Self-Like Parts & IFS with Mel Galbraith of IFSCA
Self-Like Parts & IFS with Mel Galbraith of IFSCA
In this episode, I’m joined again by Mel Galbraith of IFSCA, a seasoned IFS therapist and teacher, to dive into what it means to be self-led in the therapy room. We talk about the subtle (and not-so-subtle) ways our therapist parts show up during sessions, and how being human—and having parts—doesn’t make us bad therapists. In fact, when we tend to those parts with care, we actually expand our ability to hold space for clients. We explore how therapist agendas can interrupt attunement, why love and curiosity are key to working with any system, and how the work we do on ourselves is just as important as what we do with clients. If you’re a practitioner trying to deepen your self-leadership and your IFS skills, this one’s for you.
Therapists must attend to their own parts in real time to maintain attunement with clients.
Effective IFS work relies equally on knowing the model and staying grounded in self-energy.
Clients feel safer and go deeper when therapists release the agenda and trust the process.
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Learn more about Mel Galbraith below:
https://www.youtube.com/@IFSCA
www.youtube.com/@mel.galbraith
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61568170237483
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Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] Mel: And I don't think it means that we have to be completely healed.
[00:00:04] John: Reasons why a lot of therapists become therapists seems to be
[00:00:09] Mel: like every single client. That's not your job.
[00:00:11] John: My therapy work is just as if not more important than the books I read. And it's exhausting for both of us to wait nine months and to do that and for me to be that guy for 23 other people that week.
[00:00:23] John: And whatever that looks like. They go, Mel, do you think I'm crazy? Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations.
[00:00:41] John: Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery. Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com.
[00:00:58] John: Before we get into today's [00:01:00] episode, I want to take a moment to chat about our sponsor, Jane, a clinic management software and EMR. Your evenings and weekends should be spent with loved ones not chasing down your patients and clients for payment. That's why Jane has designed a secure payment solution that helps reduce the amount of time you spend manually following up with patients.
[00:01:18] John: Patients can save their credit card details and insurance information securely through your intake form, which can then be conveniently processed after your time together. And if they've got an outstanding balance, you can send a payment request email or SMS that allows your patients to pay off their balance online from the comfort of their homes to see how Jane can help you reclaim your after work hours.
[00:01:40] John: Head to the link in the description or show notes to book a personalized demo. Or if you're ready to get started, you can use the code, John at the time of signup for a one month grace period applied to your new account. Alright, let's dive in. My guest today is Mel Galbrath. She's a level three certified IFS therapist, the COO and senior [00:02:00] staff of I-F-S-C-A and owner psychotherapist of MG Counseling Office.
[00:02:05] John: Mel, welcome back. Thank you for doing this again. And yeah, where do you wanna start?
[00:02:10] Mel: Ah, thanks John. It's nice to be back. As I was thinking about what might be helpful to talk about today with you parts of me really wanted to come and talk about the importance of being self-led with clients and this dance that we do with our parts.
[00:02:29] Mel: In session with clients because I think that it's a really important thing to talk about. And I think for a few reasons. But one of them being that like we're all human showing up relationally with other humans, and we all have. Different parts. Even if we've done a lot of healing or we're at the beginning of that healing journey, that there's gonna be these moments that clients name things that are gonna trigger a part of us or they're gonna bring something up [00:03:00] in our system.
[00:03:01] Mel: And I think that it's really important for folks as IFS therapists to. Notice when parts of us are getting activated with clients and even just being able to notice them in the moment, but then also circle back and work with them for our benefit, but also for the benefit of our clients. So I was hoping we could dive into some of that today.
[00:03:23] John: Yeah, that's great. Something that I think a lot about is how do we, and we touched on this a bit last time in the, in our first interview, is how do we know when we're blended or starting to get blended right when a part is here? In the middle of session or the beginning of session or the end of session.
[00:03:37] John: And how do we unblend a bit in the moment? And reasons for blending a bit. And I guess a question I would have for you is reasons why a lot of therapists become therapists. Seems to be, when I'm helpful and I take care of people and or rescue them, I'm more useful to them and they will not cut me out.
[00:03:55] John: Right? Or the way that I keep connection with mom when I'm seven years old [00:04:00] is by taking care of her. And self abandoning. And so here I am, 30 years later or whatever. Being a therapist. And so I naturally have a lot of these kind of self-like parts that when the client is hurting.
[00:04:14] John: A extra today. Or relapsing or on the verge of a divorce. We have parts that want to end, that we want to have. We have parts that want to stop the bleed, right? So what comes to mind around that whole piece?
[00:04:29] Mel: What I'm being reminded of is See Sys does a course the Heart journey or something around the heart journeys of therapists where she really guides if FS therapists and other folks to go into this exact question of what journey or how did your journey impact you in becoming a therapist?
[00:04:47] Mel: Yeah. And I think what you're saying is so true because. That, and it's so much easier to look at other people's stuff or to help them than it is to look inside and look at what's going on for [00:05:00] us. And I think that when we think about those protectors that might come up in sessions, right?
