EMDR and IFS with David Polidi
EMDR and IFS with David Polidi
In this episode of Going Inside: Healing Trauma from the Inside Out, I had the pleasure of speaking with David Polidi, a fellow podcaster and social worker practicing IFS and EMDR. We delved into the transformative power of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy, sharing personal experiences and discussing its ability to heal trauma and foster self-discovery.
Key Topics Discussed:
Transformative Power of IFS Therapy
David shared an impactful IFS session where he connected with a part of himself that was a drowning child. Through self-energy and patience, this part underwent a spontaneous unburdening.
Integration of Spirituality in Therapy
We discussed how spirituality can be seamlessly integrated into therapeutic practices.
Continuous Learning and Sharing in the IFS Community
We expressed gratitude for the opportunity to learn from and share with other experts in the field like Bob Falconer and Michael Hunter. It's important to spread these insights to a broader audience, enriching the collective understanding of IFS therapy.
Learn more about David at https://www.empoweredthroughcompassion.com/
Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] David: Do you play Jenga? My crazy metaphor is that healing trauma is like building that thing up. And, and when you get trauma, it's like the whole thing tumbling down. You're talking about going slow in this work. And I feel like that's so important because if you're building up this Jenga mountain, if you go too fast, You're gonna re traumatize the person there's a risk that it's like we're doing this work That's so important, [00:00:30] but we could also hurt the person so we don't want to go fast fast fast I know that as quickly as you're right The society is like fix me give me a pill and fix me as quickly as you can I'm out the office, but it's like no no no no no this is a relationship And the healing journey is just that.
[00:00:46] David: It's a journey.
[00:00:53] John: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. [00:01:00] Join me, trauma therapist John Clarke, for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self discovery.
[00:01:17] John: Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy. com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. David Polidi is my guest today. I'm excited to welcome him to [00:01:30] the show. He's a social worker. He has a podcast called Empowered Through Compassion. Today, We're going to be talking about IFS and EMDR, how to integrate the two, and we're going to see where it takes us.
[00:01:43] John: Um, David, thanks again for being here. What, what else should people know in terms of, uh, you know, kind of expanding on that, that, that intro as to who you are and how you got here.
[00:01:55] David: Yeah. Yeah. Well, first I want to say, uh, thank you. For, um, [00:02:00] having me on your show. It's an honor to be here. I'm, I'm excited about talking with you and talking about IFS and EMDR.
[00:02:09] David: Uh, I think you hit the main points. I'm a, I'm a therapist. I, um, social worker and, uh, yeah, I love the both models. And I really believe that the integration of the two just makes them stronger.
[00:02:29] John: Yeah, [00:02:30] yeah. Can you talk more about how you came to each model? I mean, I've heard a little bit about this. Um, Spoiler alert.
[00:02:38] John: I was on David's show recently empowered through compassion. So we've already kind of done some form of this conversation, or at least with you asking me the questions, but, um, I'd love to hear, you know, some of that story again as to how you came to each of these models and where you're at with them today.
[00:02:55] David: Sure. Um, well, I guess I've always loved [00:03:00] counseling. Um, when I was in college, I took some counseling classes. I actually hated them and got into geography, but, but in my heart, just learning about, um, psychology, it was always kind of fascinating. And I like being with people. I work in the schools. And then, um, after that, I started working in the community.
[00:03:25] David: When COVID hit, uh, the community work wasn't really [00:03:30] kind of the best place to be. I was a supervisor at that point and I had a lot of people that were really worried about going into the community. And so a lot of it was kind of getting more and more centered on, uh, zoom and telehealth. And so I kind of pivoted and, and I realized like at that point, this is a good time to really do one on one work.
[00:03:53] David: go deep and start doing trauma. There was just so much trauma kind of popping out everywhere. So I took an EMDR [00:04:00] class. I always wanted to, I love EMDR, but, uh, but I took a class in it and, uh, it really kind of changed my life. You know, I, I think the class itself was, was, you know, the teacher was good. Um, but I met some people there.
[00:04:15] David: And, uh, and then one person in particular, we started meeting every week and then other people started joining in. So we have every week, 5 people and they're experienced counselors doing EMDR. And, uh, [00:04:30] and, and we, we share, you know, Oh, I read this book. I read that book. Let's talk about the newest movie that, that has, you know, some kind of taste of memory and memory reconsolidation or something.
[00:04:41] David: And then one of the people in the class actually said to me. Let's talk about EMDR and and then I was after that I just drank the Kool Aid so to speak but uh started doing EMDR and and that definitely I feel leveled [00:05:00] the work that I was able to do with people and so then doing that and the EMDR has just been Recently, it's kind of taken over my life a little bit.
[00:05:10] David: It's, it's been, you know, and, and I really admire the work that you're doing with your podcast because I see on my end having a podcast, you know, the pay is, is it's not like you go into it wanting to be a millionaire because, because you're not going to [00:05:30] be more than likely. Um, it's a lot of work and it's a lot of, you know, you definitely need to love it and be committed to it and putting out regular content.
