Spirituality and the Evolution of Internal Family Systems (IFS) with Bob Falconer
Spirituality and the Evolution of Internal Family Systems (IFS) with Bob Falconer
In this episode of Going Inside: Healing Trauma from the Inside Out, I’m joined once again by Bob Falconer to dive into the intersection of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy and spirit-based work. Bob shares his personal journey into embracing spirituality within therapy, despite initial resistance within the IFS community. We dive into profound topics about connection to spirit, healing, and unburdening.
Key Takeaways
1. Spirituality in Therapy
Bob shares how his work increasingly focuses on spirit-based therapy, emphasizing the importance of a spiritual connection that remains present even during intense suffering.
2. Thoughts on Other Therapeutic Models
We reflect on the damage caused by certain therapeutic models, especially those emphasizing therapist authority and disempowering clients. It’s important to question the roots of these models, including IFS, and maintain humility in their application.
3. Humility as Therapists
It’s important to have humility in therapy, recognizing that while we have tools and knowledge as therapists, there is still much we don’t know. We must honor clients’ systems and maintain an open, questioning attitude toward therapeutic models.
Learn more about Bob Falconer at https://robertfalconer.us/ or https://www.instagram.com/bobfalconerifs/
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Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] Bob: A man I knew who was a monk said to me, he said, we all have dozens, at least a dozen and often dozens of mystical experiences every day, but we've been trained to ignore them all.
[00:00:14] John: Yeah.
[00:00:15] Bob: And that was like, he's right.
[00:00:21] John: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self.
[00:00:28] John: Join me, trauma therapist, John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self discovery.
[00:00:46] John: Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy. com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Excited to introduce my guests for today. Welcome back, Bob Falconer. Bob [00:01:00] is the author of The Others Within Us, Internal Family Systems, Porous Mind, and Spirit Possession.
[00:01:05] John: Bob has been working with trauma and healing for over 50 years now. IFS is his major modality, but he has studied and uses Many others Bob, thanks for doing this again. How are you doing this morning?
[00:01:17] Bob: Great to be here. I'm doing well
[00:01:20] John: good If it's okay, I wanted to read a few comments from our last episode just for a little Feedback and listener engagement.
[00:01:31] John: So last time was our first time meeting I had just read your book. And so the big big themes we talked about were of the porous mind, which is a concept that's very central to your book and your work and how you bees get in there in the first place. What is an unattached burden and how to work with them using your protocol?
[00:01:52] John: And lots of other branches off of those, those main topics, some [00:02:00] comments that we have from the last episode, someone said they loved your quote when you said, I may be wrong, but perhaps I can be usefully wrong. Someone said this changed my life. In other words, I think freed them up to say. It's okay to be wrong, but to push forward and to try someone else said Bob's work is extraordinary.
[00:02:22] John: Hearing Bob talk about his own life. It was most appreciated. I know a lot of time you talked a lot about your story last time. And then the last one, which I already shared with you was someone said, I lost faith in IFS last year after my therapist said the model didn't support entities. This is the final missing piece of the jigsaw and has restored my faith in IFS.
[00:02:44] John: So hard to think of a higher compliment for your work perhaps or that last episode, but curious your reactions to any of that stuff.
[00:02:54] Bob: Sounds great. The thing people get most triggered, excited, angry, upset [00:03:00] about is the whole idea that there could be conscious agentic, that is beings with intention, intelligent beings sort of wandering around the new sphere.
[00:03:13] Bob: And that is very, very upsetting to many, many people. And in the their response to their upset is to attack me. I'm getting used to that position.
[00:03:27] John: You've got lots of practice having things thrown at you, and yet you continue to forge ahead, which is wonderful. Without yeah, getting lost in the kind of politics of, of IFS, which is kind of not why we're here.
[00:03:40] John: I really want to talk more about you and your work. I've got some questions, both of my own and from the audience. So, One thing I wanted to say is that even since I last spoke with you, cont and have continued my work with clients, I have encountered these UBS or [00:04:00] entities more and more. I'm curious why you think that is some guesses.
[00:04:07] Bob: Okay. We're bind to them. We have culturally installed binders. Stuff like this does not exist. If you see it, ignore it. If you see it, there's something wrong. Pretend it's not there. And I think. I think we're trained out of this as children. You know, children, many, many, many, perhaps most children have imaginary friends, and they're told, you know, stop that, stop that, or they remember past lives, and then, you know, they're, oh, that's ridiculous, don't talk about that, you know.
[00:04:40] Bob: It's just, shh, shh, shh, that's bad and that's wrong. Actually, there's studies now that show that children with imaginary friends mature more rapidly. And exactly in the area where you'd expect it to mess them up social skills. And so it's trained out of [00:05:00] us quite systematically, our awareness of other worlds.
[00:05:03] Bob: And then there's another thing. A man I knew who was a monk said to me, he said, We all have dozens, at least a dozen and often dozens of mystical experiences every day, but we've been trained to ignore them all.
[00:05:19] John: Yeah.
[00:05:20] Bob: And that was like, you know, he's right, you know, it is, it's sort of, we're not supposed to look there and you, you crack open that door a little bit and all sorts of stuff starts coming through.
[00:05:34] Bob: Yeah. Which is maybe some reason why people don't like me for cracking open the door a little bit.
[00:05:40] John: This is true. This is true. Bob, I recently had an encounter and this was literally the first session I had with a client and some parts showed up and they were kind of sitting around a campfire and one was just darn right tormenting the client and I had [00:06:00] this little inkling in my gut to just ask, just to make sure, can you turn and ask that part, is it native to your system?
[00:06:08] John: Is this actually a part or is it not native to your system? And sure enough, the part at first was a tiny bit dodgy about the question and then said, Okay, yeah, I'm not native here.
[00:06:21] Bob: Mm hmm. Yeah, it happened. I had a case a long time ago, a woman who's a lead trainer in IFS, and her husband, and her husband had tried to tell her about a UB.
[00:06:35] Bob: And she went, oh, that's a part of you, we know about that, let's befriend it. And he just went, you don't understand And quit talking to her about it, even though it was very painful to him and like 15 years lady later the the lead trainer Runs into me and I do a session with her and her husband. There's a huge nasty UB in there.