[00:05:04] Mel: I wanna help, I wanna care take, that's how I'm useful. That's how I got connection and attention when I was younger. When we're feeling that in session with clients and those parts come in, we know they're coming in for a good reason, right? They're coming in because we're feeling triggered and they're really looking inside at us.
[00:05:25] Mel: They want us to feel safe and regulated in that moment with the client. And when that happens and our parts are now inside looking at us, or because we're triggered, it's taking away that attunement. That we were holding for the client system, right? So it's then we might notice managers coming up trying to manage some of those therapist parts.
[00:05:49] Mel: And then we might move into more of a manager led space with clients in some of those moments. And that could even look like, even if we're feeling, let's [00:06:00] say, for example, a client's in, is expressing parts that are holding grief and I have grief that I haven't been able to attend to. My managers are gonna want to get me out of that, which then might also bring up parts that are feeling, oh, I can't help my client enough.
[00:06:15] Mel: I can't do enough for them. We might notice exiles that are feeling ashamed about that might be coming up. And all of this is happening inside of our systems. For us, while we're sitting with clients. And I don't think that part, the parts are bad that are coming in, right? Like even like you said, like, why are those parts coming up?
[00:06:36] Mel: And they're coming up with really valuable information for us. They're saying, Hey, Mel, something doesn't feel good inside and I'm coming to tell you about it, and then I'm gonna help you fix it in the ways that I know how to do that. And if they don't have to come in and do that with clients, we can stay more attuned and self-led with clients.
[00:06:58] Mel: And I like to talk about this, [00:07:00] and Seth Copal talks about exquisite self-led attunement. And I, there's something about that really lands for me because when we can feel that deep level of attuned or self-led attunement with clients. Two things are happening we're we have to be attuned with our systems to a certain extent, to be able to notice when some of our therapist parts are coming in to really help serve us, but that attunement with ourselves also allows us to have the deeper level of attunement with the clients.
[00:07:35] Mel: And I don't think it means that we have to be completely healed. I have to have all of the exiles, unburdened, and all of my protectors figured out before I can work with clients. But it's more about dancing with your system in a different way, right? Yeah. So I know that I have a client that's grieving and I get triggered in a session when we leave that session sitting [00:08:00] with the grief of those parts or even parts that the protectors that came up in reaction to that.
[00:08:07] Mel: Can help those parts not come into session as much later with clients. So then when we go back to these clients, we can hold this space that they need to be able to go in and process the grief or whatever might be coming up for them. And I might have mentioned this the last time we talked, but there's this piece and I can't remember if Dick, I heard Dick say it or someone else.
[00:08:29] Mel: That says, we can only take clients as deep in their system as we're willing to go on our own. Because no
[00:08:35] John: doubt Yeah.
[00:08:36] Mel: We can only stay so regulated when we're not, when it feels uncomfortable for us to have some of those parts or responses or reactions.
[00:08:44] John: Yeah. Yeah. I could go on an absolute soapbox about that, and I think that idea is pretty ubiquitous across all therapy models, or at least should be.
[00:08:52] John: Read that in a Irvin Yala book, in grad school. And I thought, man, I better get to work and keep doing my work and know that my therapy [00:09:00] work is just as if not more important than the books I read. Or how many CEUs I have. That's right. Or whatever. And so I, I believe that, and I preached that to my team of clinicians at the practice, right?
[00:09:12] John: Who have a lot of head knowledge. But clients and their parts can sense oh, this therapist hasn't really gone there. They haven't actually done this. And so I, yeah, take it upon myself to only apply something to, to my client, work that I have done myself or received myself and in, in constant therapy, so something that I was mentioning before we hit record is this idea of like, when you're a therapist, you're in a session, you're doing IFS and if it feels in the room, like the therapist is trying to make something happen here. And it's the same in the practice groups.
[00:09:46] John: With stepping Stones, with any practice group where folks are trying IFS and trying to make something happen, for me, that has become an indicator of my parts are here, or my kind of self-like helper therapist parts are [00:10:00] here and while they're good and I can do the dance with them.
[00:10:03] John: I would love for it to be more of me showing up in the room, literally holding space for the client, which, what does that even mean anymore? 'cause we've said it too many times as therapists and we have parts that go, that's not enough. It's not enough just to hold space. Yeah. What do you think of all that and that this idea of trying to make something happen?
[00:10:21] Mel: It's interesting. So earlier today I was prepping for the podcast, so prepping notes, but then also part of that is like, what parts of me are up going into a podcast. And I always have a part that feels like it's a big deal.
[00:10:37] Mel: If you say one thing, everybody's gonna know you screwed up. Tons of people listen to this podcast. And so that, that part always comes up. And so I was sitting in my system with that part and noticing other parts that were coming up around it. And I was just sitting in this chair and what I was noticing was like.
[00:10:55] Mel: As I was sitting with the part, something felt sticky, like [00:11:00] something wasn't landing for my part. And when I got curious about it, what I noticed was I had a manager there that was trying to just oh, let's just get that part out of the way because we're gonna go into this podcast. And when I noticed and that part could soften back, I was able to actually give connection and care to the part that says, doing a podcast is a big deal for me.
