Childhood Trauma with Kalonya Jones
Childhood Trauma with Kalonya Jones
In this episode of Going Inside, I sit down with Kalonya Jones, a complex trauma specialist, to explore the deep and often overlooked impact of childhood trauma. We discuss how trauma shapes identity, relationships, and mental health, even when people don’t initially recognize their experiences as traumatic. Kalonya shares her insights on how healing requires acknowledging past wounds, breaking generational cycles, and cultivating self-compassion.
Trauma isn’t always obvious – Many people believe they had a great childhood but struggle to remember it, which can indicate unprocessed trauma.
Healing starts with support – The presence (or absence) of a caregiver during distressing moments shapes how we process trauma and navigate emotions.
Breaking generational cycles – Unhealed trauma can be passed down through families, but recognizing these patterns allows us to create healthier relationships and self-perceptions.
Learn more about Kalonya at:
https://thelotuscounselor.com/
https://www.instagram.com/thelotuscounselor/
https://www.facebook.com/lotuscounselor
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kalonya-jones-lpc-ncc-cctp-aa1360a5/
---
Resources & Offerings:
🧠 1-Month Grace Period with Jane – Use code JOHN or visit: https://meet.jane.app/john-clarke-ambassador
🌱 10% Off at Grounding Well – Use code GWJOHNCLARKE or visit: https://www.groundingwell.com/GWJOHNCLARKE
🧠 10% Off at Dharma Dr. – Use code JOHN or visit: https://dharmadr.com/JOHN
🌱 Join Pathways to Self – My IFS basics course for therapists and practitioners: https://www.johnclarketherapy.com/pathways
🧠 Download My Free IFS Meditation – Get access here: https://www.johnclarketherapy.com/free
Connect with me:
https://www.instagram.com/johnclarketherapy/
https://www.tiktok.com/@johnclarketherapy
https://www.youtube.com/@JohnClarkeTherapy
---
Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] Kalonya: Most people don't think they have trauma. Let's just put that out there. I'm like, do you have any traumas? They're like, no, I had a great childhood, but I can't really remember any of it. Oh, that sounds like trauma.
[00:00:15] John: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me, trauma therapist, John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self discovery.
[00:00:40] John: Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy. com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Kalonya Jones is a complex trauma specialist. She grew up in Texas and moved to Philly in high school and began her path with learning about mental health. She graduated from Villanova [00:01:00] University with dual degrees and loves working with clients who have experienced trauma.
[00:01:05] John: Kalonya, thank you so much for being here. What else should people know about who you are and how you got here?
[00:01:10] Kalonya: Thank you, John. That I feel like trauma is probably touched everyone's life. And I also feel like the root of everything in the DSM 5 kind of correlates to trauma, just as my personal, preference or reference, as far as like the DSM 5.
[00:01:25] Kalonya: But yeah, that's pretty much it. And I feel with my we'll probably get into it, but like a little bit of like my background has let me to be a therapist, which most of us have a story.
[00:01:37] John: Yeah, I'd love to get into that this topic more of trauma touching everything and really being at the heart of many issues, whether it's anxiety, depression, addiction eating disorders.
[00:01:48] John: Yeah, you name it. I'm curious. Yeah. Your journey as a therapist and someone who helps people with trauma and just how you conceptualize it. What is it? What does [00:02:00] it look like? How do people know if that's the issue they've got? And then how do you help them through it?
[00:02:05] Kalonya: Awesome.
[00:02:05] Kalonya: Thank you. I've been asked this question a lot, being like a trauma specialist, but I just really feel like trauma is when you've been, life has been like, then you get hit with an event, right? And you're just like, what the, it overwhelms you to the point that you're like, I don't even know what to think.
[00:02:21] Kalonya: I don't know how to cope. I don't even know what tomorrow is at this point, cause I'm so rooted in this event that just occurred. And then you have a feeling of like hopelessness or that nothing, like no one can save you maybe from like this experience. And then we carry on that trauma, especially like when we don't have a caregiver underneath the age of 18, who can give us a hug and say, Hey, it's going to be okay.
[00:02:42] Kalonya: This is a really messed up situation, we'll get through this. Yeah, that's pretty much what leads to trauma. An event the response to the event and then who comes in and helps us navigate those emotions and everything else around that event that occurred that was so devastating.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] John: It's interesting because this piece around who helped us with the event. And when we think about ways to. Mitigate trauma to make things have less of a traumatic impact Being with people especially in the case of let's say a kid experiences or witnesses something traumatic, right? and what can happen is The kid is completely overwhelmed.
[00:03:26] John: Their system is overwhelmed flooded They don't know what sense to make of it parts of them shut down their nervous system shuts down or is over overactivated and they need help in that moment making sense of it and having safety be quickly reestablished. Yeah. But in a lot of cases that, that doesn't happen, right?