[00:05:41] David: Um, and the rewards are huge. I mean, I was looking through your guests. And your guests are similar to my guests and they're the kind of people or they are the same people They are the people that like I could just listen to for hours and hours And it's like I live I I hear me [00:06:00] talk to them I hear you talk to them and they just they have so much wisdom that it's like I think you know what you're doing is a gift.
[00:06:08] David: Um to to put that stuff out there and uh, Yeah, it's just it's it's been a really incredible ride
[00:06:17] John: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. I mean, you know, you and I share a similar mission with this stuff and started. Our shows are on the same time and, um, I basically just had the, [00:06:30] the sense that yeah, number one, um, trauma is everywhere.
[00:06:34] John: People are realizing that and coming to therapy for it or seeking out all different types of therapy for it. Um, I know how much EMDR and IFS have changed my life. Um, and so. You know, just the thought of, I want to do everything I can to help get this out there into people's hands. Um, yeah, I think one thing that [00:07:00] really, one difference between EMDR and IFS is like, um, like doing EMDR on yourself, not quite recommended.
[00:07:09] John: Um, although some people maybe do or some people go to YouTube and, you know, type in BLS, EMDR, BLS and watch the little dot go back and forth. Um, I wouldn't recommend doing that. Um, on the other hand, IFS is not only a therapy model, but a [00:07:30] spiritual model and almost a way of life. And so bringing that model to people, even through like a podcast and talking about it is something people can kind of start doing right away.
[00:07:40] John: Or I was talking to someone recently and he said, you know, he started reading no bad parts and basically did every exercise, you know, the guided meditations and went as far as he could with it on his own. And then went to a therapist to kind of continue that work. And like, that's something that to me makes, you so, so unique.
[00:07:59] David: [00:08:00] Yeah, I, I completely agree. I, I think that, um,
[00:08:06] David: I think I'm kind of maybe switching my answer here. I completely agree. And I'll put a little caveat in that. I think yes, you know, I F s, um, as a model is really about trying to have more awareness of what's going on inside. In your inner world. And so that does seem like, [00:08:30] you know, we could do that wherever we are.
[00:08:32] David: We, it's just mindfulness and, and getting to know your parts. I like to, for myself and for my clients, like have them map out parts, um, by, by drawing them, by, by moving movement, you know, like, what is that part? We're just being aware of like, where does that part feel? Where does it feel like it is in your body right now?
[00:08:53] David: And maybe if it's in your heart, put your hand on your heart and just send some love to that part. Or, you know, so, so I think there's a lot [00:09:00] of ways to externalize your parts and, and feel your parts. And that's something that I don't think we ever become like, Oh, I know how to do that perfectly. I think it's this ongoing developmental kind of process that we're always kind of getting.
[00:09:18] David: more and more aware of how to connect with ourself. Um, so that is that what you do. I think with EMDR. You could there's eight phases at [00:09:30] the MDR. And so like if you're talking about the second phase Some people like wrote him Breyer talks about in his book He's a big one for meditation So he sees that as like the the phase to getting ready for the processing so stuff like that I think that's where IFS and EMDR go hand in hand Both of them are wanting you to, you know, pause a little bit, slow down your life, focus on yourself, [00:10:00] focus on what you're needing, and really listening to what's going on inside.
[00:10:05] John: Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. Um, maybe you can keep going a little bit on that or on, again, the integration of IFS and EMDR and how, like, what does it look like for you lately as a practitioner to be kind of integrating both?
[00:10:26] David: Now you're getting personal because, uh, [00:10:30] my personal life, I am actually kind of in a state of transition where I'm building up my client load. And so I was in this wonderful practice, um, in Massachusetts where I'm at. And when I started diving deep into the IFS, Um, I, I was kind of like, I want more and more and more and more and more.
[00:10:53] David: So I went and applied to IFS telehealth collective. [00:11:00] And, uh, so I'm part of that now and in there I'm little by little, I have five or six and, and, you know, every week there there's somebody else. Um, but anybody who's in Massachusetts. Um, could, could call them up and, and, you know, we have people, um, I'm available.
[00:11:19] David: Um, so I'm, I'm in the beginning phases. And so I think with the beginning phases with the integration of the two models, I don't like to go right [00:11:30] into, um, the, the processing of the trauma. And, and I think a lot of the people where I'm at, they're like, They're heavily on the IFS and then I'm like coming into them going, how about EMDR?
[00:11:42] David: I'll do EMDR too. Um, but, but the real, the agency that is really about IFS. Um, but that being said, I think EMDR is really just how I see the world. You know, it's like, I got glasses. Right now I have, you know, a bunch of glasses. I have one [00:12:00] glasses that's, that's these right. And then I have another glasses, which is my EMDR glasses.
[00:12:04] David: And I have another one, which is my IFS lenses and all of them together just help really focus things. And, and make the colors really vibrant and dance. And so I'm always kind of like, and, and my consultant, his name is Bruce Hersey. And he's an amazing guy that, uh, he's co founded this, um, Institute called Syzygy [00:12:30] Institute with Michelle Richardson and, uh, and, and, and they give classes and, and you can even become certified in IFS informed EMDR through them.