[00:11:23] John: Yeah,
[00:11:23] Mel: and so validating what you're saying. That if I, it was a therapist client relationship. There's a sense when a part has an agenda that's close spot. And there's this and sometimes we don't always notice, like I wasn't super aware that I had a self-like manager present, but the reaction of the part in me gave me an indication that something was happening that wasn't really landing for the part.
[00:11:48] Mel: And so I think even when we're doing our own work. There's these subtle parts that have agendas that wanna come in and just fix or push these parts outta the way for [00:12:00] their own. Positive intent. And so I definitely know that clients can feel that. And for parts, a lot of times I think our parts have already been tried to be pushed away or exiled or shamed.
[00:12:15] Mel: And so they have these like spidey senses that when someone has an agenda coming in, they pick that up and it can sometimes get their backup even more because it can. Almost decreased trust and safety in the session with clients where, oh, this person wants me to do something. Yeah. It's not, you're trying to get me to change, not resonating.
[00:12:35] Mel: That's right. It's not resonating for me in the exact same way.
[00:12:38] John: Yeah. Yeah. You, the dilemma is like. The client's parts go, I can feel my therapist parts trying to get me to change. And the therapist goes isn't that why you're here? And the client's yeah, but not doing it on your schedule.
[00:12:54] John: Yeah. Or now that I can feel you pushing, I'm not sure if I want to drink less this week. [00:13:00] I'm not sure if I wanna, have this hard conversation with my partner that we've been talking about or whatever. We have to have agency and autonomy and everything in IFS has to be invitational.
[00:13:11] John: That's why this invitational language piece is so important around, hey, one option today at the beginning of the session is to turn toward and get to know that critical part that you set is over your shoulder. That's just an option. What do you. What do you think? Do you wanna take that option or, here's a menu of options, right?
[00:13:27] John: And we can start off with that invitational language and then again, pretty soon and pretty subtly start to get a little blended with a part that's trying to make something happen here and that really sees this manager as a problem or as a part that's in the way. If I could just get this perfectionist part to quiet down a little bit, my client would get better and then therefore they would think this IFS stuff actually works.
[00:13:49] John: And think I'm a good therapist and I'm worth my a hundred and whatever dollars an hour and not leave me, or not tell everyone that I suck. It's oh, okay. So I find a, a [00:14:00] quick way for me to unblend a lot of times, especially with my critical parts that do show up in therapy is you really want this to go well.
[00:14:07] John: Or even my parts that like to teach, you really want to help these students get this IFS thing because you love it so much and it's changed your life so much that you really want them to get it right. Am I getting that right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I totally get that.
[00:14:19] John: Thanks for helping me with that. We're on the same page. I want them to get it, and I also don't wanna overwhelm them. So can we do that dance, or can you give me just an inch more of a space so I can help these students in a way that doesn't overwhelm them? And it's I guess so, but I, again, I just want them to, I want them to like it too.
[00:14:36] John: It's yeah, I totally get that. Of course you do.
[00:14:38] Mel: I love that. And I have such a tender spot for therapist parts that come in. Because if you have a client that wants to work on a firefighter that's using alcohol on a regular basis, you're a manager that says hey, how about you just quit?
[00:14:54] Mel: That manager probably cares about that client so much. Doesn't wanna see them, [00:15:00] struggling with alcohol use and the negative impact that maybe come along with it for that client. And so there's such a beautiful intention underneath. And when the manager comes in. To with their agenda, it's the firefighter's not actually feeling validated and in that moment, beautiful intention from therapist manager, but it's repeating probably the experiences that Firefighter has had over and over again.
[00:15:25] Mel: With the message of, you're bad, you need to stop. This is a problem. And what's really beautiful about being able to sit with our therapist parts that we can say to that manager, of course you want this part or this client or this part to stop drinking. You're noticing that it's having a negative impact on them.
[00:15:46] Mel: And if that part knows, there's a different way I. What if we listen to how come that part feels like it's so important to drink. That shift is going to cause our managers to have to work less and it's [00:16:00] actually gonna be more effective for the client to be heard around this experience.
[00:16:05] Mel: And so it's allowing ease for our systems. To show up with more space and more curiosity. But it's, excuse me, Al also inviting the client system to have a different experience and be heard in a different way, which is also creating more ease for the client. Yeah, exactly right. So it's like a beautiful invitation for client and therapist to have a different experience when us as therapists can do that.
[00:16:33] Mel: The U-turn, and I wanna speak to something that you said earlier. Which is why I think this topic is so important. And you said it's almost just as important as the learning, right? Sitting in with our own systems, and I a thousand percent agree and why I think this is so important for IFS therapists is because most folks who start learning IFS and training in IFS and using IFS wanna be really [00:17:00] skilled at it.
[00:17:00] Mel: To be really skilled and excellent. At IFS, it's two things. It's 50% about learning the material, and then it's 50% about being able to stay in self because you could know every single thing there is to know about IFS, but if you do it from a manager, it's not gonna be. As easy for your system and it's not gonna be as impactful for a client.