[00:03:46] Kalonya: No. Especially if the caregiver hasn't dealt with their own traumas or it re-triggers them. It's so many different factors that can come into an event.
[00:03:57] John: Yeah. We get into this trauma, co complex trauma [00:04:00] layer pretty quickly.
[00:04:01] Kalonya: Yes. I don't know if this is okay for me to talk about, but like the school shootings is like something that really came to mind as far as like a child and as a teacher, you're like, you're trying to save the children and there's like an active shooter, so like that's number one, hearing the violence of the guns.
[00:04:16] Kalonya: going off. That's the trauma. Maybe seeing your classmates get hurt. That's another trauma. But if the teacher is overwhelmed as well, or every other administrator is overwhelmed, then the kid is left on their own to figure out like, how do I go to school? How do I connect my own world sense of safety to this world?
[00:04:33] Kalonya: Yeah.
[00:04:34] John: Yeah. No I don't think that's too much to talk about for the show. In fact, why not talk about it given that it is. Shockingly and horrifically a part of our existence here, at least in this country, and there's no doubt that there's not enough being done about it, both on the front end and also the back end of how do you help people and kids and communities move on from trauma and [00:05:00] reestablish safety to your point when a container has been ruptured, right?
[00:05:04] John: Like a classroom that was once safe and has been Presumed safe, and is all of a sudden not, and the teacher that is tasked with keeping the place safe can't keep it safe, right? And that container has been completely blown wide open. Yeah.
[00:05:21] Kalonya: It's a lot, it's a lot, but that's what therapists come in, to help navigate those emotions and experiences and the triggers and the nightmares and everything else that comes along with that event or any other event that could be, perceived as traumatic.
[00:05:35] Kalonya: Yeah.
[00:05:35] John: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Where else do you want to take the conversation?
[00:05:40] Kalonya: Like a certified trauma specialist as you I don't know if you specialize in trauma, but I'm guessing that you do as well since like we're good. Good. So I feel like we have to know a lot of different systems or we just have to know a lot of different tools and techniques to give our clients.
[00:05:56] Kalonya: So some of the things that I work on with, because. [00:06:00] If we're going to talk about it, we'll also talk about it. I'm a black clinician. There's like a big stigma around people of color, just anyone coming to therapy in general. So for me I don't necessarily take the CVT route when it comes to treating therapy.
[00:06:14] Kalonya: I'm mostly like positive psychology and how do you talk to yourself? That's like a huge thing, right? Like how do you, what do you say to yourself in the morning, when you first wake up and that can navigate the rest of your day and even how you feel about yourself. But for me as like a certified trauma specialist, like what I try to do is just hear the person's journey and then give them tools that will be great for them, not trying to make them feel bad about the trauma that occurred.
[00:06:39] John: Yeah. I'd love to hear more about your experience. As a black therapist and serving folks I've had clients who are are a person of color and have A tremendous amount of stigma to work through in order to even be here, or in my case, be a person of color asking for help from a white dude that looks [00:07:00] like me.
[00:07:00] John: And there's that layer. That's in the room. And we may or may not name it and work through it, and process it.
[00:07:07] Kalonya: Okay. I would say it's. Hard to navigate, I would say, but any therapist, but as a black therapist, like just trying to just have therapy, just be a conversational piece, just letting people know that like girl or guy, right?
[00:07:24] Kalonya: Like we're healing throughout our conversations, even if you don't really know it. But I think. Honestly, what you like to your point as far as like naming the elephant in the room, I think it's like really crucial because at the end of the day, we all have the knowledge that is necessary to give like individuals, families, like schools, right?
[00:07:43] Kalonya: The assessments and tools that they need to navigate trauma. So I would say for me, I name it and I say, hey, I know I'm, a black therapist and this is probably like a little bit unusual to be speaking to someone, but hey, trauma doesn't matter what color you are. It affects you.
[00:07:59] John: So I
[00:07:59] Kalonya: [00:08:00] just try to navigate it that way and just letting everyone know that non judgmentally that it's something that occurs, it's like grief, something that unfortunately occurs in everyone's life.
[00:08:11] John: For sure. Do you I can't remember, do you have experience with IFS, internal family systems or? What background do you come from clinically with it?
[00:08:20] Kalonya: I love IFS work. I wish I can delve in more, but financially it's really expensive to get onto like in those classes, but it's so like worth it.
[00:08:29] Kalonya: I love just like being able to tap in different parts of your body. It might heal those parts of our trauma. Oh, I can't think of the movie. There was a movie on Netflix like a while ago. Sorry, something just popped up on my screen. But there was like a movie on Netflix a while ago when I was talking about.