[00:12:42] David: And so this is coming from him. Um, I think that, you know, you, you're always kind of seeing, where are you internally as a therapist, where are you in terms of the eight phases? Which, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to go in order [00:13:00] and there's a lot of, um, leeway in terms of flowing through the eight phases, but where are you in them and then where are you in terms of the work that you're doing with an IFS and so, you know, we start out really kind of mapping out that system.
[00:13:21] David: And, and doing history and getting to build that relationship, which is crucial in both models and then understanding, [00:13:30] okay, what, what are your goals, but before we could just rush to like your goals, let's, let's check in with your system and let's get a chance to, to know, um, what are the players here and then, you know, we'd go a little bit, take a couple of steps and, and go, okay.
[00:13:48] David: Who pops up and let's get to know them and get some friends as we continue down our journey.
[00:13:57] John: Yeah, that that's really well said. [00:14:00] Um, the pacing of the work is very salient to what we do and especially in the realm of. trauma work. And I don't know if you find this to be true, but I find that a lot of times, you know, it's like trauma happens fast and yet the healing happens slow.
[00:14:21] John: But a lot of times what happens is clients come in and they also want the healing to happen fast. Um, so they might come in and like, okay, can we [00:14:30] start the EMDR? Like in the first session or the second session, they're talking about the reprocessing, right? Um, there, there's this sense of like, hurry up and get this out of kind of, uh, you know,
[00:14:42] David: It's so true.
[00:14:42] David: And I'll give you a metaphor. Do you play Jenga?
[00:14:48] John: Uh, I have. Yes, I do.
[00:14:50] David: Alright, so let's you and me play a game of Jenga. And we're gonna, you go, and I go, and you go, and I go, and we're kind of having fun. And you take out that little Jenga piece and put it [00:15:00] on top. And I guess one object of the game is to try to not make it fall down.
[00:15:07] David: When you're building it up, but but let's put that aside Let's say you and I are playing this game And our goal is to build it as high as we possibly can where you know it gets to the point where you can't take out another piece because now you're messing with the legs or you're Messing with a you know a middle layer that if you take it out of something So we're just trying to build it as high as we can my [00:15:30] crazy metaphor is that healing trauma is like building that thing up And when you get trauma, it's like the whole thing tumbling down.
[00:15:40] David: So we're building it up, trying to get a form as high as we can. But yeah, when trauma happens, it's like destruction basically.
[00:15:49] John: Yeah. That's a great metaphor. I might steal it, but I will, I will reference you. I'll give you credit where credits do. Um, [00:16:00] yeah. And so, so slowing it all down and. Realizing that the healing slow, perhaps slower than we would like at times.
[00:16:11] John: Also, we're in a culture, at least here in the U. S. of efficiency and productivity. Can I say one more thing? Please.
[00:16:19] David: Okay, I apologize. I, I like interrupting, so please, please bear with me. But I want to, I want to go back to the, to the metaphor because it just kind of popped in my head. I'm like, oh, oh, [00:16:30] let me tell you this one more thing.
[00:16:31] David: So what, what I just came up was, um. You're talking about going slow in this work. And I feel like that's so important because if you're building up this Jenga mountain, if you go too fast, you're going to re traumatize the person. There's a risk that it's like, we're, we're doing this work. That's so important, but we could also hurt the person.
[00:16:56] David: So we don't want to go fast, fast, fast to build it as quickly as you're right. The [00:17:00] society is like, fix me, give me a pill and fix me as quickly as you can. I'm out the office, but it's like, no, no, no, no, no. This is a relationship. And the healing journey is just that it's a journey. And you know, yeah, we're not going to try to like, just take it on for years and years.
[00:17:16] David: And as long as we can. But we kind of need to allow the process to unfold the way the process needs to unfold. And, and so I'd like the Jenga thing where, you know, you have somebody who's overly anxious or they have a part that has [00:17:30] urgency. They go, they topple the thing down. Great. Now we're back at the beginning.
[00:17:35] David: Now we're re traumatized.
[00:17:37] John: Yeah. Yeah, man. And I can attest to that. You know, when I first got EMDR trained, um, you know, went to the weekend one training in like 2015, 2014, 2015, I think it was. And, um, we were doing our like practice sessions in another room and this was in person. This is personal. before COVID.
[00:17:59] John: So [00:18:00] everything was in person and, um, we had all spread out in our, you know, pairs or whatever. And, um, you know, I wanted to be a good client. So I brought something very real to the session. Uh, I used to be an EMT and, um, uh, as you can imagine, have some trauma from that and some real specific calls that, um, You know, haunted me and stuck with me.
[00:18:24] John: And so I thought, again, like I'm going to be a good client, give this therapist, something real to work with. Um, [00:18:30] and I ended up paying for it because it's not really her fault. She was new to the model as was I. And so. We started the session, started the reprocessing, got into it a little bit, and about halfway through, she got, she kind of panicked and got stuck and started flipping through the manual and didn't know where to go or what to do, and she kind of like forgot about me.
[00:18:56] John: I was just sitting there. Literally getting flooded and back in the [00:19:00] memory of it. And I was, I'm so polite and I'm from the South that I like, didn't want to say anything, but here I am like,
[00:19:07] David: I'm from New york. I'd be like, yo, I'm here.