[00:06:56] Bob: We get out So yeah, a highly skilled [00:07:00] really really high quality IFS trained therapist lived UB in her husband for more than a decade and didn't see it the training. Yeah for us to not see. I like the phrase spiritual presence experiences, and that's from Tanya Luhrmann, the anthropologist. The training in us to ignore these things is incredibly strong and pervasive.
[00:07:31] John: Yeah. Can you say more about why you think that it is? How
[00:07:38] Bob: many hours do you have, John?
[00:07:41] John: At least three. For you, I got
[00:07:44] Bob: three. Okay. I think in the West, we've developed what Tanya Lerman, that same anthropologist calls the Citadel model of mind. That our minds are these private, everything in here is private, it's [00:08:00] our property, and nobody gets in here.
[00:08:03] Bob: It's all nicely contained in this bony structure, and it constitutes our identity. Now, that looks strong from the outside. Or at first glance, but it's not, it's incredibly brittle and therefore fragile. A person with that model of mind, like that's how it's supposed to be, hears one voice or has one vision and they shatter.
[00:08:29] Bob: They go, my brain's broken. And our entire medical system backs them up. Yeah, meds for the rest of your life. You know, it's a biological problem. All these images and visions have no meaning. It's just, you know, sorry about your neurochemistry. You're, you're damaged goods.
[00:08:50] John: Yeah.
[00:08:50] Bob: And
[00:08:51] Bob: this model of mind, developed. It started maybe with the ancient Greeks. That's what Owen Barfield, the great British philosopher, [00:09:00] said. But I think it really got going in the Reformation, counter Reformation phase, 1500 or something like that. And I think our epidemic of mental illness, the seeds were planted back then.
[00:09:14] Bob: I think the epidemic of mental illness that we're now experiencing is a result of this. Citadel model of mind.
[00:09:22] John: Yeah.
[00:09:23] Bob: And there are quite a few other people who think this. I'm not the lone unitic. If I'm completely crazy, at least there are others in the boat with me. There's a woman in England Isabel Clarke who, who works inpatient with psychotics.
[00:09:38] Bob: And she talked about the billiard ball theory of mind. She doesn't know Tanya Lerman's work. They don't reference each other at all. It's the same idea, that we have this theory that our mind is this self contained, isolated little thing. And Dr. Clarke says, this is why the psychosis is so hard to treat in the [00:10:00] West.
[00:10:00] Bob: So they both see it as a, as a deficit, a severe problem. And if, if you think of it, You know, in, in the 20th century, we all talked about alienation, you know, that was this core problem and meaninglessness. Those are both inescapable results of the citadel theory of mind. If you think you're this totally isolated, independent thing, you're going to feel alienated.
[00:10:28] John: Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:30] Bob: And so I think the reason these things are so intensely resisted. Is because they go right against that Citadel theory of mind. If this stuff is true, that theory is wrong. And our culture is built on it. And I'll just go, why? Because I told you I could go for hours on this question. I'm here for it.
[00:10:53] Bob: Okay. Daniel Siegel, the guy with who developed interpersonal neurobiology. [00:11:00] He says this theory, he calls it the myth of the solo self. And he doesn't reference Luhrmann or Clarke, so these are, this is consilience. All these people from different databases coming to the same conclusion. He says this myth of the solo mind is so deeply into the structure of our culture and our way of being, that it's in the language.
[00:11:28] Bob: That we can't use English to discuss it, because English has this built into it, and he says it's in the pronouns, it's in the grammar, you know, it's, it's inescapably in there, and he's trying to invent new language to be able to talk about this, and it's very clunky and awkward, but thank, thank God he's at least trying.
[00:11:51] Bob: So there's, there's a brief nutshell.
[00:11:55] John: Yeah, that's great. And I know we touched on this a little bit. [00:12:00] but you're already getting to one of my questions, which is kind of how we became so disconnected from our spirituality, how IFS at large can help us. And I'm seeing many of my clients and therapists that I work with IFS, helping them connect or reconnect to their spirituality.
[00:12:16] John: Now, when I look at your book your book focuses a lot on kind of the more sinister ways that This, the more sinister pieces of our spirit world and how to, how to help. On the other hand, I find that a lot, a nice, natural, easy entry for a lot of people is this idea of self energy and what is self energy and connecting that to their spirituality, whether it's self energy is, kind of like chi, or it is the God image in me, or it's that feeling I get when I pray in church, or whatever it is.
[00:12:49] John: So can you just riff on that for a second as to like, how do you see self energy at this point in your career and having done this for so long? And how important is [00:13:00] self energy in this work?
[00:13:02] Bob: I think self energy is a Trojan horse. It sneaks something in in a way that looks sort of pseudo scientific and respectable.
[00:13:12] Bob: Yeah. And it's actually opening the door to God. Which is a no no in our culture, especially the academic culture. And you know, Dick has this idea that we have a self energy that's like a particle. It's in us. And then there's this larger self energy that's a field. of self energy. And I think it's very much like the Hindu idea of Atman and Brahman.
[00:13:37] Bob: Thou art that. The core of who you are, the spark of your being, is the great mind of the universe or whatever. You know, I don't, I don't think we even have words for what that is. And so if you're open to this spark in yourself, you will open to that great [00:14:00] field of the one self.
[00:14:02] John: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Bob: Yeah, that's beautiful.
[00:14:07] Bob: So I'm moving more and, you know, I came into this, you're right, from, I don't like the name unattached burdens, but I think entities is more honest and direct. Dick hates the word entities, because he's afraid it will be used to discredit IFS. You know, and entities was invented as a word so we didn't have to talk about spirit possession.
[00:14:30] Bob: So there's all this, there's this effort over and over again to sort of dumb this down, make it neutral, you know. Anyway.
[00:14:40] John: Yeah.
[00:14:41] Bob: There's I think in the West we have a native shamanic tradition which has been ignored. And because it's been ignored, we go all over the planet looking, you know, in jungle somewhere or anywhere for a tradition like this, we can attach to.
[00:14:58] Bob: And I think the native [00:15:00] shamanic tradition is most clearly represented in the Neoplatonic philosophers like Amblicus, Porphyry, Plotinus, and they had this worldview. That there's us, humans, down here. And then above us there's this realm they call the daemonic. The daemons. And these are semi divine beings who we can relate to.
[00:15:25] Bob: And we can have relational, interactive ways of being with them. Above that is the noose, the realm of platonic ideas. And above that is the one. Which is so far gone from our reality. We can't really, you know, great it's there, but So they their spirituality was all about relating to these daimons Which were not bad.