[00:08:44] Kalonya: system and like how you can like heal that. I always tell my clients think about a little boy, a little girl inside your body. That's just like knocking it. Whatever age you had that trauma when it was eight because you had a car accident, 12, because someone bullied you, whatever the [00:09:00] case may be, that 12 year old little girl, boys knocking inside saying, I'm scared.
[00:09:04] Kalonya: And I'm still getting bullied or I'm still in this car accident and come save me. Let me know that everything is okay. Yeah. So I love IFS work. Love it. Love it. Love it.
[00:09:15] John: Yeah.
[00:09:16] Kalonya: How about you?
[00:09:18] John: Yeah. Yeah. Big fan. I'd say maybe 90 percent of our guests on this show are from the IFS world.
[00:09:24] John: And it's a big part of what we talk about here. The piece I was thinking about, and when we think about race is also, IFS's term would be legacy burdens, but burdens that have been carried and passed down for generations or legacy burdens that that one might carry just by being black, for instance.
[00:09:43] John: Yeah.
[00:09:44] Kalonya: Yeah enough, because it's a difference, like when some of my Caucasian clients come to me and they're like, I feel guilty, for either the past or something their grandfather just said two days ago, and I'm like let's just work through it, and just navigating that.
[00:09:59] Kalonya: And like, how do [00:10:00] you have a different mindset, right? Then the legacy that has been built prior to your board. Yeah. Interesting.
[00:10:09] John: Yeah. Yeah, walk me through how you work with trauma in the room. Okay
[00:10:16] Kalonya: So most people don't think they have trauma Let's just put that out there. I'm like, do you have any traumas?
[00:10:22] Kalonya: They're like, no, I had a great childhood, but I can't really remember any of it. Oh So I just tried to navigate it as a I'm very, as you can see now, I'm very like bubbly comical because I'm like, trauma can be so heavy, but I'm always like trying to bring comedy in a sense like to it because it's so heavy to talk about.
[00:10:43] Kalonya: So let's say there was like a car accident that happened. And my client is you know what? I'm okay with it. I'm fine. And I just got back in the car the next day. But actually, when I was at the stoplight, I saw like a car that looked the same that hit me the other day and, I felt some type of way, but I was okay.
[00:10:58] Kalonya: I kept driving and I'm like that's a [00:11:00] trigger response. So let's work through that. And then I think just like naming it and just saying yeah, it's okay to say that just because you weren't in a war. But no, no offense to veterans or any, but getting your limbs blown off and having like little T traumas, which could be car accidents, the bullying the childhood abuse sexual abuse, any of those things that add up to like big T, like war traumas.
[00:11:25] Kalonya: And I just tell, my clients, the reason why you're probably triggered a lot is because there's been little T traumas and he added up to this big war zone inside your body. And when I say it like that, they're like, Oh, sugar. I get it. Yeah.
[00:11:43] John: Yeah. I'm not exempt. Defining it and diagnosing it as a big part of the work, and just getting on the same page about. What this is and on the idea that maybe this thing is still affecting your life, right? Maybe it's still with you. You mentioned that piece at the beginning about trauma being underneath [00:12:00] many DSM diagnoses. Maybe you can say more about that too.
[00:12:03] Kalonya: Yeah. I look at like the family tree, like when you ever think about the family tree, like the root structure and it goes up.
[00:12:09] Kalonya: I always think like in the roots. is the trauma. And that's like the childhood underneath the age of 18. So to me, like the ground force ground, so to speak, is like 18 and beyond. And that's just your effect did life after, your trauma, and how it shows up in your relationships and your workplace in your spirituality, everything.
[00:12:32] Kalonya: Yeah. So I just I tried to just say that a lot of times anxiety can come from trauma or depression, of Can come from trauma. Just like having those negative thought patterns. A lot of times can come from trauma. Or having that consistent, person in your life that's very toxic can, lead to a lot of trauma.
[00:12:50] Kalonya: So just, yeah, just trying to like, so it's funny, like you said, diagnosing a lot of my clients since, primarily I do work with a lot of African American clients. I do have like across the board, [00:13:00] like Latino agent in Caucasian, but a lot of my African American clients don't want to be diagnosed.
[00:13:05] Kalonya: Okay. They just want to have talk therapy and just talk about, things that maybe I wanted to tell grandma, but grandma said, go to the Bible. The Bible maybe is helpful, but not helpful enough to move me through this, or I want to stay in this relationship, but this thing keeps coming up, this traumatic event that keeps reminding me, or hitting my relationship like in the face.
[00:13:26] Kalonya: So yeah, and I just, I think I just try to be hopefully like a nonjudgmental word of reason and just know that like you were saying before it's life, it's trauma, it's grief, it's life. But like, how do we cope from it? How do we heal from it? How do we deal with it? How do we navigate, how do we face it?
[00:13:45] Kalonya: And then that's how we're going to come from the other side.