[00:19:10] John: I should channel more of that energy. Cause I just sat there. I'm getting completely flooded and frozen and back in that memory out to the point where she was just like, I don't know what to do.
[00:19:24] John: I don't know what to do. She went and got the, uh, the instructor who came and had to work with me for probably half an hour [00:19:30] to kind of get me back. Um, so it was a horrible experience. I mean, I can even feel it in my body right now as I remember that. And, and yet, It was so valuable in teaching me the potency of EMDR and, uh, the importance of, um, when you're in it, keep going the pacing, you know, sticking with it, staying present with your client, letting them know I'm here, right?
[00:19:53] John: I'm in this with you, even if we're bouncing around a bit, or do we go back to the touchstone memory or whatever it is? Like, [00:20:00] and then we think about some of the, the eight C's of IFS encouraged being one of them, right? A lot of times, whether it's IFS or EMDR, it's like having that courage to keep going and keep walking into The darkness a bit with clients.
[00:20:12] John: Um, but man, I just remember that so vividly and walking out of that train being like, okay, now I know firsthand how, how dangerous this can be, right. To, to put someone back in their trauma like that, right. Or if an EMDR therapist is at the end of a session and you're in the thick of it, right. You don't have time to.
[00:20:29] John: [00:20:30] To wrap up, right. And help the client come back down. Like it can be really scary.
[00:20:35] David: Oh, absolutely. No, that's so true. And a lot comes up inside of me. Cause one thing is, you know, both you and I are consultants and I found for myself, having a consultant is invaluable.
[00:20:51] John: Yeah. No,
[00:20:51] David: it's so good to have somebody.
[00:20:54] David: with you as a therapist to be able to care for your parts that come up [00:21:00] to be able to kind of help you through that because there is definitely an art to it all. The other thing that comes up for me is that You know, particularly with EMDR, I think with IFS, there's, this is a loaded statement for IFS, so I'll keep it off the table for IFS, but for EMDR, I think you need to be a therapist.
[00:21:26] David: I think that being whatever kind of [00:21:30] practitioner, you know, you are. Um,
[00:21:32] John: yeah.
[00:21:32] David: And maybe that's even a coach, you know, but you need to be somebody who is comfortable going into these arenas of trauma and being able to fall back on your training because not everything is absolutely, it's a model. So it's going to guide you.
[00:21:49] David: But at some point you're going to have to say, you know, if it comes for like my own expertise within my field or the model, you know, I'm going to go with my expertise in the field every [00:22:00] day.
[00:22:01] John: Man, you nailed it. And I tell my, you know, I have clinicians at my practice. It's a training practice that don't forget you're a therapist first.
[00:22:11] John: You're a therapist first, who has now learned EMDR or is using EMDR. Um, and a lot of times this is an important reminder to them because they'll have a similar kind of, Oh crap moment in the middle of a session of like, what step am I on? Where am I at the protocol? Right. Like, do I do the cognition now?
[00:22:26] John: Like, um, And it pulls them out of the moment they forget to be [00:22:30] present or a client gets flooded and they are scrambling. Right. So to your point, I totally agree. We have to have these basic skills of kind of, um, yeah, having solid clinical foundation. I agree about that. This should just be used by therapists.
[00:22:46] John: Uh, the EMDR should just be used by therapists, um, again, because of its potency, which I really, I really respect and honor. And that's part of why it works. And also part of why we have. To just be really judicious with how we apply it. And, and again, how [00:23:00] we pace it, right? Cause the client or like me at that, in that demo, like I wanted to be a good client and get right into it.
[00:23:06] John: And also I thought, Hey, maybe this EMDR could help me with this memory that I've been, that has been really sticky for me. Really, really, really hot memory. So it's like, um, There's that too. The clients are well intending of like, I want to be a good client. I want to bring the real stuff. Right.
[00:23:21] David: And can I make an assumption here?
[00:23:23] David: And you tell me if I'm right or wrong assumption. My assumption is that I kind of know this because you told me, but, [00:23:30] um, you were in that class. This was before all of your learning and awareness of IFS.
[00:23:37] John: Right. That's right.
[00:23:38] David: Because now with IFS, there's another layer, which is something that I don't think EMDR brings to the table, but I love saying this when you combine the two, you got the scalpel of EMDR that can be very helpful for trauma.
[00:23:54] David: You need to check in with all the parts. You know, I was talking to Annabelle, uh, [00:24:00] McGoldrick and, and there's other others as well. Um, yeah, you know, I, IFS really kind of, sets the stage to see that we're going to get permission from everybody inside of us. So you as that client in the class had a part or a couple of parts that were like, Oh man, this is cool.
[00:24:22] David: I'm going to be good. I'm going to do what I need to do. And we're going to go get this trauma and kick it out of our body. But [00:24:30] I wonder, I don't know, but I wonder what would have happened if you had that moment to really go in and see if there was any parts. That had any peers or any parts that did have any concerns.
[00:24:43] David: And if they, and if they were addressed, maybe that would have been a very different experience.
