Resistance and IFS with Virginia Jenkins
Resistance and IFS with Virginia Jenkins
In this episode of Going Inside: Healing Trauma From The Inside Out, I sit down with Virginia Jenkins, a mindfulness-based IFS therapist, to delve deep into the complexities of resistance and how it manifests in trauma healing. We explore the nuances of why clients might resist taking care of their own parts and the importance of honoring resistance rather than bypassing it. We also discuss practical tools for both therapists and clients to approach stuckness with compassion and curiosity, rather than frustration.
Key Takeaways
Honoring Resistance
Resistance in IFS therapy often signals deeper pain and unmet needs. It’s crucial to approach it with respect and patience, recognizing that it often arises from a place of deep emotional wounds.
Sitting with Stuckness
Virginia introduces a powerful exercise called "Sitting at the Wall," which emphasizes the importance of not pushing past resistance too quickly. This approach allows for the underlying grief and pain to be fully acknowledged and worked through.
How Therapists Work with Resistance
As therapists, it’s important to recognize when our own parts might be getting activated by a client’s resistance. By doing a "U-turn" and connecting with our own self-energy, we can better support our clients in their healing journey.
Learn more about Virginia at https://www.theresistancetherapist.com/
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Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] Virginia: Actually the entire system, really, really, if you want to get down to it, any of the protectors and even some of the exiles, it's a, it's all resistance. It's all resistance in the context of trauma to connecting with, to experiencing those really painful, what were overwhelming.
[00:00:23] John: Before we dive in today's episode, I want to thank our sponsor, Jane. Jane is a clinic management software and EMR that helps you handle your clinic's daily admin tasks so you can free up your evenings and weekends. The team understands how precious your time is and recognizes that charting can often be the most time consuming part of your practice.
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[00:01:12] John: Or if you're ready to get started, you can use the code "JOHN" at the time of sign up for a one month grace period applied to your new account. Let's dive in.
Virginia Jenkins, AKA the resistance therapist is a licensed therapist with over 10 years of experience working with trauma. Also, she is, she's also one of the most resistant people she knows.
[00:01:33] John: She supports you to get unstuck by working with not against resistance, whether you're on your personal health and wellness journey or professional supporting others. On theirs, Virginia. Thanks so much for being here. And maybe you can kind of expand on your bio a little bit there in terms of who you are and how you got here and what you're up to lately.
[00:01:55] Virginia: Great. Well, also, thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here. And happy to [00:02:00] share and what the first thing that comes up is like, just, I really love resistance. That's how I got here. And it was not like the plan of my, of my life. I actually intended a totally different trajectory professionally.
[00:02:13] Virginia: But I ended up working with court mandated clients as my first job out of graduate school. And I loved it. And it surprised me how much I loved it. And as time went on I ended up becoming a supervisor and supporting interns. And a lot of what I found they struggled with was the, I don't know.
[00:02:32] Virginia: I'm going to stop air quoting, but just for the beginning, like resistance, just always imagine that it's an air quotes as we get into it a little bit more. But that, that's what so many of them struggled with. And I was like, this doesn't bother me the way it seems to, you know, trigger other people. And it's not that it was all rainbows and butterflies for me.
[00:02:48] Virginia: And so as I went on Yeah, it was just something I felt really comfortable working with. And then fast forward to about a year ago actually almost exactly a year ago was when I came up with the idea of this project and it was on the [00:03:00] heels of me looking for a therapist for five years. So I, through my process of working with court mandated clients, people would come in and straight up tell you, I don't want to be here.
[00:03:12] Virginia: I don't want to be here. I don't want to do this in a little bit about your experience that you probably know what that's like. And what I found was like, great course. You don't want, why would you want to be here? You know, let's just start there. And it felt so useful for me. And I also got that from the clinicians that I worked with as a, as a client.
[00:03:29] Virginia: And so for me, it was like, Of course, it's not a problem. And then I started seeing new therapists and moved to another country. I live in Spain now. And so I think there are a lot of factors, but I found it was not like that. I did not receive kind of the welcome of my resistance in quotes that I just felt like was me sharing what my experience was, what was going on for me.
[00:03:50] Virginia: I have some wild stories. It got to the point where I was, I would ask my friends, I was like, is it me? Like it do, is there something wrong with me? And every [00:04:00] time I would have a conversation, I'd be like, no, like, that sounds like that was a really wild experience. And so I was like, there's a need, there's really a need to understand how to work with resistance in a way that feels good for everyone including the clients.