[00:13:50] John: Yeah. So getting them on the same page about it, about what it is and What we're doing here or whatever we choose to call it is maybe less important [00:14:00] than what we do about it. Or what we do next. And so once you get them on board with kind of what we're doing here in therapy.
[00:14:08] John: Where do you go from there with your clients?
[00:14:10] Kalonya: Oh God, I was just going to write that down so I won't forget it. But I usually talk about the generational, like we talked about the legacy, I'll talk about your generational cycles and breaking those. Because a lot of times, like what we didn't think was traumatic that our grandparents did or great grandparents did that passed down to us was like, Oh, wait.
[00:14:27] Kalonya: That was really traumatic. Maybe we should do this to, my unborn child or like a child that I have now. So I just, I try to make my clients think beyond themselves because you have cousins or nieces or nephews or sisters or brothers or aunties or whoever who can also be benefited from your healing.
[00:14:48] Kalonya: Through therapy because I love it when another of my client auntie or someone's Oh what's your therapist name? Cause you seem like you healed or you're healing. And I like how this healing looks on you. [00:15:00] Let me get her name really quickly. So just, just like I said, navigating the different nuances and just letting people know that it's okay to have someone to talk to you about like crappy things that happen in your life.
[00:15:15] John: It seems for the most part, stigma is going down stigma around. Mental health services, it's obviously not true across the board and for certain groups and ages and demographics and you mentioned religion that can be both a really protective factor for people. It can also be a factor of. A barrier to getting treatment right to getting help.
[00:15:37] John: But I even think about like younger generations, in our practice, we also see teenagers and there's a lot of teenagers that are just naturally pretty open and down for therapy and it's just like a normal thing, which certainly is not the case for everyone.
[00:15:53] Kalonya: I love that though.
[00:15:54] Kalonya: I want it to be normal because, even I have my own therapist that I think is so crucial for it. [00:16:00] Therapist to have their own therapist, but just for anyone to have a therapist. It's like having a cheerleader in your corner whenever anything goes right in your life. And then also navigating when those times when things don't go right or you don't get that promotion or maybe the relationship didn't work out the way you wanted it to.
[00:16:16] Kalonya: Yeah, just navigating life and just knowing there's just one foot in front of the other. as slow or as fast as you want to take it.
[00:16:24] John: Totally. Yeah. I would have a hard time trusting a therapist who hasn't either been to therapy or isn't actively in therapy. Yeah, I think it's an essential part of our training.
[00:16:37] Kalonya: Yeah, and yeah, speaking because it's like I said before, we have our own journeys and stories and I have my own a score, which, I don't know how many people know about the score, but it's like a 10 part question in it. I think if you score three or four or more meetings. Yeah that you have like basically trauma you've had trauma in your life.
[00:16:59] Kalonya: I don't get [00:17:00] into my score, but I know
[00:17:02] John: Yeah,
[00:17:03] Kalonya: Some tics like with the divorce that took place when I was like 12 and I had to navigate as you saw my bio moving from texas lovely hot texas to Philadelphia in my teenage years was very cold. We moved in the middle winter, which was like hot in texas So it was like a one, location wise it was already like Just a shock, right?
[00:17:23] Kalonya: And then from down south to up north, that's a complete shock, and then losing your friends and abandonment and just so many different things that happen. And then my mother ended up having a stroke as well too. So that was like another thing that was a medical trauma, right? That happened in our family.
[00:17:39] Kalonya: And I'm around the same age I don't know what to do other But she would have been the person to console me during that traumatic event. But then there is like cousins or aunties, but they didn't really know like how to navigate that. So it was like, you said we need our own therapist because like we [00:18:00] all have our own stories that we've been through and like, how can we.
[00:18:04] Kalonya: Be the best for someone else if we aren't constantly like clearing our mirror or like working through our sugar honey iced tea
[00:18:15] John: Yeah, I mean that this again this piece around Helping people through what they're experiencing especially when you're a kid or a teenager a young person and you have less agency in your life, right?
[00:18:28] John: You know your family says we're moving to Philly And it's what? That's an immediate loss of agency because it's not up to the kids. You might not even have gotten a warning or whatever and it's not to say that experience has to be inherently, traumatic or have ripples, but it's also helping a kid make sense of and process in the moment and along the way How it's impacting them, how it is to say goodbye to your friends, right?
[00:18:53] John: This is how we can help kids, emotionally process what's happening in their worlds, right? But we don't always [00:19:00] do a great job. I'm a parent myself of a four and a half year old. And it's really hard. And to your point, if I'm not resourced, it's really hard to do it for her, when she needs it, or she's making sense of her world.