[00:24:49] John: 100 percent part, part of what I love about IFS is. When we, we go into someone's system completely [00:25:00] respecting, respecting and honoring their system and its protective nature. Its protectors who have been doing their job for a very long time and I'm just some dude walking into the system, right?
[00:25:10] John: So I always kind of try to have that humility in someone's system, right, of like you're the boss. Protectors are the bosses. Um, and we slowly earned their trust, perhaps, you know, um, which can take, it can be fast. It can take a very long time. It just depends. Um, you know, I help run [00:25:30] the, um, the, the training groups at Stepping Stones, um, uh, for, for folks learning IFS.
[00:25:38] John: One thing that I, um, I have started suggesting that they do in these demos is let the client know to let the parts know that nothing needs to happen today. And to also invite protector concerns around doing this demo in this setting on zoom with a bunch of people or with like an instructor in the room, whatever.
[00:25:58] John: Um, cause [00:26:00] oftentimes they'll get into the session and things will start to kind of get sticky or someone will be kind of bouncing in and out of insight. Um, and the. The clinician is like wondering why, or they're a little frustrated, right? And it's like, why won't this work go deeper? Um, and even halfway through a session, if you stop and just go ahead, just ask inside any, any parts have concerns around doing this session right now, any parts have concerns around going a little deeper, or if you want to go further, any concerns have, uh, any parts have concerns about me, [00:26:30] right?
[00:26:30] John: This, This guy, right? Who's, who's doing the session. Um, and even if there aren't, I, I find this really helpful just to invite those in honor that we're in this strange setting. And also parts have an idea that this therapist doesn't know what they're doing, right? Or to your point with my EMDR training, it's like, I would have had protector concerns that this therapist is new and doesn't know how to do EMDR yet.
[00:26:53] John: No disrespect, right? Neither did I. Um, yeah. And those parts could have kept me safe in that moment for [00:27:00] sure.
[00:27:01] David: Yeah. Well, and there's a double thing here that's going on too, which is if we're kind of focused on that room where you're in your training and you're being the good client, um, you're checking in with your parts.
[00:27:16] David: I would say too. And again, I realize it's not an IFS training, but at that moment, wouldn't it have been great if the person who was doing EMDR with you also checked in on her parts?
[00:27:29] John: [00:27:30] Yeah, , uh, that could have also saved things from derailing, right? Yeah. So we also have parts that really wanna get it right too.
[00:27:38] John: So again, with folks learning MDR and even my clinicians who really want to get it right, and they wanna be precise, they wanna adhere to the model so much that it ends up, you know, affecting the work or the client gets a sense of like this therapist. Is not present, they're not with me, they're not competent.
[00:27:56] John: Um, because of parts that really wanna kind of get it [00:28:00] right or perfect or stick to the script perfectly.
[00:28:04] David: And, and can I tell you an issue that I have
[00:28:08] John: please? Uh, this is the, It's the place to do it.
[00:28:10] David: tell you an issue.
[00:28:11] John: Hopefully it's not an issue with me, but it, you know.
[00:28:13] David: No, no, no, no, no.
[00:28:15] John: I'm just joking.
[00:28:15] David: Um, , um, I have an issue with some EMDR. Some of the ways that are sometimes EMDR is done and [00:28:30] taught and experienced. And I might be upsetting a lot of people. I think there's a lot of people that do it in a way that is beautiful. And, you know, I was just talking with, um, the people notice that I'll give a plug to that podcast.
[00:28:44] David: They're amazing. they have a really good sense with it. However, when you dive into the history of EMDR, the little knowledge that I have, that I've heard is that there is sometimes a feeling of [00:29:00] rigidity where this is the model you stick to the model. You don't go off the script. You really do it this and this and this way.
[00:29:09] David: And when people kind of. Try to buck the system, so to speak, they, they kind of get excommunicated or, or we're using IFS lingo. Um, and, and maybe not again, I don't have all the information, but I think there's some amazing models out there that, um, [00:29:30] I'll throw out the name. I, I wish maybe one day, either you or I could talk to her.
[00:29:34] David: Um, Laurel Parnell, she has, you know, the attachment. focused EMDR. And that's beautiful. But I think if we're going back in time to the original intent, and it was this amazing model to heal trauma, and it did. But it was for, you know, a certain type of trauma that was not complex and it was very, you know, single incident [00:30:00] trauma.
[00:30:00] David: You had a car crash. Now let's talk about it.
[00:30:02] John: Yeah.
[00:30:02] David: And, and now with neuroscience and everything else being introduced into the field, there's, there's definitely an awareness that it, it shouldn't, or can't really be simplified. And boil down to just the basics that as you get more and more into the world of EMDR, you're always learning.
[00:30:24] David: There's always more things to learn. There's more and more protocols, but then there's also like this art to it [00:30:30] where you're sometimes even creating your own protocol in the moment, um, from where you're at, as long as you understand, you know, the importance of all the basic stuff. So what am I saying? I, I, I guess I'm saying that, uh, you know, that that openness is is so important.
[00:30:49] David: And I think that, you know, I don't know how much when people learn in the basics, how much this is emphasized. Maybe sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. [00:31:00] But I think that human to human contact that that human to human Connection and then co regulation So crucial.
