your body is policed, right. And I think there are a lot of different minority ties, but women's bodies are police.
[00:22:35] Dr. Nathalie: You know, Muslim bodies are policed. Black bodies are policed. Asian bodies, like there are all these bodies that are policed. And it's, and when I think of policing of bodies, when I think of oppression, I think about what can you wear? What can you dress? How big can you make yourself? How much space can you take up?
[00:22:51] Dr. Nathalie: How's your hairstyle? How's your tone of voice? Like all of these things are, you know, I have two teenagers and I'm like trying to find a way to balance [00:23:00] parenting from a place of liberation. But also, I want you to survive, and I want you to pick and choose your battles, and I want you to show up as your full self, but also know that the world in a Black body, even if it's a biracial body, still wants you to, to behave in a particular manner, and it's like, it's that mental gymnastics of like, I know what my parents taught me.
[00:23:23] Dr. Nathalie: And, and that helped me survive and be successful. And yet it also helped me like show up in the world in a smaller way, in a lot of ways,
[00:23:34] John: what does liberation mean to you?
[00:23:38] Dr. Nathalie: I think for me, liberation is about thriving. It's about being able to like make choices for yourself. That are about your, you're showing up authentically, your whole self in as many spaces as possible. But it's also about like letting go of the shoulds and and how other people want you to be and [00:24:00] living in your own truth.
[00:24:02] Dr. Nathalie: And that that liberation can happen even if the world doesn't change, it's happening inside of you. So you have safety inside of yourself and you have clarity inside of yourself about who am I? What's my value? And even if the world doesn't see my value that inside of yourself, there's a safety. There's a healing that's happened.
[00:24:27] John: I would love to hear a little bit more your experience as a parent. I mean, in, in one breath, you reference both the things your parents did for you for better or worse. And now here you are looking at your children and deciding how. It's apparent through all of these complex lenses, not to mention the fact that this is like the work you do specifically around therapy, mental health, racism, all, all these factors.
[00:24:54] John: So I guess how, how has it shaped your parenting and what are the things you think about as [00:25:00] a parent right now with your kids?
[00:25:01] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah, well, it's interesting thinking about my parents. So my parents were both born and raised in Haiti and immigrated here as. young adults or, you know, late adolescents. And so I think about how much they very much modeled the American dream of like learning the language, putting themselves through school.
[00:25:20] Dr. Nathalie: So very much like model minority kind of stuff. And so interesting in the recent debates, you know, there was very much a targeting of Haitian immigrants. And so, and, and what the, what some facts would say is that, Haitian immigrants in that community really revitalized the town, right? And yet there's this all this other information that makes people hate or fear Haitian immigrants.
[00:25:45] Dr. Nathalie: So I think about how much my parents worked really hard to retain their Haitian pride, but really work to assimilate, right? So they really work to like, put your head down and work really hard. And they taught to their kids, [00:26:00] right? And so So I had that messaging in my head of like, work really hard. But part of that was, was to challenge anti blackness, right?
[00:26:08] Dr. Nathalie: Because their thought was, if you don't work harder than your white peers, you're not going to get as far in life because the system is stacked against you. So I think I still, I still retain that because I know the system hasn't changed fundamentally, right? There's still a lot of anti blackness in the systems.
[00:26:26] Dr. Nathalie: So how do I teach my kids who are half black, half white, that the system is, you know, creates these inequities. So they have some individual responsibility to, to try hard, harder. And yet I also want them to love their, all parts of themselves, especially their blackness. And so like, It means try to have complicated conversations with them almost every day of like the both and to say like I don't like when you go out and you dress this way in your hoodies and your other things that [00:27:00] you love And I think it's great.
[00:27:01] Dr. Nathalie: You're so comfortable in it to also know that some people will perceive you in this particular way So I want you when you're buying something in the store I want to make sure that you have your receipt in case they ask you Because that's a thing that happens, right? Is that black and brown kids, particularly in like hoodies, get profiled and thinking that they're stealing things.
[00:27:21] Dr. Nathalie: So it's like, how do I teach them the strategies, but also not make them think that they're less than. In some way, which is gymnastics, right?
[00:27:31] John: Yeah, an unbelievable amount of gymnastics that may or may not need to be turned on at any particular moment, depending on the situation, the person, to what degree a person on the other end has kind of done their own work.