[00:19:10] John: We just. Recently and took it, had a really big move and had to say goodbye to everyone. And that, that was difficult for her and difficult for me. So it's I've got to be as resource as I can be. And even just opening the door for her feelings, even if I don't know what to do with them, or I can't fix them, or, those parts of me that want to rescue her from her sadness of saying bye to her friends, but.
[00:19:31] John: Just allowing for that to be there, right? I think has worked for me or feels like a good option, right? It's that sadness is a normal part of life. Transitions are a normal part of life and I can be with you and validate those feelings as you move through it Versus not talking about it at all. Yeah, right or some of the parenting that I got which is You know, don't be so ridiculous.
[00:19:55] John: You should be great. So grateful for some kids don't have any friends and you [00:20:00] have whatever but that only triggers, teaches shame, guilt, shame, and, hiding one's, one's feelings.
[00:20:07] Kalonya: I like that you said that. I'm a parent as well too. It is very, cause you want to protect your kids like from everything, every scratch, boo, boogeyman, anybody, you're like, I'm gonna be that superhero, but like you said, we can't control life as much as we want to, even for the family that we have, but just.
[00:20:27] Kalonya: She's so young, but it's it's so good that she knows that process and knows how to navigate that feeling of sadness, whether it's like going to daddy or getting like a stuck animal, or calling a friend because four year olds nowadays not to do tap, not to use tap is better than I do. Yes.
[00:20:41] John: So true. She's already sending emojis. She's I want to send emojis to my friend. I'm like, okay. Absolutely. I yeah, but yeah, I think it's about letting kids know that they are not too much. For us their emotions are not too much for us, but so many of us, you [00:21:00] know Do have those burdens from childhood of I'm scared and a parent or a teacher or a coach or someone says suck it up Don't be ridiculous or if you're like me being a boy.
[00:21:10] John: It's don't be so sensitive, you know Don't be a wuss or expletive And you know that is very much alive and still because of people's You know, inability to feel their own feelings or the feeling their feelings are unacceptable. And so I shut down the feelings and others. Because it triggers that same thing in me.
[00:21:30] John: So I need to shut that down.
[00:21:31] Kalonya: Yeah,
[00:21:32] John: right.
[00:21:33] Kalonya: It's like grief, right? it's like as soon as It's almost like people don't want to touch you and you're like, what?
[00:21:42] John: Yeah, like
[00:21:43] Kalonya: what's wrong and it's oh no nothing you just had a grief, and it's yeah It's one of those things that like how close do I get how?
[00:21:50] Kalonya: How do I navigate this? But yeah, I'm like, I like the fact that you were able to talk with your daughter though and help her navigate that.
[00:21:58] John: That piece about it being contagious, [00:22:00] it's this thing on empathy versus compassion, empathy being like, I'm feeling what someone else is feeling as if it's my own.
[00:22:06] John: And a lot of us therapists were very empathic, right. Or highly sensitive people, this whole thing. Compassion is I am being with you in your pain, but in my separateness, like we're together, but separate and honoring our separateness. Or if it's with your kid, like not taking on their overwhelm as your own.
[00:22:24] John: But being solid and being in your separateness, but being together with them and that's a hard thing for us to do when for a lot of us, especially therapists blending or and meshing with family or parents or an alcoholic, a parent or whatever being completely Or if I come home, I've been having a really good day and my partner is really stressed.
[00:22:47] John: So I get really stressed too because it's I don't want to be having a good day if they're like having a hard time. And so we self abandon and take that on. And It's a classic trauma response.
[00:22:57] Kalonya: I like that. That's, it's funny 'cause I use a [00:23:00] CT as a part of like therapy tools, so to speak, like within my practice.
[00:23:04] Kalonya: Yeah. It's just like accepting and the com compassion and commitment towards change, but like compassion towards yourself too, and just knowing that it's okay to be bad sometimes. It's okay to get angry. Yeah. It's okay to be sad. It's okay to be happy, when something happens. Yeah. And speaking to that, if you're okay with me okay, but I love I don't, I guess I got to explain it, but I love trauma narrative therapy and just like being able to have a client just tell their journey because like you're saying as far as like being a boy and people saying, suck it up, it's all, also two people here that didn't happen in your childhood.
[00:23:39] Kalonya: What are you talking about? That never happened. I was the best parent ever. And you hear these different things and you're just like tell me your story. What was it like from your perspective? How did you feel about the situation that happened?
[00:23:53] John: Yeah.
[00:23:54] Kalonya: And then accepting that and knowing that it's okay.
[00:23:56] Kalonya: Like you're saying to accept those feelings and emotions of that may be [00:24:00] incongruent. Then the person is telling you that didn't happen or suck it up or whatever the case may be. You're like, Oh. But this is my story, my journey, my, my ownership and how I'm going to navigate it throughout life.