[00:31:12] John: Yeah. Yeah, I want to talk about the co regulation piece for sure
[00:31:21] John: I'll say something briefly on the protocol piece or the you know, I tend to practice EMDR [00:31:30] more fluidly maybe in part because Yeah, I've been doing it a while. And also I'm, I guess I'm a person that has to kind of make it my own to do it. That's not to say I don't still do it the way I learned it, but, um, to me it has to be more fluid and now that I integrate it with IFS and I'm doing both in the same session, um, uh, you know, I am kind of doing it.
[00:31:58] John: The way my intuition tells me [00:32:00] to do it, right? Um, and trying to, yeah, leaning on my own self energy to help me figure out how to do EMDR in this session. Um, and that's a little bit different. I think, like, on one hand, my qualm. Early on with any protocol treatment is like, I get that it needs to be unified in part to then go teach it and deliver it and say, this is the way you do it.
[00:32:24] John: And you follow it this way. And this is when you ask for the cognition and then they rate it zero to 100, um, [00:32:30] versus like the cognition might float up naturally. Right. Or they have this belief of like, I deserved it. Right. In relation to the memory that you're working on or whatever. Um, but I, um, What was I saying about that?
[00:32:46] John: Kind of losing, losing the plot here.
[00:32:50] David: we're getting so into this conversation and into this stuff that we're both like disappearing into the, into the, the [00:33:00] great models that we're talking about.
[00:33:03] John: Sorry, making a model, um, protocol in part to deliver it and say, here's how you do it, and here's how to replicate it.
[00:33:10] John: Also, um, it's easier to study when it's a protocol. Something like DBT, right, is very easy to study and say, this worked. Or you could have 10 different clinicians do DBT and stick to the modules page by page and say, this is like, They did it in a pretty unified way, a uniform way, so I get that too. Well, and let's face it, it makes the research a lot easier too.
[00:33:29] John: [00:33:30] That's what I'm saying. That's my whole point.
[00:33:31] David: If we're talking about models that we're trying to get out there into the world, and we're trying to get them evidence based. It helps them to get to prove it tremendously. Yeah,
[00:33:43] John: that's right. That's right. Yeah. So I guess it's a balance. Right. And then again, also like from the Institute's perspective, wanting to maintain a certain quality of quality control of EMDR.
[00:33:55] John: I get that too. Right. That's important as well. So I think it's a dance. [00:34:00] Yeah.
[00:34:01] David: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:34:03] John: Yeah,
[00:34:05] David: I completely agree with that.
[00:34:07] John: Where else do you want to go from here?
[00:34:12] David: Um, wow, I could go anywhere. Um, I don't know, how serious do you want it? Do you want it to be sick with IFS and EMDR? Go on to something else.
[00:34:25] David: I, I could ask you a question and, and switch roles here. Ask you one of [00:34:30] my questions.
[00:34:31] John: Always open to that. Yeah.
[00:34:33] David: All right. I'll ask you, or you can ask me, you can turn it around. But, but what I love to talk about is, um, how, how do you bring in spirituality to all of them, you know, and, and
[00:34:45] John: that is, it's a huge question.
[00:34:47] John: Yeah.
[00:34:51] David: How would you fit your spirituality understanding, you know, in, into, therapy in general and then into EMDR and then into [00:35:00] IFS and into the integration of the two of them.
[00:35:05] John: Yeah, this is a great question and a huge one. Um, and I would say I'm right in the thick of finding my own answers with that. I will say the first time I did an unburdening with the clients and IFS unburdening with the client, it was one of the most spiritual experiences I've ever had or witnessed in my life.
[00:35:27] John: Um, yeah. And the first time that happened, I [00:35:30] had the thought that this is true healing and a lot of what I've done since 2009 being a therapist was, um, not quite healing. Not quite like that. And seeing, um. This part go from this scared, frozen place to coming into the present, to releasing its burdens and using one of the elements, to installing new qualities, to finding its new home in the present with my clients.
[00:35:58] John: Um, [00:36:00] just the beauty of that moment, how natural that all came. to the client, even though they didn't have to understand what we were doing here. And to an extent, I was just following the protocol, like early on, like literally had the unburdening steps, like in a piece of paper, right? Just like, okay, now ask it, you know, does it want your help getting rid of anything, perhaps using one of the elements?
[00:36:20] John: I'm like reading this question, word for word. Um, So that, that really changed my life, honestly. And once I realized that that was [00:36:30] possible for clients and for me, um, that changed everything for me. So that's one piece that is deeply spiritual for me to bring it back. I think what's funny is a lot of times with IFS, The conversation starts by talking about parts and multiplicity.
[00:36:46] John: I almost think the conversation should start with talking about self and really get client, getting clients on board with this idea of self. Because I think that's where you can also wrap in their spirituality [00:37:00] and however they see that. Right. Um, yeah. However they want to define self as your authentic self, um, divine energy, a God image inside of you.
[00:37:11] John: Um, um, You know, it's, it's like, I want to invite all of those perspectives in for them to just see that there is this well of, um, purity and goodness and love inside of you. And we're, I'm basically here to help you tap into that and bring that to parts of you that are,
[00:37:27]
[00:37:27] David: I got it. I got a challenging [00:37:30] question for you then.