[00:17:24] Mel: And the flip side of that is if you only know how to be in self, but you don't know anything about IFS, you're probably not also going to be very good at being an IFS therapist. And so for me, it's also this kind of roadmap for folks to really become deeply skilled in this work and to really be able to hold.
[00:17:46] Mel: A bigger space of self-energy for the clients to heal in the ways that they need to heal inside that container that we can hold in a more expansive way when we are really attuning to [00:18:00] ourselves and our systems in a different way than we might have had before. Have had done before.
[00:18:04] John: Yeah. When we have parts that are trying to get it right, or I see students trying to follow the steps or not skip an f, and something I might say to them is, don't forget number one, you're a therapist using. IFS, right? And you're a person in the room with this other person.
[00:18:22] John: And so don't forget to look up from your notebook and be with that person in front of you, even if parts of you are wondering, where am I at with the steps? Yeah. Where am I at with the unburdening? Or even letting the client know, Hey, you might see me looking down. At these steps. 'cause I, there's a part of me that wants to make sure I do get it right and I'm thorough with this IFS stuff, but I'm also really here with you and I'm tracking you.
[00:18:43] John: I'm just again, like holding this space for you. And that attunement right? It's, it is important and yeah. It's hard to do both, right? It can be kinda like riding a bike at first Totally. Until it becomes more fluid and you can be in the moment. Just right now I don't know what you're gonna say.
[00:18:58] John: Next in this podcast [00:19:00] interview, but I can wait and see what you might say next, and I can trust my ability to then respond based on what happens next. In that kind of improv element that is always there with therapy. If I don't know how this is gonna go, I don't know if the client's gonna come in and go, John, I'm healed.
[00:19:14] John: I've had an amazing week, and I didn't drink and I whatever the goal is. Or they come in and it's the worst day of their life. There isn't a whole lot I can do to know what kind of session is it gonna be? But self. Can hold both Self Can go with it. Self can roll with it.
[00:19:28] John: Yeah. It's like a, I remember, I've done martial arts my whole life and my Muay Thai instructor would always say simple but not easy. Simple but not easy when we're learning techniques. 'cause it's true, like throwing a punches. Simple. But not easy. And there is a lot of. Nuance in the technique of it and when to apply it and how much pressure to apply and what whatever.
[00:19:47] John: How to turn your elbow. How to turn your wrist. And so that can be the case too with IFS and figuring out like what is the model, what's my understanding of the model, and how do I know when I'm doing the model? And for me I think [00:20:00] about IFS has a texture to it. When I have clients or that are experiencing that texture, which is really just self-energy and feeling a sense of love toward my parts, that's the essence of it.
[00:20:16] John: That's the essence of what we're trying to capture, what we're trying to double inside the system. Is that sense of love and compassion, bring it to whatever parts of you need it. So in that, versus getting caught up in, like I said, is this a man? Is this John? Is this a manager or is this a whatever?
[00:20:31] John: And it's doesn't matter.
[00:20:32] John: Just be with the part. And be with your own parts that are coming up regardless of what their label might be, which is really just there for therapists to try to better conceptualize the model and conceptualize how a system works. And how parts end up in their roles,
[00:20:45] Mel: and I don't think, I think what's important too is that it's not about getting it perfect because you're never gonna go through an entire session, no matter how experienced you are with having no parts come up. And so it's not about getting it perfect.
[00:20:59] Mel: It's again, [00:21:00] it's about that dance, right? And at the beginning it's challenging, right? Because you're still figuring out who are my parts? What does a part feel like? And when you're first learning, especially if you are a seasoned therapist in a different modality, right? Seasoned and really skilled. Yeah.
[00:21:18] Mel: Those managers that know how to do really good. Therapy in a different way are gonna dance in a lot, right? Yeah. If you get stuck, those things
[00:21:27] John: should be trickier. Students to, to teach who've been doing therapy for 30 years versus those that just got outta grad school and they're like, I'm used to feeling new at this.
[00:21:35] John: I'm used to it. Feeling clunky, right?
[00:21:37] Mel: But I think too, with those, 'cause in the beginning they're, those managers are gonna jump in a lot, right? Yeah. You're gonna feel stuck and it's oh, I'm not good at this. I know how to do DBT or CBT or narrative or psychodrama because those parts are really skilled at it and they might not know there's a different option.
[00:21:55] Mel: And so it's the more we notice those parts, the more we sit with those parts, [00:22:00] the less they will dance in. The more we'll be able to stay self-led. And over time it's not about no parts coming in, but over time you'll be able to notice those parts. They'll dance in and then they'll dance out more seamlessly.
[00:22:16] Mel: Yeah, and in my experience when I first learned IFS, my protectors refused to let me use it with clients. For a variety of reasons. And if I didn't turn inside, because I could have learned. As much about IFS as I wanted. Yeah, those parts were saying it's not safe to use IFS. Based on past experiences with religion and spirituality, if I didn't do a U-turn.