[00:15:49] Bob: Many times they were good. And they would do all this stuff to develop relationships with the daimons. They would bring the daimons down into their bodies. They would go and their spirit would [00:16:00] fly with the daimons. Does this sound like classical shamanism? It should! You know, and they had a ritual practice.
[00:16:08] Bob: They may well have used psychedelics. I, you know, it's, that's really, I don't know about that, but there's a lot of evidence. I think this, I think this tradition continued in Europe until the witch hunt trials. You know, the 15th hundreds, they started burning a lot of people for being witches. And I think that was a fairly organized attempt to eradicate the last shamans from Europe.
[00:16:35] Bob: And it worked pretty well in Central Europe, not in Eastern Europe, and not, not in Ireland and Scotland, the fringes, something, something of that spirituality survived. I think that spirituality is all about relating to what IFS calls UBs and guides.
[00:16:55] John: Yeah.
[00:16:56] Bob: It's interactive and relational spirituality, love [00:17:00] based, bhakti as they call it in India.
[00:17:03] Bob: And I think we're starving for that in our culture.
[00:17:08] John: I think you're right. The first time I used the unburdening sequence with a client, my first thought was, Oh, this is modern day shamanism packaged into something that the APA would say, Oh, you're doing parts work, like inner child work. Great. So I get it.
[00:17:28] John: And I get why it is packaged that way. And again, I also see the more I do this work, all these circles that surround IFS that get into this. spirit world kind of work, whether it's spirit guides on attached burdens ancestor work ancestor medicine, there's all these circles around it that people can either explore or not explore.
[00:17:47] John: So I think people can take as much or as little as they want from the model. I also wanted to say something I experienced since I saw you was working with An energy worker who [00:18:00] does energy work, Reiki, quantum healing, all these things. And she walked me through as her client on in table work essentially an extraction process which both had parallels to your protocol and also was was different from your protocol.
[00:18:17] John: It was more of a pulling out versus helping a part let go of the entity or the burden and encouraging it. But there was some real parallels there. So how is your protocol for working with UBs different from an extraction?
[00:18:31] Bob: Well, I want to hold quote my protocol really loosely. These are notes towards a method at best.
[00:18:42] Bob: You know and I know it's wrong. I, you know, that quote you read at the beginning, I think the big difference from classical exorcism work is it's all compassion based.
[00:18:56] John: Yeah. I
[00:18:56] Bob: think the vast majority of these. [00:19:00] Spirit possession entities, whatever you want to call them, they're lost and they're clinging to the client out of desperation and starvation.
[00:19:09] John: Yeah. And
[00:19:10] Bob: when you can, and they're paranoid as hell, they're not, they're not exactly going to come, Oh, help me. But they present, they present as mean, nasty, hostile, you know, all this stuff.
[00:19:24] John: Yeah.
[00:19:24] Bob: When. When greeted and worked with, with sincere compassion, they are very often, they want to go, they know they're in the wrong place and they apologize for causing pain when they leave.
[00:19:37] Bob: So it's very much compassion based and no force.
[00:19:42] John: Yeah.
[00:19:43] Bob: Yeah. Occasionally there's times when I've had to resort to force, but even then it's, you know, like tough love kind of force. It's not, It's not this, you know, the exorcism and screaming and whacking people over the head with the Bible or [00:20:00] anything like that.
[00:20:01] John: Yeah, yeah. That's, that's really helpful. In your experience, Bob, do, do you bees, are they, do they always attach to a part or when we look at it through a parts model, are they always attached to a part or can they also just be kind of in there? and having some sense of agency or bopping around. Okay.
[00:20:26] Bob: Tentatively, I would say they're probably always attached to a part, except when they're, when they're a Yubi that's been passed down through the family. When they're a legacy burden and very, this is not uncommon, a family will harbor some kind of hostile energy and it gets passed down through the lineage.
[00:20:49] Bob: Now those sometimes seem to just be in the person's entire system as opposed to attached to a specific part. But overwhelmingly I would look [00:21:00] for any parts who are attached to that external energy and think they need it.
[00:21:07] John: My other question is, can they in fact be neutral? Because on one hand, I have seen and kind of met some of these entities or UBs that are quite malicious, quite sinister.
[00:21:19] John: My Reiki master called them little rascals. One of them had a direct, the one we met at the campfire that I was mentioning had a direct implication for the client's pathology. So it made sense right away what that one is up to. I've also encountered one or two that seem quite neutral. They're just kind of there like in the corner, not doing much.
[00:21:41] John: And then on the other hand, when we think about connecting with spirit guides or intentionally connecting with spirit guides that are benevolent and full of powerful self healing, self, self energy, healing energy, what have you. Yeah. Can you just riff on that a little bit? Like, can they in fact be neutral?
[00:21:58] Bob: First thing I want to say, the [00:22:00] reason I don't like IFS is calling them unattached burdens or guides, right off. And originally the name was Critters, but they changed that to unattached burdens. You have to judge them. First thing you meet them and you're judging, is this thing good or bad?
[00:22:17] John: Yeah.
[00:22:17] Bob: That's, that's not helpful.
[00:22:20] Bob: So that's how, you know, Tanya Lerman's phrase spiritual presence experiences. You know, it's neutral. Or the others within us, it's neutral. You know, we give them a little more room. Now, my experience has been they're overwhelmingly either good or bad. And there are two thinkers who I immensely admire, Patrick Harper, H A R P U R, who's a novelist and author in the UK somewhere, and Bernardo Kastrup, the great Dutch idealist philosopher.
[00:22:57] Bob: They both say that these daimons, [00:23:00] as they call them, you know, using the, the Greek term, Are almost always neutral and they're trickster ish and ambivalent. Now, I think they're wrong, but these are two incredibly brilliant, learned men. So I'm going, Oh, you know, I should, I should be very careful here. These are not people I want to disagree with because I respect them so profoundly.
[00:23:27] Bob: So my real answer is, I don't know.
[00:23:31] John: Okay. Yeah. And I think I read this in your book and it's a, it's a general IFS rule of thumb, which is just ask. And that's a rule of thumb I have used a lot with this work, whether it's just working with the inner critic part of who are you and what's your job and how'd you get that job?