[00:37:31] David: And we can turn it around. I don't want to steal the show and make the interview. Um, but my challenging question for you is. Then what do you do if you started out by focusing on self energy? Cause I do think there's, there's definitely a beauty to that. And, and you know, that, that feels like that's such an important key part of the model.
[00:37:52] David: But then you have a client who has a part that loves to do spiritual bypassing. [00:38:00] And that part comes out and goes, Oh boy. Yes. I will tell you all about my spirituality. And then that part gets to be the biggest one.
[00:38:11] John: I want to say I encountered this recently with a client and here's my answer. It's going to feel like kind of a cop out, which is to me inside of me, there's a felt sense of what self feels like.
[00:38:25] John: Inside of me. And I know that since, and I'm getting to know it [00:38:30] more, I can usually kind of tell when it's here, when I have a great percentage of that versus when I have less of a percentage of that same goes for my clients, I usually have a sense of the kind of texture of what self energy feels like in the room with my client.
[00:38:44] John: And so when I had a client recently who was just kind of agreeing with whatever I was asking and kind of like speaking about the part of like, I don't know, Ask the four year old, you know what? It's afraid of. Oh, yeah. So I asked and it said it's kind of like afraid of, um, kind of [00:39:00] afraid of mom leaving.
[00:39:01] John: Right? And it's like, is, is that, is that you assuming you know what the four year old is afraid of? Or did you ask the four year old? Right? So I had a sense that some of that was happening to write kind of an intellectualizing of what's happening here. And again, kind of being a good client going along with it.
[00:39:16] John: But to me, the texture of that felt different because it was. Yeah. Earlier on in the session, when she first encountered the four year old, there was a major slowing down, her complexion changed, her body relaxed. She was tearful. She [00:39:30] just felt this love toward the four year old. Can you send it that love and see what happens?
[00:39:34] John: And she was in that, and that texture and that quality is very different than where we were at. Two minutes later. That's my answer. Yeah, that's your turn.
[00:39:44] David: And then you just call her out on it. You say, I wonder,
[00:39:47] John: well, I just clarify. Yeah. Yeah. I just ask. Yeah. Is this? Yeah, exactly. Basically. And even going back to, is it still you in the room with this four year old?
[00:39:57] John: Are you now watching a part interact with this? [00:40:00] Right. Or yeah. And sure enough, it was a part. Okay. So think that part, can you go ahead and step in and make sure it's you seeing through your eyes The four year old and being with the four year old, can the four year old still sense that you're there? And we had to reestablish that connection right there in that moment.
[00:40:16] John: And I said, just take your time reestablishing that connection with the four year old just to really make sure that self depart connection is there. And it's true before we continue. So,
[00:40:27] David: yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. [00:40:30] Oh boy. I thought you're going to ask me that. Okay. So I got a story for you. I will be, I will be personal.
[00:40:40] David: I love it. So I, I believe that we're all human beings and we're all in this human experience together, experiencing things. You know, together going through COVID, I was going through COVID just like my clients were going through COVID where it's not like the separate kind of, you know, I'm the therapist, you're the client.
[00:40:59] David: So [00:41:00] when I was studying EMDR, I was saying to myself, I'll go to EMDR therapy. I got stuff from my past and I'm going to try to try out what it's like in the other seat. And right now I'm currently in IFS therapy and it's amazing. But so I had this experience where I was. With a part and trying to bring as much self energy into the space that I could and I don't remember [00:41:30] exactly what I was working on within myself with therapy, but I remember I have a very clear vision of the part that I was working with and it was a kid.
[00:41:40] David: That was just drowning. It was, he was in the bottom of the sea, weights on him, and he just was like not doing well. And you know, trying to go in and feel your inner parts and help them, give them love. I, I went in, I try to like do like a lifeguarding thing and then pull them [00:42:00] out. And I was just sitting with him.
[00:42:02] David: I was just like, as myself, I guess, or myself energy, just kind of sitting with him and waiting for something to happen. And, and, and my therapist was great and she just kind of, you know, we took our time and then all of a sudden the guy that I was sitting with, the little boy, just like melted and turned to water and I was like, oh man, what's wrong with me, what's wrong with my brain, that's not, like, where does that, [00:42:30] I didn't know where in the book, like, we sit with a part and it just melts.
[00:42:35] David: And, uh, I was a little bit kind of freaked out and what she said was really brilliant, but she said that was just a spontaneous, you know, unburdening like, well, I mean, she had something at first. It wasn't like, are you not? It was more along the lines of, um, well, how does it feel to you? You know, like this bar is just a burden.
[00:42:57] David: Like what, what is the energy? What is the feeling behind [00:43:00] it? And it was a sense of like freedom where the little boy had turned into water and was now like this free water within the ocean that we were sitting by. And so instead of sitting there being sad, it was that that energy was just kind of like, Like laughing and, and, and splashing around.
[00:43:20] David: So I think at that point, she's like, that feels like a spontaneous unburdening. And it was so powerful, you know, I mean, going back to the question of, you know, how do we bring [00:43:30] spirituality in the room and in the work, there was something just so spiritual to me about that experience. where it was somatic and it was, you know, you felt it, but it was also like, you can feel a little bit of a sense of like a higher power there as well.