[00:27:45] John: Again, I'm thinking about therapists here. And, and the responsibility we have to do our own work not only just as therapists trying to not get in the way of healing, but also in these circles of Of race, ethnicity, [00:28:00] gender, our, our differences. And how really the work is never ending. The work is ongoing, even though some people just kind of want to be done with it or say, like, I, I took that class and I'm good, you know, again, here's my proof of my anti racism or my neutrality rights.
[00:28:17] John: Right.
[00:28:19] Dr. Nathalie: And I think that's more of the problem, right. It's the neutrality, right. And this, and to me, it's like. It screams privilege, right? If I can have the option to opt out, that speaks to, I have a certain advantage that doesn't require me to think about this on a regular basis. I can, I can turn it on and off.
[00:28:37] Dr. Nathalie: And I feel like that you know, there are plenty of things I can turn on and off, which speaks to my own privilege and advantage. I know that one of the things that was really me. Critical to me when my kids became teenagers was we decided to move from what I would call a predominantly white town to a town that had like at least 40 percent black students and part of that [00:29:00] was, I felt that the psychological well being of my kids would be better as teenagers if they were not one of the onlies, but one of many so that they could see the diversity of blackness versus just very limited And that's, that's had pros and cons.
[00:29:16] Dr. Nathalie: So I feel like my kids are psychologically healthy because they're immersed amongst other people who look like them.
[00:29:22] John: Yeah.
[00:29:23] Dr. Nathalie: But then there's also the downside that comes with that as well.
[00:29:26] John: Yeah. Yeah, of course. I, I don't know, I might've mentioned last time when you were on my, My other show, private practice workshop, which yeah, for therapists working in the business side of things.
[00:29:38] John: But you know, my wife is Latina and is also white passing. And so she runs into situations all the time where people are kind of confused about who she is, or she can both benefit from her whiteness or appearing white, but also very much feels completely Latina. Not to mention now My four year old [00:30:00] daughter is well, she's Colombian American.
[00:30:03] John: We've been spending time here in, in Latin America now. And the first weekend we were here, we went to a big park and my daughter just looking around, you know, kids just say, Exactly what they're experiencing. And she looked around and she looked at my wife and she said, mommy, all the other mommies look like you the first time, you know, because we've been living in the U S for, for four years.
[00:30:24] John: And yeah, it just about made my wife cry. And just looking at their hair, their body types, the way they move, the way they talk, it was like, Oh, all these mommies are like my mommy. And she was like, You know, my daughter was like kind of delighted by it. Like there's this comfort in that. So it was just such a precious moment.
[00:30:41] Dr. Nathalie: Oh, I love that. Yeah. I remember the first graduation we went to, I think it was like an eighth grade graduation, like to look at the. And the diversity of bodies and skin pigmentation was amazing. And I think that the fact that my kids are immersed in black culture in the school, that they can code switch into [00:31:00] the black culture and they can code switch into the white culture.
[00:31:02] Dr. Nathalie: Like I love that they have that skill set of doing both, but also recognizing that there are different cultures, right? I think that oftentimes in white spaces, we don't think that white spaces have a culture. Because it tends to be the default, but then when you go into other spaces that are not predominantly white, you see like, Oh yeah, there's all this culture and like all the stuff that's happening.
[00:31:24] John: Yeah. Yeah. One, one thing I noticed Nathalie, even since I had you on my other show last, which has been years now is The language around these conversations evolves, right? And a term that we've used a few times today is global majority. So it's actually a term that the first time I encountered it was applying to the IFS Institute trainings.
[00:31:46] John: And they had a, we have a question now around, are you a member of the global majority? That was. The first term. Yeah. I guess anything else to say like around that term and how it got here or what you think about it?
[00:31:59] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. [00:32:00] Yeah. So I think for the last, so I think people of color was used as like the, the generalized term for people who were not perceived as white for many years.
[00:32:11] Dr. Nathalie: And then I think the term BIPOC was came into fashion for a number of years, standing for black indigenous and other people of color. And then I think, I think the term people of color and BIPOC is still used a lot, but I think that in certain spaces where we think about when we zoom out of the United States, most people are black, brown, Asian, indigenous, right?