[00:23:48] John: And right. The six Fs. And same thing for parts that might feel a little more sinister. Who are you? How'd you get here? What's your job or what's your intent? Right. And To your point, as you said last [00:24:00] time entities or UBs generally don't lie. They might be a little dodgy. Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute.
[00:24:05] Bob: There's only one question they don't lie about. That's, are you a part of the system? Everything else they lie about. I mean, you know, Satan traditionally was called the father of lies. I mean, these things would make great lawyers. They probably are great lawyers and politicians. They've got that, you know, that twisting words skill, really, really, they know how to do that.
[00:24:32] John: Using double negatives, circulars, all sorts of fancy
[00:24:36] Bob: stuff and distraction and, you know, they're really good at that. Really good, highly skilled. So I say don't ever debate with them. Don't ever argue with them. And Dick insists. These things cannot lie about the question. Are you a part of me? However, once I was saying this, you know, quite strongly to an audience and this [00:25:00] very large, powerful black woman.
[00:25:02] Bob: I don't think she stood up, but she yelled out, They lie! They lie! And it turned out she was from Nigeria. And in their tradition, yeah, these things lie about whether or not they're part of a person. And when we talked some more, she said, You know, some of them have been in you and been doing this for so long, they don't even remember who they really are.
[00:25:30] Bob: They don't know who they really are. And yeah, I, I was delighted to hear about her and the Nigerian traditions around this. So, In my experience, they almost never lie about that one question. Everything else they lie about. And there's, there's a little detail that's important for IFS practitioners about this.
[00:25:54] Bob: There are actually three answers. Are you a part of me? Yes, [00:26:00] no, and yes and no. And that's really significant because very often there's some part of a person who took in an external energy to help it feel stronger. So that, and then that's a yes and no, it's a part who took in energy and then you have to work with that part to help that part, let go of the energy.
[00:26:25] Bob: And if you try and throw that whole thing out, you're just going to cause a huge mess.
[00:26:31] John: Yeah. Two other pieces of information that I've been using in my own clinical work with this stuff is, like I mentioned before, my intuition, my gut even if my gut is just, this part seems a little sketchy, let's just ask, or have the client just ask, are you a parch, and also relying on the client's intuition and their own reaction.
[00:26:53] John: In this case, the client was quite spooked by this. Part or this entity more so than let's say [00:27:00] meeting a harsh inner critic who's always on my back and always telling me I suck and all that. It's like, yeah, I kind of get that. Or parts that kind of sound like critical mom or critical dad or whatever.
[00:27:10] John: It's just they have these things seem to have a slightly different texture to them.
[00:27:16] Bob: Yeah. I am very, very leery about trusting the client's intuition because very often our client's system Will be organized around hating one part of themselves. And so every other part in the system can be pointing their bony fingers and going, that's not a part.
[00:27:35] Bob: Get that out of us. Get that out. Get that out. So that's dangerous You know, we have to really check with the thing itself by asking it. Are you a part of the system? There's another word i'm using a lot when we try and find out what these things are You The basic question is what's your intention here?
[00:27:58] Bob: You know, what are you doing? [00:28:00] But I'm also asking more and more, what do you need? Because that's a more sort of compassionate question. So it opens up that doorway to a compassionate and helping relationship with these things. But also I recently did a class on NVC and IFS, you know, Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication and his whole system.
[00:28:25] Bob: Is based on an awareness of needs and that human needs in his view are actually great blessings. They're the doorway to our aliveness and our life force. And I don't think. IFS has enough room in it for what Rosenberg calls needs, and needs consciousness, and, and how to function with this. So I'm playing more and more to how to, how to get this, how to bring these two together.
[00:28:54] Bob: There's one guy I know who is talking, he talks about [00:29:00] exiles. He says their burdens are actually need deficits. Needs, they never got met. So they're going around the world looking to try and get these needs met. So he's turned the IFS idea of a, an exile into something that NBC. So I think there's some, some marriage can happen there that will produce really, really wonderful offspring.
[00:29:26] John: I think you're onto something. There's no doubt that a lot of. IFS is mediating between two parties, right? Between two parts, between self and a part self and an entity or UB, whatever it is, especially. And then we get into this kind of negotiation with an entity or UB and trying to help it get where it's going, you know, or be somewhere else, except, except here or not wreaking havoc on the client's life.
[00:29:53] John: So a lot of it feels like, Like mediation, hearing from both sides, hearing what your intent is. Oh, [00:30:00] sometimes you have the same intent, right? Two parts that want the same thing for the system. They write no bad parts. They generally want the same thing for the system. So yeah, a lot of it does feel like mediation and kind of coming to the table with whoever's here.
[00:30:15] John: in a given session. So I think the NVC stuff is great, you know, whether it's taking that and applying it to couples work and helping, you know, two partners get along or helping self in part or two parts or whatever it might be. So it makes a lot of sense to me.
[00:30:32] John: Yeah. I can reference my list of questions unless you had something on the tip of your tongue.
[00:30:36] Bob: Oh, I had something, but it went out the back of my head.
[00:30:40] John: Okay. Sorry about that. It'll come back since it'll come back. Yeah. So a question from Instagram was, can you release a UB on your own?
[00:30:53] Bob: Yes. Very often.
[00:30:55] Bob: Okay. Some people do it totally physically.[00:31:00]
[00:31:03] Bob: Dance is a traditional way. of releasing you bees and very, very, very powerful, especially sort of the free form, you know, conscious dance, ecstatic dance, very, very powerful way of getting alien energies out of your body.
[00:31:21] John: Right.
[00:31:21] Bob: And I dance pretty much every day.
[00:31:26] John: And do you have to bring intention to that?
[00:31:28] John: Or could you just dance and they happen to kind of fall off of you?
[00:31:31] Bob: I think, I think both ways could happen. I know a guy who I have immense respect for Peter Nielsen in Denmark, who's fairly prominent in the IFS world in Europe and the Nordic countries. He's also a rolfer and sometimes he can get them out with his hands.
[00:31:49] John: Yeah.
[00:31:51] Bob: And I think there are energy workers who can do that too.
[00:31:55] John: There's no doubt about that. Yep. Yep. [00:32:00] Okay. Another question from the audience, which we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but this therapist is saying how to proceed when you encounter a UB for the first time. And I know we, we talked about this last time, but maybe just, you know, a few seconds on that.