[00:43:48] David: So that was, that was pretty intense.
[00:43:51] John: Wow. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Um, yeah, my, my like inclination [00:44:00] would have been just to ask you to keep connecting with the water, right. Or ask the water a question. Once it turned to water. Um, I also had the thought, you know, recently, um, do you know this guy, Michael Hunter, he's a.
[00:44:17] John: IFS practitioner. He's been a Chinese medicine doctor for 25 years. Um, and now does IFS does a lot of, uh, helping clients find their spirit guides. So he, there's an [00:44:30] episode on my show about that with, with Michael. Um, I have a list of
[00:44:34] David: things that I want to listen to. That one was on my list. I, I definitely Oh, okay.
[00:44:40] David: I'm so interested in it. Because you talked to Bob Falconer too, right?
[00:44:44] John: I talked to Bob as well. Um, so we both did. Of
[00:44:50] David: So what did, what did, yeah, but my Hunter say, well, Michael,
[00:44:53] John: in, in the episode, he walked me through this, um, the process. He takes clients through that [00:45:00] and he's trying to help IFS practitioners connect with their first spirit guide, and he says, and this is.
[00:45:05] John: Rooted in Chinese medicine is that the first spirit guide that we can all connect with is water And so he walks you through this process of connecting to water as your first spirit guide So I'll let him explain the rest, you know in that episode, but he would not be surprised with anything That spontaneous unburdening and the water elements though.
[00:45:26] John: Definitely check out that episode, but, um, yeah, [00:45:30] that would, that would make a lot of sense to, to someone like him.
[00:45:35] David: That's so fascinating. And that brings me back to podcasting. Because you and me, we could probably like, uh, just riff on, on the different people that we've talked to. There are so many good people out there, you know, when, when you look and there, there's like an endless supply of just amazingly rich conversations and just really brilliant people that like you start talking [00:46:00] to and I get blown away, you know, I get blown away by like, wow, look at all this amazing work that you're doing in the world.
[00:46:07] John: Yeah. Yeah. And to your point, like, It would be a shame if we don't get their voices out more into the world. And, um, the by product also is that I end up learning a ton from them, from these experts who are renowned in their area, especially these different kind of pockets of IFS that, that they're in. Um, [00:46:30] So I'm really lucky that people keep saying yes to coming on the show and, and offering that to both me and in the audience.
[00:46:38] John: Um, yeah, you're, you're right. We could keep riffing about this stuff and about, um, all these wonderful guests and figures and personalities within this realm. And, um, it's just great to, to keep these conversations going. So, um, yeah, that being said, we're, we're Just about at time, David, um, anything [00:47:00] you want to make sure you kind of get out there today in this episode, any thoughts lingering from what we've talked about?
[00:47:06] John: Um,
[00:47:10] David: no, I, I think we said, uh, we said a lot. I mean, I, I think we can go on for another hour, two or three, but, but I think we hit like some really. Cool points in our discussion.
[00:47:24] John: Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate it and I appreciate you making the, the, uh, interview more of a [00:47:30] two way street too and throw a question my way.
[00:47:33] John: Um, I really, that's, that's fun. Um, yeah. Well David, that being said, um, how can people learn more about you and your work and even reach out to possibly work with you?
[00:47:45] David: Yeah. Well definitely check out my, my podcast Empowered Through Compassion. Um, And I, I'm working on my website. So, uh, it's a work in progress, but soon it's going to [00:48:00] sparkle.
[00:48:00] David: I, I, I look to like other websites and I'm like, man, those look good. Your, your website looks really nice. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm working on that to, to really kind of showcase the podcast and also to, to try to showcase all the guests. So when I have a guest, you can see like all of the stuff that they contributed to the field on like their own little page or something.
[00:48:22] David: And then, uh, so, so that, and that's going to have ways to contact me on, on, you know, all the social [00:48:30] media stuff sites. Um, and then if you're interested in IFS therapy, uh, definitely IFS Telehealth Collective. Um, has some incredible people there, um, that are leading the way. Um, and they're in, they're in multiple states throughout the country.
[00:48:47] David: You're in Massachusetts. Um, I'd love to talk with you and also consultation, you know, if anybody's looking for consultation, um, I love talking with people, whether it's one time or, [00:49:00] or, you know, we, we start something where it goes every week or every month. Um, yeah, get in contact with me. I love meeting people.
[00:49:10] John: That's great. Awesome. David, you're the man. Thank you so much for, for doing this. And, um, yeah, I'd love to have you back anytime. So we'll have to,
[00:49:18] David: I got my soul brother here, so we're, we're, we're so similar in, in, in the IFS, EMDR, the pocket. So yeah, I love talking.
[00:49:28] John: Yeah. [00:49:30] Awesome. Awesome. Thank you again. And, um, yeah, I'll see you in the next one.
[00:49:36] David: This sounds good. I look forward to it.
[00:49:39] John: Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy, and apply to work with me one on one at johnclarketherapy.com. See you next [00:50:00] time.
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