[00:24:12] John: Hearing about that, if you're, let's say a parent of a grown child, a child, someone who's now an adult hearing about that can trigger parts of the parent that hold shame and guilt or of, we tried our best and you're sitting here complaining about the school you went to.
[00:24:30] John: Or whatever, the shoes you had or whatever, like you had it great, or you had it better than I had it. We do that whole thing. And it's hard to just honor someone's experience or someone's memory of a time, right? It's also hard to hold both, which I can acknowledge. There were some good things about the school I went to and some hard things, right?
[00:24:48] John: And hopefully like my parents can hold that too. Without getting completely flooded by guilt or shame or defensiveness. Yeah. And then we're just, we're shutting down each other's. [00:25:00] Yeah,
[00:25:01] Kalonya: I'm waiting for the day for my kids to come to me and be like you messed this up in my childhood.
[00:25:06] Kalonya: I'm like, ha, I know I did. I'm sorry. What else did I do?
[00:25:10] John: You cared too much, mom. You validated my feelings too much, yes.
[00:25:16] Kalonya: But it's breaking all generational cycles that we talked about earlier and being able to, if you do have feelings of shame, What does that mean for you?
[00:25:26] Kalonya: How can we navigate that? How can we let it go? Right instead of holding on to and having that elephant another elephant in the room You already got one now you got two you got three, you know How many elephants could we squeeze into this little room?
[00:25:38] John: Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, just de shaming and compassion is just such a huge part of what we do and when we can offer that to our clients and hope that they can internalize that and Turn it toward themselves and parts of them that are hurting And then to extend that to people in their lives, it really is [00:26:00] monumental part of what we do and what we're trying to cultivate, as therapists.
[00:26:04] Kalonya: Yeah. We're game changers trying to change the world. One compassionate response at a time.
[00:26:10] John: Yeah. One collective emotional experience at a time. Yeah. The ACT stuff, acceptance and commitment therapy is wonderful. I think, because and for years I practiced. Lots of CBT, went to the Beck Institute in Philly, stuff like that.
[00:26:24] John: And CBT essentially says, we suffer because our thinking is wrong, right? Our thinking is distorted. So we need to challenge it and, reconfigure it, which there's no doubt it really helps. And a lot of times our thinking is twisted up or we're catastrophizing. But the acceptance and commitment therapy piece, I really like because it says, Like in, in Buddhist fashion, that some suffering is inevitable.
[00:26:47] John: Suffering is part of life and we suffer more because we resist our suffering. It's I'm scared and I hate that I'm scared. I hate that I'm afraid of giving this talk to the class or giving, a presentation at work or whatever. It's if [00:27:00] you actually could just embrace that and own that and accept that and go, yeah, I'm scared.
[00:27:04] John: And I'm going to give the presentation at work and people might judge me. And can I be a little more okay with that? Then you can paradoxically be set free from it. Doesn't mean it won't happen.
[00:27:14] Kalonya: Yeah, it
[00:27:14] John: actually might happen and you But you're prepared to actually roll with it.
[00:27:18] Kalonya: My brain before this.
[00:27:23] Kalonya: Yes. Nice. I like that. Yeah. That was me talking to myself before you're like, it's going to be okay. You're going to give yourself compassion. So I like that. I like that a lot, though because we don't give ourselves enough compassion, I think, in this world, and I don't know if it's societal, and a lot of times we're just, we're taught independence and pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and it's like, how can we be compassionate when you're always blaming yourself for something you didn't do right?
[00:27:54] John: Yeah. Independence is fierce independence at all costs is a, Is [00:28:00] in the fabric of our society and especially of our country, right? So people are rewarded by being a lone wolf and figuring out themselves and you know it's like I know generations like in my parents generation of it would be like a better thing to figure it out yourself or if you're depressed just
[00:28:16] Kalonya: Pick yourself
[00:28:17] John: up, right?
[00:28:18] John: It's just what are you depressed about, and that, that whole mentality that I think is pretty darn toxic, or at least can be in our, it just furthers our separateness, and in my case, especially among men, there there's this epidemic that not enough people are talking about, which is that men are isolated and depressed and suicidal and killing themselves at extraordinary rates.
[00:28:39] John: Yeah. And we don't really talk about the stigma around seeking help or saying my feelings are too much for me. Or I don't know how to be vulnerable or whatever it is, but I'm like it's happening, and we have a long way to go.
[00:28:52] Kalonya: It reminds me of the the report, but about loneliness and it being a pandemic.
[00:28:57] Kalonya: Yeah. Yeah. That's it.
[00:28:59] John: [00:29:00] Yeah. Yeah. Male loneliness is just absolutely massive. And I even have male clients that are. hesitant to tell me that they're lonely. And it's if you can't come tell a experienced therapist about your real feelings, imagine how hard it is out in the world to tell a friend or a coworker or someone.