[00:32:16] Bob: Okay. The most important thing is to make sure it's not a part. and to make sure it doesn't have a part with it. You know, like it's not riding on a part who still wants to connect to it. Then the second thing is when the client is no longer afraid of it and no longer has any parts who are afraid of it, it loses all power.
[00:32:42] Bob: So you just with love and kindness and patience, you look for all the parts of the client who are afraid of it.
[00:32:49] John: Yeah.
[00:32:50] Bob: And, you know, bring them in patiently and lovingly. Finding these parts who are isolated by the entity [00:33:00] within is really the gold of this work. I know a lot of people who I've been training, they want to get all those parts out of the way so they can get to the UB and get it out.
[00:33:09] Bob: No! Please! You know, often, Often when we do have these energies in us, they allow us to reconnect with the deep, deep exiles that would take us many years of psychotherapy to reach. But these things, you know, show us the way. So, so there's, there's, there's, They present an incredible opportunity for deep healing, and we should take that opportunity.
[00:33:39] Bob: You pay the tuition, take the course, you know.
[00:33:45] John: The other piece, right, is check therapists, again, just like typical IFS work, is checking with their own parts and their own self energy. Yeah,
[00:33:53] Bob: they have to, they have to deal with their frightened parts before they do this work. Because if [00:34:00] they get frightened and start trying to do this work from a self like energy, it's not good.
[00:34:07] John: The, the sea of courage of the eight seas. Seems to be one of the most important ones, especially for this work. And when I have encountered these entities, UBS I also get a sense that they are kind of checking me out, just like parts can check me out and go, can this dude handle it or not? Can I come out and I scare him?
[00:34:26] John: Can I scare him? Yeah. So that my original question of like, this seems to be happening more and I've kind of cracked that door open a bit of my own work and coming into someone's system with a healthy degree of courage, not being egotistical about it. But a degree of courage of that tends to open the system in a way that.
[00:34:46] John: I hadn't seen before.
[00:34:48] Bob: Yeah. Yeah. When you're calm and comfortable and unruffled by this.
[00:34:53] John: Yeah.
[00:34:54] Bob: The UB sense it, you know, something Dick says to him a lot when he works with [00:35:00] them. And I've, I say to them, you can't scare me.
[00:35:03] John: You
[00:35:03] Bob: can't hurt me, you know, and I know you don't believe me, but I'm here to help you.
[00:35:10] John: Yeah,
[00:35:12] Bob: I want to say I know what it was that flew out the back of my head before this, this thing. One of the reasons I don't like calling them newbies or guides right away, actually telling those two apart is very, very difficult, very subtle and to, to, to be labeling them right up front. I think it's a huge mistake.
[00:35:33] John: Yeah.
[00:35:34] Bob: If you think about it in the past couple hundred years. All the great crimes done on this planet were done by people who were convinced they were doing something virtuous and right. Yeah. Even saving the planet. Mao Tse Tung thought he was saving the planet and creating a new civilization and he's probably responsible for the murder of about a hundred million people.
[00:35:58] Bob: Pol Pot [00:36:00] took the great, you know, the leftist European ideas and all idealistic and proud, went back to Cambodia and murdered over a third of the population.
[00:36:10] John: Yeah.
[00:36:11] Bob: And on and on and on. And these people weren't idiots. I don't think I'm morally superior to them somehow, you know, I just go, Oh, I could be that deluded.
[00:36:24] Bob: I better pay real attention here and not make assumptions. So this thing of making an assumption right at the get go, Oh, this is a UB. This is a guide. I think it's very dangerous. And we have to learn tools of discernment and spend some time and care here.
[00:36:45] John: The same thing happens for practitioners who are new to IFS in general wanting to name it or label it a firefighter and calling it that in part for their own comfort of I need to know what that is.
[00:36:57] John: So if I label it, I know what it is. And the parallel would [00:37:00] be. Imagine meeting someone in real life that you've never met before and then labeling them right away. How might that go? Right. Going back to that nonviolent communication thing. It's like, I wonder how that would be if you did that with somebody you met on the street, probably not great.
[00:37:14] John: Right. And then you have someone or like, let's say a part who's already very polarized, pissed off. It has malintent or whatever, and you've pissed it off a bit further. So there's really no need to label it. Again, default to the part or to the entity. Maybe ask what it wants to be called. Ask, does it have a name?
[00:37:32] John: You know, let, let it tell you as a way of entering the system with respect or entering the relationship with respect, even if you don't agree with it being here or it's what it's actually doing here. Starting from a place of tell me about who you are and how you got here.
[00:37:46] Bob: Yeah, I think that word you just mentioned twice is the missing word in IFS land, respect.
[00:37:55] Bob: I think IFS is the most potent form of therapy [00:38:00] currently available, and it's also the most respectful of all the parts. And I don't, that's not an accident. And I didn't use to think of respect as something powerful, but now I do. I think it, IFS is potent because it's so respectful of all the parts and their autonomy and identity and all of that.
[00:38:22] Bob: And I don't, you know, I guess respect doesn't start with a C, so we couldn't, couldn't start a new
[00:38:29] John: list of our words.
[00:38:31] Bob: Yeah. You know, Pia Melody had a great phrase. She said, respect is the minimum of love.
[00:38:42] John: Yeah. Beautiful.
[00:38:45] John: I can keep throwing questions at you, Bob. I have. This is again coming from my clinical work. I've actually been doing IFS demos here on this podcast, both audio and also they're on YouTube. And in a recent demo, we [00:39:00] encountered what was a UB or an entity. And we walked it through probably about 80 percent of, I'll put your protocol in quotations by your request.
[00:39:11] John: And as we were getting toward the end and the part or the entity was at first hesitantly, but then eventually willingly going and leaving and actually on its own was going up. Towards the light, the sky, wherever it was going, client was helping it do that. Things were actually going fairly smoothly.
[00:39:29] John: And then at the last second, this entity kind of got hesitant and came back. And got scared and latched on to mom, and I'm not totally sure whether this was a part that just happens to look like mom. Mom was very critical and narcissistic, by the way or actually kind of mom's energy, or was this UB just kind of making an excuse to come back?
[00:39:53] John: But it came back, latched on to mom, and said it didn't want to leave because it was worried about [00:40:00] mom.
[00:40:03] Bob: Ah, was mom still alive? Okay.