[00:32:34] Dr. Nathalie: They're not actually white. And so when we zoom out, the majority, the globe in the global world. Minoritized people in the United States are the majority. So I love that, love the word because it feels empowering
[00:32:49] John: to
[00:32:50] Dr. Nathalie: say like the global majority versus we so used to saying, Oh, minority or racial minority versus global majority.
[00:32:56] Dr. Nathalie: It just feels so much more expansive to me. So I like to use it [00:33:00] as much as possible to kind of connote this huge, huge sibling hood that exists across the world.
[00:33:10] John: Yeah, it's a, it's a powerful term. And, you know, for me, it's like, as a white person, the first time I read that the first time I read that term and then kind of visualized myself you know, witnessing like the global majority.
[00:33:25] John: And I guess you realize so much, or I can speak for myself, realize so much of like the American experience, or for me as a white dude from the South, growing up where white people were the majority. in my elementary school, middle school and high school. So the assumption is I'm the majority, right?
[00:33:42] John: Most people are like me. And and then seeing that term, it's like Our worldview is often quite limited to who we saw, right. Or even going back to my daughter around like who, that, that the type of skin that she saw growing up is is a form is, is very formative to her schema around [00:34:00] race and around how important am I, right.
[00:34:03] John: How, how special am I? Yeah, yeah. Around this idea of. Terminology. And part of me is hesitant to bring this up because I'm like this, this word has always felt loaded to me, but I also still hear people using it and around these topics of race and ethnicity, oppression the word empowerment. What does that bring up for you?
[00:34:28] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah, I do agree. It's loaded. I think it depends on the context of it. So I think I think there are a lot of different ways that people are empowered. And it's not always visible. The other word that's, that I also struggle with is resilience. Because I think so many people have resilience, even if you're not perceiving them as having resilience.
[00:34:51] Dr. Nathalie: And, and so I think all of these words, We should use with caution, right? Because I think sometimes, [00:35:00] like, I think it's a good cheerleading term. Like
[00:35:03] John: build
[00:35:03] Dr. Nathalie: our resiliency skills or let's build our, like, let's empower each other. But sometimes empowerment is let's remove the barriers. That lead to your oppression, right?
[00:35:15] Dr. Nathalie: And so versus I think a lot of times empowerment is individually focused and I think so much of anti racism work or any anti oppression work is about how do we change the systems and structures that prevent so many people from achieving their potential,
[00:35:32] John: right?
[00:35:32] Dr. Nathalie: And it's, it's like my empowerment. Yes, I can do my individual stuff, but also what are the systems and cultural things that are, have always been there?
[00:35:40] Dr. Nathalie: Right. that get in the way, right? That makes me have to work a little bit harder than the person next to me in order to achieve the same things.
[00:35:48] John: Yeah, yeah. It's just a word I hear a lot. Or I guess even heard a lot when I was in grad school, you know, of, and we're talking about these issues in the realm of [00:36:00] diversity.
[00:36:00] John: And on one hand I, I remember early on when I first moved to San Francisco and did, did not have a white client for the first year and a half was working in social work, working in juvenile. Probation and working in foster care and also having been trained in these Yalom esque modalities. And guess what?
[00:36:18] John: It wasn't very helpful early on. And I remember very early on realizing by one of the, the, the families I was working with that like the absolute. Best thing I could do. Well, let me back up. I was kind of under the influence of the probation officer to try to get this teenager to stop smoking weed so that he could comply with his, his probation.
[00:36:43] John: And the mom his mom would smoke weed with him. And so all of a sudden it's like, I have to do this job over here. And my first reaction is like, Oh, I need to get the mom. To stop smoking weed with the kid, right? It's like, that's the obvious thing. Like, that's why I'm [00:37:00] here. And she nipped that in the bud so quickly.
[00:37:03] John: Cause I remember her telling me the only way that she knew that her son was safe and not on the streets was if he was home. And if that meant they were smoking weed together and she knew he was alive. Then that's, that's what she would do, right? This is like a huge, like, I'm not from around here kind of moment.
[00:37:18] John: And it all was contextualized for me. And then a week later, one of his friends got shot, you know, on, on the back of his house. I also realized like in this realm of empowerment, it's, I guess it's a both and, and that the risk is we imply that others are powerless. On the other hand, it's like, I, Have to acknowledge I have some power.