[00:29:17] John: And the thing is sometimes it doesn't go well. I remember one time I had a male client who said, yeah, I don't know. I just really miss my friend. And I'm thinking about reaching out to him and being like, Hey man, like I miss you, and my client. Went and did it and it didn't go well, and like he got made fun of and the guy was like, you know what the hell and so it's but I see that coming from a place of pain, And like being knocked off, but it's yeah, it's tough.
[00:29:41] John: It's tough to find real connection I think a lot of people come to therapy for that or as us to be a surrogate for that
[00:29:49] Kalonya: And well, speaking to that, if I have a very few males in my, practice and I'm like,
[00:29:55] John: come
[00:29:55] Kalonya: on, man, I'm okay. You can talk to me. But I would love to just have more [00:30:00] males in general, because like you said, the loneliness.
[00:30:02] Kalonya: I didn't realize it. I feel like not until I started talking to some of my male family members and friends reading reports and I was like, really? But when I started to think about it, I'm like, yeah, my cousin really doesn't hang out with a lot of friends. My They, this family emergency and this family, I'm like, wow, wait, and it starts to like, make a bigger impact and you're like, hold up.
[00:30:26] Kalonya: Yeah. And we need y'all. We need meds. So it's talk to somebody, anybody, just talk, just try to talk as much as possible.
[00:30:34] John: It's tough, and also even being a father, right? There's a natural connection or can be with other fathers, but there's also, it can be isolating through that as well.
[00:30:43] John: And that's the only thing you have in common is your kid or your kids are like playing a sport together but men really need. Authentic, deep connection, deep, vulnerable connection. And not just the other dad at the soccer game or whatever, just like an activity buddy. And I don't know.
[00:30:59] John: I [00:31:00] know we didn't really plan to talk about this, but here we are. And I think even just like reaching out to. Friends that you do have if you're a guy dealing with loneliness just reaching out to a friend You know my best friend who's also a psychologist. We just hop on the phone all the time I was driving yesterday for 30 minutes.
[00:31:17] John: Just hop on the phone We just get right into it and just having that connection and making sure that's that's there And we're checking out on each other. But One connection can go a long way.
[00:31:26] Kalonya: Can it? And we're all connected. That's why it's such a stark difference from what society feeds us.
[00:31:32] Kalonya: And so we're connected to an umbilical cord, before we even got here. So it's like, how can we sever that as much as possible in society? Yeah, but us therapists, we have our work cut out for us, but we didn't go to years and years of schooling for, no reason. And I love what you said too, as far as like the obstacles, just to piggyback off of that in facing obstacles, like I said, with coming on here and I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so nervous.
[00:31:56] Kalonya: But I'm actually Buddhist and within my Buddhist practice, it is [00:32:00] talking about facing your obstacles, like head on and it's going to make you stronger, better. I'm like, no, I don't want
[00:32:05] John: to hear that
[00:32:07] Kalonya: crap. I just want to like, not have to deal with these emotions of fear, nervousness, whatever the case may be.
[00:32:12] Kalonya: But you're right. Like spirituality can help or hinder. Yeah,
[00:32:21] John: we all want to know that it's going to be okay, right? And sometimes just playing out our worst fear and then imagining how we would deal with it can be good. Like I come on the show and I'm nervous and people notice or whatever the fear is.
[00:32:33] John: And could I be. Could I practice being a little more okay with that? Even though there's parts of me that really resist it and want to be a certain way or perceive it a certain way, letting go is hard, but it's a, it's an option to us all at any moment.
[00:32:47] Kalonya: Can I ask you a question?
[00:32:48] John: Go for it.
[00:32:49] Kalonya: How do you get males to come to your private practice or what do you do? What kind of smoke signals, do you put out there to the world? You're like, hey, I'm [00:33:00] here. Come talk to me. Like
[00:33:01] John: I can't get them off of all of me. Oh good. No, I am I think just being a guy I get a lot of male clients I do because they assume And in some moments, rightly that I might get it.
[00:33:16] John: The experience of being a guy. And and I do get it, and I think I can communicate that. And, what's interesting, even though so I have more males than females, just naturally. But I, and while I do get it, there's also barriers to working with men, even when they come and they say, all right, I want therapy.
[00:33:35] John: And I want it to be with you because you're a guy. And I think you might get it. And I might get some part of their lived experience, but also I try to default to. Acting like I'm not from around here. I don't, I know what it's like to be me, right? But even if I'm sitting there with a dude that looks exactly like me, like a white dude from Virginia, who's now living in San Francisco I have to not let that blind me into any assumptions of I [00:34:00] must know what it's like to be you.
[00:34:01] John: And But there's still can be some hesitance, in the room to actually go deeper or be vulnerable or clients like male clients that want to prove to me that they're successful or they make a lot of money. And it's Oh yeah, man, it sounds like you make a lot of money. So there's some of those layers to of like toxic masculinity still comes into the therapy room, even between me and them.