[00:40:08] John: Yeah,
[00:40:08] Bob: this could be a UB that was passed down as a legacy burden and you might need to help clear it, you know, have the client help clear it from the whole legacy as you would do with a traditional legacy burden. There are other reasons why UB's bulk at the last minute.
[00:40:29] Bob: Another classic one is that the UB actually has a boss of some kind. It was sent here by a bigger, more powerful unattached person. Well, that's not scary at all. They're going to be, they're going to be really frightened and they're going to balk and hesitate and do all this stuff. So I just, I often just ask, did somebody send you here?
[00:40:50] Bob: Do you have a boss? And they usually, Oh, I don't want to talk about it. We can't talk about it. You know, it's all weird. And you know, the therapist has to be okay, [00:41:00] if you're struggling with the UB, are you really okay meeting its boss?
[00:41:04] John: Yeah.
[00:41:04] Bob: You know, and the answer, if the answer is not 100%, yes, you don't want to be asking that question.
[00:41:11] Bob: But very often that that's the issue. Another issue is very often these UBS gets stuck in people because they've done something so horrible that they think they'll never be forgiven and they have to hide out and, you know, sneak around and attach to people and have this miserable little, you know, junkyard dog existence.
[00:41:40] Bob: So that's another question. Did you do something so horrible you, you don't think you'll ever be forgiven?
[00:41:47] John: Yeah.
[00:41:48] Bob: A third reason why they go all the way up to the, you know, they're almost gone. You know, they want to go, but they don't. Very, and this is from Korean [00:42:00] shamanism. Very often they need to have their suffering witnessed before they can go.
[00:42:05] Bob: And that's why they're hanging around. Nobody saw the injustice. Nobody saw, you know, I was raped and murdered. Nobody saw. So a really good question to ask if your client's up for it is, do you need your suffering witnessed before you can go?
[00:42:25] John: Wow.
[00:42:26] Bob: And even if the Yubi goes, no, no, I don't, it, the Yubi starts believing, Oh, you actually are trying to help me.
[00:42:37] Bob: You're, you're, you're real here about doing that in the Korean shaman, shamanic tradition, they're called mudong. Among other names, Manchian, there are a bunch of names. They're almost all women, but they believe these spirits stick around because they're Han. which is an emotion somewhere between anguish and injustice, [00:43:00] has not been witnessed.
[00:43:01] Bob: And that's how the, the mudang get spirits out of people. They witness, they embody the spirit, they invite the spirit into them. And they express its needs, and the suffering is witnessed, and then the spirit can go on, it's freed. So I found that's a very interesting parallel to IFS's witnessing in regular unburdening.
[00:43:23] Bob: That's right. Yeah, and this shamanic tradition is four or five thousand years old, so. So much for IFS being the first kid. Yeah.
[00:43:34] John: Yeah,
[00:43:34] Bob: but I found that very, very helpful. This idea of witnessing the suffering of the
[00:43:39] John: that's great. Yeah. The other sticking point that happened in this demo, and I even thought about sending it to you to for your feedback or to help break it down, even for the sake of this interview is just like this.
[00:43:54] John: The entity kind of latched back on a mom and said, mom's not going to be okay if I leave. Client [00:44:00] had similar concerns. And I've had this happen a number of times where there's a part that either like, is it mom's energy or does it just look like mom, right? Is it an internalized version of mom, especially when mom was harsh, critical, abusive, hot and cold, whatever it was.
[00:44:19] John: So I guess the question is there on like parental energies. in us, how to suss that out. And in this case, when the client kind of agreed with the entity in a way of like, yeah, I'm afraid that mom won't be okay either. Right. So, and then I also tried the thing of like, can we off, can someone else come in and help mom and be with her?
[00:44:40] John: And that kind of worked, but, but we were at a sticking point and we were running out of time. So.
[00:44:45] Bob: Yeah. Yeah. These things are never helpful at the end of the day, Never. That's because they're parasites. They're feeding on the person they're attached to, or the family lineage they're attached to. [00:45:00] So, always at the end of the day, they leave the person feeling diminished.
[00:45:05] Bob: Just like any parasite, at the end of the day, leaves the being it's attached to feeling diminished. So, and this I think is a great source of confidence for somebody working with this when parts attached to self, they feel nourished and stronger at the end of the day, both the part and the self feel there's a, I don't know what the right name is, but they both feel stronger.
[00:45:31] Bob: And with the UB, it's the opposite. So I tell people this quite clearly. Ask the part to test this out. This energy has promised to save you, but actually it's kept you weak so that you would be dependent on it. That's a lie. It's a parasite. It's feeding off of you. Just check it out in your own reality.
[00:45:54] Bob: The closer you get to that entity, The closer you get [00:46:00] to self, the stronger you'll feel, and you start to get strength that you haven't felt in a long, long time.
[00:46:06] John: Great.
[00:46:09] Bob: I do believe that parts of another living person can get into somebody's system and act like a UB would.
[00:46:19] John: Yeah.
[00:46:20] Bob: So, is that a UB? Is that an introduct?
[00:46:24] Bob: Great. Whatever the client says, it doesn't matter. It needs to go. It has to
[00:46:30] John: happen.
[00:46:31] Bob: Mm hmm. Yeah.
[00:46:32] John: Yeah. Yeah. For folks wondering what I'm referencing is you've done either three or four sessions with this. demo participant who we nicknamed Sophia. So if people are interested in looking at the moment that I'm talking about, it's at the end of the most recent demo with Sophia.
[00:46:49] John: It's the very last one we've, we've done. And this kind of all went down during the last 20 minutes or so, if folks want to check that out.
[00:46:59] Bob: And very [00:47:00] often if you know, if you're at the end of a session and can't get a UB out, that freaks out a lot of clients. And a lot of therapists, is what I meant to say.
[00:47:09] Bob: Because the UB will, you know, it'll get frightening, it'll come back and it'll try and dig in really strong. And so, I think the thing to do is go back to that just notice when the UB's there, you feel weaker. It makes you dependent. It's a parasite. When you connect to self, you'll feel stronger. Because then, you as the therapist can be confident and confident.
[00:47:34] Bob: That just if you stay steady and doing what you're doing, time's on your side, and the UB wants to convince you time is on its side, and you need to rush and hurry. Because once you start rushing and hurrying, you're fear based, and that's, then you're in the UB's world, and it's, the whole thing isn't good.