[00:22:41] Mel: Sit with those parts, I wouldn't be as skilled as I am in IFS now. And so it really took both learning the model and sitting with my parts that were scared and resistant to, to go into this model, to bring me to where I am today. Yeah. And even now, [00:23:00] I still do so much work in my system around showing up for clients in the ways that the clients.
[00:23:07] Mel: Really need me to hold space for them, and I notice that I can fall into a different space of love. Yeah, for my clients, right? I heard Martha Swee, and it might have been in her book or maybe a training where she said, you need to love your clients like a hundred percent. You need to love your clients.
[00:23:24] Mel: And it didn't resonate with me the first time I heard her say that, but the more that I've worked on my system and my parts. The more that deeply resonates with me is that over it, I can come into my sessions no matter what my client's bringing today, no matter what parts need attention, and I can come from a space of love and care and compassion, and I might get parks activated by some clients.
[00:23:50] Mel: But I can hold those parts. And when your parts know they're gonna get attention from you later, they're going to get to be heard and seen. [00:24:00] They're gonna trust that it's okay to wait. I. Right, but that's that dance that we learn to do with those parts so that there can be that implicit trust and they can let us be with clients and then dance back to those parts later when we can really give them the space and the attention that they need when we're not with clients.
[00:24:21] John: A hundred percent. That to me, the essence of love in a relationship is I don't need you to change. I. I don't need you to change. For me, it's the same thing for a therapeutic relationship. Years ago I heard do you know this guy Terry Real? Yeah. Relational life therapy.
[00:24:39] John: I don't know that much about his model, but I just saw like a clip of him doing this this demo on stage with a couple, and he was telling the audience, like the therapist, he said, you have to practice every day, every session, every hour, every minute. A spiritual detachment from your client's outcome.
[00:24:56] John: Which is completely different from holding [00:25:00] hope that they get to where they're going in life. And I, again, I teach this to my clinicians at my practice in figuring out how, what do you need to do to get to that place, right? But a place that is, in my opinion, more therapeutic and in line with what Terry is saying is I have hope in my heart and love for you, and hope that you get to where you're going.
[00:25:20] John: In life and on this journey. And if that includes breaking up with that person or not breaking up right, or making it work right? Getting divorced or not getting divorced, drinking or not drinking, quitting your job or not quitting your job, what, whatever it is, right? That's genuinely okay with me and I've already made peace with all of that.
[00:25:37] John: And then again, the paradoxes when I've made peace with all of that. Parts go, oh, he's not trying to take my job away.
[00:25:44] John: So maybe I could experiment with changing me, maybe I could experiment with softening or drinking a little less this week. And I'm just going you could experiment this week with that, or you could not.
[00:25:54] John: Yeah. And if you were to experiment with it, what would that be like for your system? What do other parts think about that? That's, yeah. How [00:26:00] aware are these parts of self, that self could do this experiment of drinking a little less? Or hearing some difficult feedback this week from my partner, my coworker, a client or whatever, and staying in more self than in a apart.
[00:26:11] John: And so I, and clients can feel that, and again, their parts can feel that when I have an agenda for them to get them to stop drinking or whatever. That's for me. And then paradoxically they, they don't like to be told what to do and neither do I, right? Yeah. I don't like when people, I can feel like someone's trying to change me, right?
[00:26:28] John: Imagine you're sitting down with someone and having a debate about any I ideas, political views, religious views, anything like that. The second a person feels like you're trying to change me, right? We're trying to change my ideas, my values, my beliefs, our protectors come up, right? Of course, we galvanize, right?
[00:26:44] John: We calcify. It's like that. What does being defensive mean? It's like that's a Freudian term, which means e ego defense. I'm defending my ego.
[00:26:52] John: You're trying to change me or you're trying to show me my badness. You're trying to show me the ways in which I'm bad.
[00:26:57] John: In my opinion, it's also why interventions don't work, [00:27:00] right? It's or these interventions on TLC or whatever, you try to get someone to stop drinking
[00:27:03] Mel: yeah. It's what I hear when you're talking is. Giving parts choice and control, which is something that's really been taken away from them.
[00:27:11] Mel: Yeah, even the drinkers right there isn't, there's not, it's not a hundred percent a conscious choice when the drinking is protecting a big exile that's holding a lot of vulnerability, right? Because it's that safety piece. And so giving choice and control even around experimenting. Unblending even around being able to say something controversial that they've never been able to say before and it be heard in a different way, right?
[00:27:39] Mel: Is when our agendas so well intentioned, softened back, something different happens for the client. And even in. That can be a really nice redo experience, like not a quote unquote redo that we do with exiles, but it's a new experience that we're giving clients systems. [00:28:00] I remember Csy said to me once.
[00:28:04] Mel: Mel, it's not your job to take clients from here to a hundred percent healed. Exactly. Ev like every single client, that's not your job. Yeah. You're going to, walk with them. Some clients from here to here. Yeah. Some clients from here to here, some clients for longer. You take them where their system needs to go in the period of time that you walk with them on this, that journey, my managers have held onto that so tightly because it's so true.