[00:37:40] John: And in this case, the thing I could do with my power was I had a car and this family didn't. And so driving her to job interviews so that she could get a job. And then she told me her goal was to move out of that neighborhood to a safer neighborhood so that her son could go to a better school. Right.
[00:37:57] John: And not get shot. And it's like, [00:38:00] my, my ignorant self was like, okay, well, The best thing I can do with all my college degrees and my master's degrees and my books is like, use my stinking car to get her across town for a job interview. And I, you know, this might seem really obvious and basic to some, but being trained in this overly like one to one.
[00:38:22] John: psychotherapy program, even versus like a social work program and seeing clients as part of systems was was really humbling for me and really just changed everything that I thought about how to do that, that job and working in, in systems.
[00:38:35] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah, I think that's such a great example of, I think when people talk about decolonizing therapy, so many of us are trained into these like rigid boundaries of like, what's my role as a therapist?
[00:38:45] Dr. Nathalie: What's your role as the client? And that's Often many of them are pathologizing versus being strength based, so I would almost replace empowerment with strength based, right? Like this family that you're describing, this mom found strategies to help her [00:39:00] her child survive, right? And we might pathologize that as like, she's not a good parent.
[00:39:05] Dr. Nathalie: Look what she's doing. Versus like, can we see into her worldview and like what the options are? And like, this is her resilience, right? This is her strategy for trying to navigate a world that is unsafe for her kid, right? And And so how do we think about what we think our roles are and can we go beyond what we think are the you know, ethics are not black and white, right there.
[00:39:30] Dr. Nathalie: They're contextual there. We can bring them into life and really think about how does it serve this client in this culture and what harm might I be doing by holding onto these very rigid ideas of how therapy should work.
[00:39:45] John: Yeah, over time, you know, once I actually realized what would be more helpful and just started doing the things she needed help with she also started talking to me more and, you know, I got to, got to use some of those [00:40:00] therapy skills of like, Oh yeah, this is what I've been practicing.
[00:40:03] John: And those things would happen naturally when we were driving down the road and she would tell me about what's really going on or about her family of origin, about her trauma. We would process things. And so Yeah, that that was it ended up being a really beautiful thing once I realized how to be helpful,
[00:40:18] Dr. Nathalie: right?
[00:40:18] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah, absolutely. And that sounds like you were building trust in a different way, but also meeting her basic needs
[00:40:24] John: and
[00:40:25] Dr. Nathalie: that allowed like opening for more conversation. And who told us that we had, we need to be sitting across from each other, like in a traditional office in order for good therapy to happen.
[00:40:37] John: Well, ironically, I was told that by two professors in grad school, one of them literally wrote a one pager that said, this is what therapy is and this is how it's done. You have two chairs in a room and they're angled at a 45, you know, and that's therapy.
[00:40:51] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah. I'm sure you're not alone. I was taught that too.
[00:40:54] Dr. Nathalie: I don't think there was a paper, but for sure I was taught that too.
[00:40:58] John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This [00:41:00] is a, you know, a self endorsed paper that he had written about like what therapy is. And even on that note, like, you know, my evolution of my own definition of therapy and what healing is like has changed and evolved.
[00:41:12] John: And with the clinicians that work at my group practice, you know, under my supervision, I'm asking them that question all the time. Like what's your current definition of like what's your best guess as to like what healing is and what actually needs to happen here in the room or in the work you're doing for a client to heal?
[00:41:28] John: And I think we should always be evolving that, that definition, right?
[00:41:32] Dr. Nathalie: Yeah, absolutely. Cause like the field keeps evolving, just like terminology keeps evolving. I think what we know it's so interesting to see, you know, the evolution of like neuroscience and interpersonal neurobiology. And it's just proving what indigenous people already knew, right.
[00:41:48] Dr. Nathalie: It's kind of, it's like the science is backing up. that have existed for thousands of years, but maybe we're erased or hidden or, you know, not validated in some sort of way.
[00:41:59] John: Yeah. [00:42:00] My last question for you, and I also want to hear a little bit about your book with the time we have left is something I've always noticed about you and putting in IFS terms is you do this work, this anti racism work from a place that is very self led, even going back to, you had mentioned, The debates the other week and you engage these conversations in a really self led way that in my experience allows for conversations to open up.