[00:34:20] John: Even as much as I try to like help dismantle that and show that we can both be like. Real here.
[00:34:28] Kalonya: Nice. Just to give perspective, like the males that I've been having come to me have been like. Trying to navigate life with women, and like, how do I either talk to a woman or how do I stay in this relationship?
[00:34:42] Kalonya: Like those types of things. So it's interesting, but I have most more females than I do have males. I would love like a, like a, hopefully like a split 50 50 or like at least, yeah, that would be good. But yeah. So thank you for that.
[00:34:53] John: I think even saying in your case, like just saying, even on your website That you also work with men or even having a page of like [00:35:00] therapy for men And just saying like these are some of the issues I help men with blah blah could be a nice way to signal of like I'm open to working with men because I think yeah There's a lot of men that feel not only the shame but also fear of working with A female therapist or being judged, or if they are having relationship issues is it going to be weird to talk to a woman about that?
[00:35:20] John: And in most cases when we're, if it's a solid therapist, the therapist can help you and you can get that different perspective. And of course the transference is different with, a male therapist or female therapist. So I always encourage folks to have, try multiple therapists and have chapters of seeing different folks that evoke different reactions inside you.
[00:35:39] John: Unconsciously.
[00:35:41] Kalonya: I like that. I like that. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.
[00:35:45] John: We are, we've got a few minutes left. I'm curious. First of all, what this has been like for you. You mentioned the maybe some nervousness beforehand, but what's it been like to come and chat with me for a little bit and then anything you want to make sure that people hear from you today and then of [00:36:00] course how they can get in touch with you and your website and all that good stuff.
[00:36:03] Kalonya: Perfect. Thank you. As I was a little bit nervous before I worked through my, I talked to my dog but it's really good. It's just, it feels like how would do like in my therapy sessions, just having a, just a conversation, and I love the fact that you allowed me to navigate and then like we took turns navigating and like we went down the road together.
[00:36:22] Kalonya: So it's I, yeah. Thank you for that. I really do appreciate that. I would say for me one thing that I want to put out there that I use even now for myself for my trauma and trigger responses is the grounding technique. I know you've probably heard of this and I know a lot of therapists have, but I love it.
[00:36:39] Kalonya: I still use it to this day. I was using it before I got on here. But like the five things that you can see, and of course This is not therapy like in, in a five motion response to your shield. No, this is just like a technique that will be used with the therapist. But five things you can see, four things you can touch three things you can hear two things you can [00:37:00] smell and one thing you could taste.
[00:37:01] Kalonya: And I love that five, four, three, cause one, it feels like I'm a kid again. I'm like, Oh, five, four, three, two, one. Like I'm like Janet Jackson about to like, start like some new life. Like I don't anyway. But I like that because it's a quick reminder to, to help me de escalate any emotions that I'm feeling right now in the moment.
[00:37:17] Kalonya: And if you do want to connect with me as far as like social media or hook up with my website you can find me on Instagram. The handler is the Lotus Counselor. I don't even know how to say that I'm still getting used to social media, but it's the Lotus L O T U S Counselor. C O U N S E L O R.
[00:37:40] Kalonya: My phone number. 610 699 9475. I'm licensed in Pennsylvania and in New Jersey. Hopefully more states to come in. And then LinkedIn is my first and last name. And my website is www. thelotuscounselor. com. Everything is pretty much the Lotus counselor. So [00:38:00] if you just tag that in you'll find me on Google or anybody.
[00:38:04] Kalonya: Perfect. Yeah.
[00:38:05] John: Awesome. We'll put links to that stuff in the description show notes, but yeah, Kalani, thank you again for doing this for yeah, your time and your wisdom. It was a great conversation and I really appreciate you being here.
[00:38:18] Kalonya: I appreciate y'all. I was hoping you weren't going to be mad at me from yesterday when I kept messing up.
[00:38:23] Kalonya: I was like, he is going to be like, I don't want to meet with this lady anymore.
[00:38:26] John: Yeah. Part of me did feel that way, no, I'm just joking. I told that part to quiet down. I could be a nice guy today.
[00:38:33] Kalonya: Nah, that's parts of us. Be
[00:38:36] John: quiet. Yeah we sorted it out internally. But no, I'm glad you made it.
[00:38:40] Kalonya: Thank you. Thank you for having me and I can't wait to hear more and see more about your page too as well. 'cause I'm gonna be following you now, Instagram and stuff. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
[00:38:49] John: We'll keep in touch. Thanks again.
[00:38:51] Kalonya: Okay. Have a good one.
[00:38:53] John: Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside.
[00:38:56] John: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and [00:39:00] share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on TikTok @ JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.