[00:47:55] Bob: So I think we really can be confident and calm. Time is on our [00:48:00] side. Yeah. Once the parts get a taste of self.
[00:48:05] John: Great. Another question kind of building on that, Bob, is Again, this, this idea of when a part either kind of has a parent's energy, like mom's energy or dad's energy, especially when there's a trauma history there from that parent.
[00:48:23] John: Obviously I know we can always just ask or ask, like, are you mom or are you dad? Are you a part that kind of has mom's energy? But how do you help suss that out? Because I'm just seeing that happen more and more. I wouldn't,
[00:48:34] Bob: I wouldn't, I wouldn't be concerned. I'm not really concerned if something's a UB or a legacy burden.
[00:48:41] Bob: Very often there's something I'm pretty sure is a UB, but a lot of people just can't accept the idea of UBs. But legacy burdens, there's very, very hard science for. I think that Dias Ressler experiment, nobody can argue with that. The science of epigenetics, [00:49:00] there's all of this. So for the, you know, rigidly rationalist, I'd, oh, let them think of it as a legacy burden, that's fine.
[00:49:08] Bob: The key question is, does it belong in this system or not? So the key question is, are you a part of me? Not, are you mom, are you a UB, are you, you know, Anything like that. It's just are you a part of me? Are you a part of my system? That's the question we need an answer to
[00:49:30] John: I have found at times, especially when the abuse came from, let's say, mom and mom is kind of in the person system mom is both the perpetrator and also sometimes client or parts of the client feel like we also need to take care of mom.
[00:49:44] Bob: Yeah. Oh yeah. She's the perpetrator. Double bind. Classic, classic poison thing to do. Yep. I want to mention something else because it's really, really important. I think the classical phrase for it is perpetrator interjects,
[00:49:59] John: [00:50:00] but
[00:50:00] Bob: it isn't, if a child is being raped and beaten, who has all the power in the room with the child and the perpetrator?
[00:50:11] Bob: The perpetrator, right? So some very courageous part of the child often goes out, takes in some of the perpetrator's energy to try and get strong enough to protect the child. As a result of doing this heroic thing, the entire rest of the child's system hates it. So it's made this heroic sacrifice and it gets hated by everybody else in the system.
[00:50:40] Bob: And most survivors of severe abuse have these kinds of parts. So it is a terrible mistake. To think of one of these as a UB and it, and there, it's quite subtle to make sure, you know, cause they've, [00:51:00] they, they have intentionally taken in some of that energy. So this is a sort of a special case that requires extra.
[00:51:07] Bob: extra care and caution. And these perpetrator interjects deserve a victory parade.
[00:51:15] John: Yeah.
[00:51:17] Bob: Yeah. Yeah. You, you went and took on the worst possible thing in your universe to help us survive.
[00:51:25] John: Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:27] Bob: And, and, you know, and a more, usually it's a more classical kind of unburdening they need, not, not a, not a UB.
[00:51:33] Bob: They might have a UB on them, but that's something to really be careful about when there's abusive parental energy in a person's system.
[00:51:44] John: And of course, the real life implication for this often is the person acts out that perpetrator energy. And so you get these headlines. And in fact, I watch a lot of these crime shows more and more people that are [00:52:00] sexual perpetrators or sexually assaulting children, teenagers or whatever, of course, have that.
[00:52:06] John: There's even a rise right now for whatever reason of women and especially female teachers who are sexually assaulting their students, children.
[00:52:16] Bob: I'm not so sure about that. It just could be we're reporting it more.
[00:52:20] John: That, of course, yeah.
[00:52:22] Bob: We used to pretend women don't abuse children.
[00:52:24] John: Yeah, yeah.
[00:52:26] Bob: You know, when I was being trained, oh, that doesn't happen.
[00:52:29] John: Yeah, yeah,
[00:52:31] Bob: yeah. Well,
[00:52:32] John: there's a paper trail for all of it, to your point. It could very well be that it's being reported more and when it happens on Snapchat and then the kid shows their parent a screenshot or whatever, it's like, okay, now this whole thing is exploding. And a lot of times these. People or lately women who are kind of getting caught have the appearance of a perfectly competent, well put together, you know, teacher in person and loving mother.
[00:52:57] John: Yeah. Or even a mother of [00:53:00] children. Yeah. Of their own children. So, yeah.
[00:53:04] Bob: I think you DeMouse?
[00:53:08] John: Nope.
[00:53:08] Bob: P E M A U S E, I think. He wrote, he, He wrote a book called the history of childhood or he edited that and he wrote quite a few other books Psychohistory and a bunch of others. He studied childhood worldwide Childhood sexual abuse happened everywhere Tribes traditional cultures all over the place the classical world.
[00:53:33] Bob: We we just ignored the hell out of it He even thinks His big theory is that he, he says he could predict the political structure of a country by examining the child rearing practices a generation earlier.
[00:53:50] John: Hmm.
[00:53:51] Bob: And he, he did a lot of work on the child rearing practices in Germany around the turn of the 1900.
[00:53:59] Bob: And he [00:54:00] says this predicts the rise of the Nazis very clearly. And I think his work and the people who followed him show clearly that this is a worldwide problem and that it's been around and it's, it's more a matter of what gets reported.
[00:54:16] John: Yeah, no doubt. Of
[00:54:20] Bob: course, his work is largely ignored because it's so, you know, if you don't like somebody's ideas, you just pretend they're not there.
[00:54:28] John: Yeah, they're very inconvenient. That's for sure. Yeah. And yet, very important to bring this stuff into the light. And also important to, as a mental, mental health professionals, quote unquote, to talk about how to, how we might treat some of these folks. Thanks. That one help, right? Or these teachers. So I've been thinking about that, that lately, if this woman was my client, what would I, how, how might I help her?
[00:54:57] John: So maybe just a few more minutes [00:55:00] of our time left, Bob, I guess, anything that feels left unsaid, anything that you're, you're kind of super jazzed about right now in your work or anything that's up ahead for you, anything that you really want community to hear right now.
[00:55:14] Bob: I'm moving more and more into explicitly spirit based work.
[00:55:21] Bob: And, you know, I sort of came at this whole subject from the underbelly, not, not by choice. It was what was put in front of my face, you know, and there came a point where I just can't ignore this and I really need to investigate it. And even though it was very unpopular in the IFS world, I went ahead, you know, did the book and still there are a lot of people who sort of pretend I don't exist.