[00:42:26] John: How do you manage to do that?
[00:42:29] Dr. Nathalie: I mean, I think, I think part of it is my, my natural way of being in the world, but I think that I am so this anti racism journey has been so grounding for me. Right, and I think it's brought so much self awareness of what was the anti Blackness that was, like, living inside of me in my spirit, like, creating noise or not allowing certain parts of myself to flourish, because I think so much of I think for a lot of minoritized people, they either [00:43:00] become very loud or they become very quiet.
[00:43:01] Dr. Nathalie: And I was on the like very quiet side. And so finding my voice has been part of my journey. You know, I think so many of the somatic practices has helped me calm my nervous system down, but also my relationship to rage. has actually been really helpful. Like I used to be afraid of rage and now I'm like, wow, rage really helps me clarify like what, what limits or boundaries have been violated.
[00:43:24] Dr. Nathalie: What are, where are places where I'm not allowed to show up as my full self. And so I think, you know, I meditate daily. I love the practice of yoga on the mat and off the mat. I think of racial justice as a spiritual practice and that like, we're all interconnected, right? And so if I harm you, then that's also harming me, right?
[00:43:44] Dr. Nathalie: And if, if you're not free, then I'm not free. So like, All of these like abolition, liberation, anti racism, we're all in this together, even if it doesn't feel like we're in this together. And that keeps me anchored.
[00:43:59] John: So [00:44:00] beautiful. What I know and what we know as therapists is when people feel like they're on their back foot, they shut down and they don't grow.
[00:44:07] John: And so on one hand, like, I think a lot of folks that are let's say if we're having a conversation in the realm of social justice, it's like some people. That well, if someone feels like something's being jammed down their throat, that's when defenses arise. And it's like, what are you defending?
[00:44:23] John: What's a part of you defending? And. On the other hand, it's like, okay let's not totally cater to this white fragility idea or that right. This idea that like white people can't handle talking about race. And on the other hand, realizing that there are many layers of protectors and reasons why people freeze up or shut down or get pissed off and then become more polarized.
[00:44:43] John: So it's like, yeah, We, if we go back to our basic skills as a therapist and getting really curious about one another and being like, I wonder how this person came to believe what I believe I've been living in California now for off and on for 10 years, but my practice, even when I lived in, in North Carolina [00:45:00] was very different in that I had clients that had very different beliefs and ideas and were, you know, multiple election cycles that we're going through.
[00:45:07] John: You, I had actually ironically more religious diversity there than I have in San Francisco where things are truly like. A bubble and everyone assumes you believe what they believe. Right. But like for me really having to go back to like curiosity and compassion and being like this person who might believe something that is opposing to my beliefs, how did I come to my beliefs?
[00:45:30] John: Right. How did I come to the, you know, the things that were just kind of in the water growing up or believing what my parents naturally believed and then my Best friends. They believe what their parents believe. It's like, there's no coincidence that a lot of that is just passed down and inherited until we take a look at it and take an inventory and go, okay, this is what I actually believe, but for me, like having compassion for how people got here and how people form their beliefs keeps me in curiosity more than in judgment, and that's really, [00:46:00] that's really important for me.
[00:46:01] Dr. Nathalie: Absolutely. And in, in my book, Mindful Race Talk the first, the first part of the book is, is mindfulness foundations. And so part of what I talk about that in that is the eight C's from IFS. I talk about that as like being part of the foundation of this. So I love that you named like curiosity and compassion, right?
[00:46:19] Dr. Nathalie: As two of those C's. And so thinking about. So much of, for me, like mindfully talking about race is about having a mindfulness practice of some sort, whatever you call mindfulness, because we're going to get activated and can we notice and can we notice how our body moves away or pushes against or tenses up or shuts down, right?
[00:46:39] Dr. Nathalie: Like knowing, knowing all of these trauma responses that can happen or stress responses. And, and then, you know, this thing about threat, right. Is this idea of. Part of what I talk about in the book is understanding where people are in their racial identity development, right? That if I show up to every conversation about race and only have a hammer, [00:47:00] right, that's not going to get me far.