[00:28:32] Mel: We're not going to heal every exile or protector of every client, but we hold space for what the client needs to do in the timeframe that we. Spend with them, and it might not be the exact agenda that our therapist parts think needs to happen. And as you were talking, I was reflecting on how there's.
[00:28:56] Mel: There's specific cultural burdens I think [00:29:00] that therapists hold around having to be the expert and having to be right and having to know exactly, if client's at a, exactly what step B is and really being able to tell the client this is the right way and IFS really. Debunks that or really goes in an opposite direction of what if we didn't have to know for the client, like we can hold self-energy and have an expertise in IFS, but what if the client was actually leading what it was?
[00:29:32] Mel: What if it was actually about what their A to B and not our A to B? And I think that's really hard for a lot of us when we've been told, right? Or there's this assumption that we're supposed to be. Expert. Perfect. All of what it means culturally to be a coach, a therapist, a practitioner, a healer.
[00:29:53] Mel: Yeah. And just to sit in that seat.
[00:29:56] John: Yeah. The hooks and the traps are everywhere in a [00:30:00] single session. And clients and with their well intending parts the little traps are, client. Tells you about the issue, and then they look at you and they go, Mel, what do you think? Or do?
[00:30:12] John: What do you think I should do? Or do you think my drinking's a problem? Or they go, Mel do you think I'm crazy? And there's a party that wants to just go, client I don't think you're crazy. Oh, thank God. Mel doesn't think I'm crazy. Therefore, if I ever feel crazy again, I just need to come back to Mel and hopefully she has a slot for me this week.
[00:30:27] John: And go, Mel, I need you to reassure me, right? In other words, I need you to be my surrogate. My surrogate attachment figure. Who tells me if I'm okay or not, right? And again, it's what is relational therapy and therapists that are like, I'm a relational therapist, or I do relational therapy, right?
[00:30:42] John: And this is coming from a dude who the entire first part of my career and my graduate school was around working interpersonally and intentionally becoming this surrogate attachment figure for people, right? So I give this anecdote like, one of my first clients in grad school.
[00:30:58] John: When she was a little kid, [00:31:00] anytime she would cry, her dad would laugh at her, right? And usually had a beer in his hand. And so of course she comes to therapy and she's I'm having intimacy issues. It's hard for me to feel close to my partner. He says that I never show emotion around him, right? And he's never seen me cry, right?
[00:31:14] John: That's like the issue. That's why she's here. Lo and behold, and seeing this through this interpersonal process lens, it takes me nine months. To be this figure and work with this transference, using psychodynamic terms to become this person or a person in her world. And lo and behold, finally it's all too much and she cries in front of me.
[00:31:34] John: I. One day, and I can invite her into that moment. And as she's crying, I can say, what's it like to cry in front of me? And she's just it's terrifying. It's horrible. And then I, she's looking at the ground and I say, what do you imagine you might see if you were to look up and see me well that you'd be judging me or that you'd be laughing.
[00:31:50] John: Would you, would it be okay to look up and just see if I'm judging or laughing? Do you see laughing or judging? She goes, no. I go, how much can you take that in? And she goes, yeah, that I can. [00:32:00] I can take it in. Yeah. So take all that in. Take as much in as you can. And just see what that's like to cry and not be laughed at.
[00:32:06] John: Right? That took me nine months and it's exhausting for both of us. To wait nine months and to do that and for me to be that guy for 23 other people that week. And whatever that looks like. And again, like kind of me as the healing agent. And part of why IFS was such a game changer for me and is a game changer for me, is it puts self.
[00:32:26] John: That seat of the healing agent of the attachment figure, right? The attachment figure that was there all along and is now quite capable of holding that part, who is still afraid of crying, right? Because let's say I do that big moment, I do this corrective emotional experience with my client, and then she walks out the door and I go, oh, dear God, I just hope if she cries when she gets home, her boyfriend doesn't undo all my work, and judge her when she cries.
[00:32:50] John: Because if he does right, it undo does some of my work and she go, comes back and goes, see John, this is why I don't cry in front of people other than my therapist. But if he does is warm and attuned and all these magical things, [00:33:00] then hopefully the healing gets in and right.
[00:33:01] John: And it's further corrective and she can externalize that into her world. But again, that's the model I came from and there's so much that needs to happen to that, for that to happen. And there's so much psychically that it would cost me to do that and to be that person for her. And for. 23 other clients.
[00:33:16] Mel: Clients ask me questions like, do you think I'm crazy? I have a couple different responses depending on the client. If the client has a history of constantly being told, you're crazy. You're crazy. This doesn't make sense, gaslit like a history like that. Where a client says, do you think this is crazy?
[00:33:35] Mel: I might actually say, no, I actually don't think you're crazy. I think it's really hard to be in your system and I think you're doing everything you can to try to figure that out. And so I, there would be moments for me where I would name, no, I actually don't think you're crazy. This is what I'm actually seeing.