[00:55:47] Bob: That's okay. But more and more I'm moving to the sunny side of the street and welcoming in spirit. And how do we connect with spirit? What are our blocks to spirit? And a question I'm [00:56:00] asking myself and I'm talking about more and more is I don't think a connection to spirit is of any value unless it can go with you into the deepest realm of hell you have ever experienced.
[00:56:15] Bob: The worst of your suffering, and will it be for you there? There was a rabbi who said after the Holocaust, We should never pray unless it's a prayer we could say in the presence of burning children. And that man found a way to pray. To say something from his heart, to connect to spirit in the presence of burning children, in the recent torture death of millions of his people.
[00:56:46] Bob: How do you pray then and there? How do you connect to spirit there? And if you can't do it there, it's worthless. It's not worthless, but, I mean, that's where it counts. [00:57:00] So, how do we make those kind of connections? How do we find those kind of connections? And our clients who've Been deep in psychosis, despair, multiple suicide attempts.
[00:57:12] Bob: Spirits have no help to them unless it's goes right down into the deepest hell realms with them. I think they have every right to ask that and to be given help and finding a way to make a connection with spirit, which will go there with them. So that's more and more of the direction I'm moving in what I'm focusing on.
[00:57:38] John: I can't wait to see where you go next. Bob and just following your work thus far or has been a real privilege for me and getting to know you a little bit has been a real privilege and your work has helped my clients through, through my work. So thank you for that. And I also appreciate the freedom to adapt it and to do it my [00:58:00] way and to improvise and bring that sea of creativity into the framework that you've offered to help get us started.
[00:58:07] John: So I really appreciate the humility that you continue to bring into this.
[00:58:13] Bob: Yeah, I'm a beginner. I'm a, you know, the message I get when I talk to Spirit on the, on your planet, you're all in kindergarten. Most of you are still in diapers. When you get out of kindergarten into first grade, birds will come and land on your shoulder.
[00:58:29] Bob: The deer will come up and let you pet them. Stuff like that. You're, you're still in kindergarten. Get over yourself. Yeah,
[00:58:36] John: yeah, yeah. Yeah, which is also in a way antithetical to where a lot of our field of psychology and psychotherapy started out of the, the the blank slate sitting on the opposite side of the couch, the client staring at the ceiling and the therapist or the analyst eventually offering some epic interpretation of, Why you're so screwed up.
[00:58:59] John: [00:59:00] And not to mention the ivory tower and all these pieces that where therapists still hold and often abuse that that power. So it's never lost on me that like, that's, those are still our roots of psychology. And it wasn't that long ago that that was the model and a lot of people that's still the model.
[00:59:21] John: Yeah,
[00:59:21] Bob: it's terrible. It causes more damage than good. The history of modern psychotherapy should cause us all great humility. It's appalling.
[00:59:30] John: And alarm. Yeah.
[00:59:33] Bob: Yeah.
[00:59:34] John: I spent two and a half years, Bob, helping a client undo the damage that an analyst did to her all the way down to, and I have never seen this in my career, a literal unraveling of self to the point where she was suicidal, wanted to kill herself.
[00:59:50] John: And even if you were to ask her what's your favorite color? She, she wouldn't know. That's the level of abuse that happened in that case. And [01:00:00] the, the, the gentleness and the patience that it took to help her put self back together again was just incredible and painstaking and slow and. very difficult at times, and also honoring some of the rage parts that held rage, you know, and then this client, it was, it was incredible.
[01:00:17] John: So yeah, it's, it's not lost on me. And I think that what's important is that we just thoughtfully question where all this stuff comes from, or these ideas come from, or even for me, I question where IFS comes from. And I did that on burning for the first time. I'm like, wonder where that protocol came from.
[01:00:33] John: So Yeah, just thoughtfully questioning kind of what we're using and having that humility of here's some things we know and we think work and really honor the client system and honor that self actually does know. And we're helping clients connect to self at all costs. And also there's a lot we don't know.
[01:00:50] John: And that humility is, is critical.
[01:00:54] Bob: We don't have any final answers.
[01:00:57] John: Bob, anything you want to say, like anything you want to [01:01:00] plug, so to speak in terms of. What you're up to now, your offerings, how you help people.
[01:01:06] Bob: I guess the big thing is Robert Falconer dot us all one word, Robert Falconer. Cause everything I've got is listed there.
[01:01:15] Bob: I've got. A ridiculous number of projects. I've got a book on Swedenborg, Immanuel Swedenborg, in IFS that'll be coming out end of this year, early next. I've got, you know, I'm working on three other books simultaneously, which is a definition of insanity. So I'm very busy. I love it. You know, I'm, I'm old.
[01:01:40] Bob: I'm 76. So I, you know, I feel the time pressure. I feel I have some very, very creative things that I want to express and get out in the world. So, I mean, it, my wife isn't too happy with me cause I don't want to go on vacation or anything. Yeah.
[01:01:59] John: This is [01:02:00] your version of a relaxing retirement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:02:05] John: It's funny. I was talking to my financial advisor the other day and I said, you know, this job is one of those jobs that When I'm 76, I am sure if I'm still around, I'll still be doing it and I'll probably be deeper than ever in my work and what I'm doing and hopefully writing my own books someday and all these things.
[01:02:25] John: So my own therapist who's 84, you know, is an inspiration for that. And the richness of his work is amazing. very, very deep and very profound. So I'm, I'm also grateful to this profession and that we can keep doing it and that the richness comes over time and over decades of doing this. And again, that humility piece is just huge to continue the learning and continue to bring what we think we know to the world.
[01:02:50] John: to clients and to the work. So yeah, Bob, thank you again for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thanks for glad we got the scheduling thing figured out. That's always an adventure. And yeah, [01:03:00] folks are interested. You can also watch the first interview I did with Bob. That was a while back. You can look for that on the feed, whether it's.
[01:03:07] John: Spotify, iTunes, or over on YouTube. And then maybe next time I'd love to have Bob back again. We can bring even more questions or maybe have a demo who knows we can get creative with it. But Bob, thank you again for, for doing this and please keep in touch.
[01:03:22] Bob: Okay. You're welcome. Good talking with you.
[01:03:25] Bob: Bye. Bye. Bye.
[01:03:26] John: Thanks for listening to another episode of going inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.
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