[00:47:02] Dr. Nathalie: But if I am curious about where this person came from and their understanding of race and all these other elements about themselves, and I am curious about who they are as a whole human, not just this one slice of their life that's Then I can show up more expansively. And I think the other person doesn't doesn't have the same defenses pop up.
[00:47:24] Dr. Nathalie: But also, you know, on the flip side is how do we, I talk a lot about creating our capacity to be able to sit in discomfort, right? It's like, yeah, people are going to say things to me that are uncomfortable. But if we're in relationship, maybe I value you. A staying in the conversation to be able to work through it, or at least to have a better understanding of each other.
[00:47:43] Dr. Nathalie: And I think there's so many skills we need as a society to be able to talk about hard things, because it's not about all of us believing the same things, but it's us having the capacity to have the conversations that get things done that help the most people and [00:48:00] understanding that the systems want us to be divided.
[00:48:02] John: 100%. It's like in any attachment work, right? There's rupture and we have a lot of rupture happening all over the place. But what also makes it good, you know, healthy attachment is the repair, right? And being in it. And a lot of times that repair doesn't happen. It's just the rupture and then more separateness.
[00:48:22] John: And to me that is terrifying. That is a crisis of our, of today, of today. That I think we should all be very worried about and working on.
[00:48:32] Dr. Nathalie: Absolutely. And what is the, what is the world we want to leave for our children and our grandchildren and like the people we love, right? If we're not going to build the skills and capacity to solve these problems, or at least come to the table and have the conversations, then it's just going to get worse.
[00:48:50] John: This idea, you know, There are a lot of children's books now, and there's, we have one around racism. We would read it to my daughter. Anti racist baby, I think it's called.
[00:48:57] Dr. Nathalie: [00:49:00] Yeah.
[00:49:01] John: Starts with this idea that racism is is taught. Which I find to be a hundred percent true in that my daughter and her C qualities is inherently compassionate toward other people.
[00:49:11] John: Pretty much everyone that is her natural ability. And even in her preschool in San Francisco, that was quite, quite quite diverse in terms of race, race and ethnicity, at least and just seeing how much of a non issue that was for her. It's like, this is our starting point, right? Like little kids are this way.
[00:49:30] John: Until they're not. So,
[00:49:33] Dr. Nathalie: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that some kids get protected from learning about race. Like the, our history of racism more than other kids who are, are reckoning with it on a very personal level. And I think a lot of the conversations we're having in our society is I think we need to pivot towards like, you know, How do we protect all of our Children, [00:50:00] right?
[00:50:00] Dr. Nathalie: All of our Children. How do we see value in all of them and figure out what do they, what do they all need to thrive?
[00:50:06] John: Yeah, parenting is such a tremendous opportunity for all of us to do this work. At least I find in my own daughter or even for her, like in us living in a city and her for the first time asking how a person becomes homeless, right.
[00:50:21] John: Or unhoused. It's like, okay, how do I, where do I start?
[00:50:28] John: Yeah, exactly. But, but trying right. And explaining compassionately some factors or some guesses or some, some, some things that can contribute to not having a home. And how that comes to be in our society. And, you know, she's just like. Oh, right. It's like a new idea to her. Well, we've filled the time.
[00:50:47] John: It's gone by so fast. Nathalie, thank you so much for doing this. Of course, let people know exactly a little more about your book, how they can find it and how they can learn more about you and your work. And we'll put links in the
[00:50:59] Dr. Nathalie: feel [00:51:00] free to check out my website. Dr net Edmund dot com. There's a There's a tab there for consulting my membership community, and there's a tab there for the Mindful Race Talk book so you can, you can purchase it.
[00:51:12] Dr. Nathalie: hardcover, ebook, audio. And I'd love to see people in a workshop or just in a book club talking about these things and building their capacity to talk about this with their colleagues, with their clients, with their kids, with their family.
[00:51:26] John: Yeah. Thank you so much. Now it's so good to see you again.
[00:51:29] John: Congrats on the book and all your work. And Yeah. Can't wait to see what you do next.
[00:51:35] Dr. Nathalie: So nice chatting with you, John.
[00:51:37] John: Keep in touch. Thanks for listening to another episode of going inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend.
[00:51:48] John: You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy. com. See you next time.