[00:33:53] Mel: Yeah, because for some clients that have a history of that, they really need to hear. No, I [00:34:00] don't think you're crazy. And this is what I'm seeing, right? It makes a lot of sense. Why your parts are acting in the ways they are. Yeah. And for other clients, it might be a part, another part, right?
[00:34:10] Mel: That says do you think that's crazy? And I might just invite them to reflect. What do you hear inside? When you ask me that question, but that would be very dependent on the client. On the client situation. Yeah. And so I might respond in a couple different ways depending on, their history or how much self energy is pre present with clients.
[00:34:31] John: And the difference might be with that question is is the client asking you, Mel, like to be the expert? On me am I crazy versus are you judging me, right? Do you think I'm too much? Yeah. Do you think all these thoughts are too much? And you can, and sometimes it is exactly the right thing to do to nip that in the butt and go, this is not too much for me, right?
[00:34:52] John: I don't think you're crazy and addressing that directly, right? Because it's like a, you're getting this protector concern right off the bat are you judging me? Do you think I'm too much? 'cause my partner [00:35:00] just said I'm too much. I need to go to therapy. And they're going, Mel, do you think I'm too much?
[00:35:04] John: And sometimes the best thing we can do is say, you're not too much.
[00:35:08] John: If that feels genuine. And if we're in self and we can go, yeah. I can hold all of it. Yeah. And all these parts that are worried and pissed off and drinking and cutting. They're all okay with me.
[00:35:17] John: Yeah. Yeah. They're welcome here. Genuinely welcome here. Yeah. I welcome them here. I'm not afraid of them. Like that. Courage is one of my favorite. Of the Cs, right? Can you really welcome all those parts, especially parts that are loud and vexatious or pissed off or do risky, engaging, risky behaviors?
[00:35:35] John: As a therapist, you have to get to a place where, again, these parts can literally show up and work in the room, and they will test you. And they're testing that container. They're testing this container going, can I actually show up? Can I curse in here? Can Mel really handle it if I come and here's what the F's really going on.
[00:35:52] John: Or is Mel gonna shut down and get blended and go whoa. This is a lot.
[00:35:55] Mel: You said something really important earlier. The difference between saying it from a [00:36:00] part or self. And I think that's such an important distinction because if my client says, Mel, do you think I'm crazy?
[00:36:06] Mel: And I come in from those beautiful caretaking parts that we talked about earlier, right? Or parts that wanna be liked? And I say, I don't think you're crazy. I totally think your parent is, and we collude with them to try to be friends. That's a different energy than no, I actually don't think you're crazy.
[00:36:24] Mel: I'm really noticing all these parts working so hard for you, and that must be really hard for you to experience all of that. There's a different energy between, is the part bringing that in? Same answer, or is it coming from a place of self?
[00:36:40] John: Derek. Derek would specifically comment on that type of therapy and I remember him always going, I don't know what that is.
[00:36:47] John: I don't know what they're doing in the room. If therapists are like doing that with their clients for 10 years and they're coming back and they're like basically gossiping, and you're like, yeah, just commiserating with your client. He's I don't know what that is, but here we're doing something else with this [00:37:00] IFS stuff.
[00:37:00] John: You
[00:37:01] Mel: and it's nice to, in IFS, to be able to offer our parts options. Like for folks that have maybe really worked in different ways for a long time, and it might be their managers coming in and working in ways, they were trained. And it's nice that IFS offers this different way of working where managers don't have to come in as much if they don't want to.
[00:37:21] Mel: Other parts don't have to pop up as much in therapy, and we can really do this from a different energetic space inside of us. Which is also an. Which is a nice invitation for a lot of our parts to take breaks, while we're working and we will have parts, you're gonna have note takers and timekeepers and schedulers and like all these parts that are gonna be dancing in the realm while we're doing the work with clients.
[00:37:45] Mel: But a lot of our protectors don't have to put in so much effort in when they're with clients in a different way.
[00:37:51] John: Yeah.
[00:37:51] John: One of my clinicians was talking recently about how a client came in and was really spinning out, and the clinician was I just didn't know [00:38:00] how to help them, basically.
[00:38:01] John: And I found it annoying that they were like spiraling. And I asked this clinician, I said, just out of curiosity, show me right now and we're on zoom. Show me how far forward in your seat you were leaning. When this client started spiraling. And the clinician was like it was like pretty far forward like this, like leaning all the way in.
[00:38:21] John: And I said, okay, so just notice that, and I want you to imagine that client right now and imagine her spinning out like that. And then see if you can come back to neutral. In your seat and just sitting more upright and see how that feels energetically. And then do something that I do a lot in session.
[00:38:38] John: If you were to see me in session and I'm actually sitting a bit further back, right? I'm like intentionally leaning back a little bit and it's not a, this is too much for me. I need to not catch any of this.
[00:38:48] John: It's. Part of the way that I don't get so blended and come in with an agenda, right?
[00:38:55] John: Or fixer part or whatever. Or of I need this client to shut this down 'cause it's too much for my [00:39:00] system, right? And I'm afraid that parts might take it on as my own, right? And get into this codependent dance. Like I can't be okay if my client's not okay. If my client's spiraling, I'm spiraling.
[00:39:10] John: Parts of me are spiraling, until further notice.
[00:39:12] John: And so when the clinician was able to do that, and again, just feeling semantically, what it's like when a part is here and it's splendid. There's a lurching, there's an energy, there's a a leaning in, there's a, a.
[00:39:24] John: Anxiety to it. And attention, right? Because that tension is oh crap, I gotta do something, or I gotta do extra today in this session because the client is spiraling.
[00:39:32] Mel: So many helpful ways that we can notice our therapist parts when they come into session, you might hear them, they might convince somatically. They may take you out for a little bit, right? You might get distracted or you may dissociate a little bit in sessions and, and what I wanna encourage folks that are watching this is even to just make note of some of those parts that are coming in, right?
[00:39:56] Mel: More complex clients, you're probably gonna notice more parts [00:40:00] coming in. Less complex clients, you might still notice lots of parts coming in. You might notice less because I wanna encourage folks as they advance in their IFS journey, taking more advanced courses like stuff with Bob Ner or Stepping Deeper or other advanced courses that.
[00:40:18] Mel: There really is a different level of self energy needed as we start to take more advanced courses or as we start to work with more complex clients. And so I really wanna encourage folks to really just gently noticing their parts. And it's not about. This was a bad session because I had 20 parts come in and this was a good session because I had one part come in.
[00:40:41] Mel: But just noticing who are these ones that are trying to get your attention when you're with clients? Because the more you do that, the more you're gonna be able to take in the advanced information, the more self-led you're gonna be and the more that you're gonna be able to sit with more complex clients when they're [00:41:00] really working through some deep.
[00:41:01] Mel: Some deep healing worker or being with some really big parts. Yeah.
[00:41:05] John: That's great, Mel. We're somehow running out of time yet again. Time flies when we're having fun, so with that being said, it's a good segue to number one how do you all help? People learn IFS with both stepping stones and stepping deeper.
[00:41:19] John: And then how can people learn more about the programs?
[00:41:23] Mel: Say, ask me your question in a different way. How do we help people with stepping stones and stepping deeper?
[00:41:28] John: Yeah. Tell folks a little more about stepping stones and stepping deeper and how they can learn more. Sign up. Got it. Got it.
[00:41:35] Mel: Yeah, so Stepping Stones is our.
[00:41:37] Mel: Kind of first foot into the IFS door, and it's a 16 week program that goes through what are parts, some theory around IFS, what is self-energy how to work with, how to be a parts detector and find parts, so like the difference between parts detecting and reflective listening. How to work with [00:42:00] protectors and protective concerns, how to work with exiles and the protocol of working with exiles and some different things like around when exiles push back or it's not safe enough yet.
[00:42:10] Mel: Like how can we create safety in systems. And then diving into our topic today, therapist parts and helping students really notice their therapist parts and how they can notice. When they're in self and when parts come in. And then stepping deeper is our course around working with complex trauma using IFS.
[00:42:29] Mel: We talk about doing implicit and explicit direct access and unblending. We talk about how to use the therapeutic relationship in the session for when clients can't drop in and do insight. So how to use the therapeutic relationship to create more safety and what do we do when clients can't do insight?
[00:42:49] Mel: And so how to map parts and create a scaffolding to create some more safety in the client system so they can eventually drop in and do insight [00:43:00] working with pre-verbal parts, attachment trauma. And dissociation and the differences between preverbal parts and attachment trauma and the difference between working with dissociative disorders and dissociative parts.
[00:43:14] Mel: So the differences between the two. And then we, in the last module, we do a deep dive into working with exiles and how they might show up differently in complex trauma and how the unburdening might look differently when folks have experienced more, more complex trauma. Yeah.
[00:43:32] John: Great stuff. We'll be sure to put a link to the programs in the description for folks interested. So feel free to click through that, check out the current offerings. Also, you guys do some great like weekend workshops where you do dive into specialty topics or have people come in and talk about a really specific thing, like something in IFS, which is really neat.
[00:43:51] John: Something else to look into. But yeah, both great programs. Stepping Stones was. Transformational for me personally and [00:44:00] professionally. Of course, Derek was my teacher. And it just gave me. The confidence I needed to start applying the model and to really start my journey and go, I can start using this with clients and then figure out what I don't know and where else I need to keep growing.
[00:44:14] John: Which is why you have stepping deeper and consultation and all this stuff, like it's just this model is so rich and there's so many layers to it. And yeah, it's also important to take 'em one step at a time and just start with where you're at and get comfortable, with the basics of the model.
[00:44:28] John: And then. Grow into it from there. Thanks Mel, so much for doing this. It's a great conversation. Again, you're welcome back anytime. And we specifically had people asking for you to come back, so that's how you know you're popular. And yeah, come back anytime and thank you again.
[00:44:43] Mel: It was my pleasure, John. Thank you.
[00:44:45] John: Yeah, keep in touch. Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to [00:45:00] work with me one-on-one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.