[00:04:13] Virginia: And so. That's where this project was born was to help to help helpers to help health and wellness professionals, but also to support clients who are having these experiences. And I think wondering, like, what was that, you know, so I'll leave it there.
[00:04:28] John: Okay. Very interesting. Can you go a little bit further?
[00:04:32] John: And I guess, like, what is your definition of resistance?
[00:04:38] Virginia: Yeah, so the way we usually conceptualize resistance is it's a no, right. So the most simple way of saying it is just a way of saying no to something, but we only call that no resistance when we're saying no to something that we think we should do.
[00:04:54] Virginia: Someone else thinks we should do. Health and wellness world thinks that we should do, and that's when we label it [00:05:00] resistance, and that that exists within the context of what I call the resistance triangle, which is, there's a judgment. There's a judgment that says resistance to this, say no to this is bad, and your motivation to do it is good, and so we're going to get over here and support your motivation, reject your resistance, and that's sort of how we conceptualize resistance.
[00:05:21] Virginia: What I'm proposing, which is very influenced by IFS, but was even before I even knew about IFS from my contemplative psychology background, is that they're actually just both attempts to meet a need, right? Me saying no to that thing that I should do isn't just a no to that thing. It's actually a yes to something else.
[00:05:42] Virginia: And it's about getting curious about what it, what is that resistance actually trying to move towards, right? The resistance has a motivation. Motivation is actually resisting something too, right? So as we start to break it down, there's a, there's a deconstructivist part of me that's like, this just doesn't even exist.
[00:05:56] Virginia: Like that's the totally wrong thing to call it. And I call it that for the [00:06:00] sake of us all know what we're knowing what we're talking about. But that's sort of the, the reframe is that what if it's just about meeting a need?
[00:06:10] John: Okay. So yeah, to go a little further, even with that, how would you frame resistance from an IFS perspective or a parts perspective?
[00:06:20] Virginia: Yeah, I feel like resistance. It's any of our parts saying no. Right. And it could be firefighters. It could be managers. It could even be connected right to, to an exile. That doesn't believe what we're proposing that maybe like you're inherently good, right? And that exile part is like, no, I'm not, I'm, you know, the belief is the resistance.
[00:06:40] Virginia: And so what I did in the, the reason why I'm defining it the way that I am, and I speak about it in this way to kind of lift it up out of any particular. You know, a framework or way of working with clients because I want it to be accessible to personal trainers, as much as it is to therapists, as much as it's to nutritionists or, [00:07:00] or physical therapists.
[00:07:02] Virginia: But when you look at it from an IFS lens, it's what you could call any part that's saying no to what it should do. And it can look like so many different things. Well, what occurs to me is something that I just quickly, like, is that entire system, really, really, if you want to get down to it, any of the protectors and even some of the exiles, it's, it's all resistance, it's all resistance in the context of trauma to connecting with, to experiencing those really painful, what were overwhelming things, right.
[00:07:36] John: Yeah.
[00:07:36] Virginia: Which is why I love IFS.
[00:07:39] John: Yeah.
[00:07:39] Virginia: Because it gives you space for that.
[00:07:42] John: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Working with it rather than against it. The big part of IFS and kind of the, the, the spirit of IFS you know, in, in grad school, I remember we were kind of, what was offered to us pretty explicitly was thinking about or labeling a client as resistant [00:08:00] is kind of a harsh label or kind of in other words saying they're difficult client.
[00:08:03] John: Right. I understand that your definition is Goes, goes beyond that really to honor resistance. We were also told to kind of label it hesitance in a way like client is not yet ready to change. So how do you think about that? Like resistance versus hesitance?
[00:08:21] Virginia: Yeah, I think, I think it's really accurate to say that no, there's no such thing as a resistant client.
[00:08:30] Virginia: And again, You know, for the sake of going deeper into this that I might say there is really you can't call any part fundamentally resistant because resistance contains motivation, motivation contains resistance, we all have resistance, we all have motivation. And so I think hesitance is, is, is accurate, because I think it also gives a little bit more space for what I'm making the argument for, which is that it's not just no, right. And I do like that works. [00:09:00] It gives a little more space for that.
[00:09:04] John: Yeah. So, yeah. Walk us through then how you work with resistance or hesitance and how it's yeah, how you're kind of framing the, the, the work. And the ideas.
[00:09:17] Virginia: Yeah. And so for me, it's essentially a three step process and it looks a little different, you know, if I'm offering support to professionals and supporting them to work with clients who feel stuck. I also use that word a lot too, that really, you know, we call it resistance. It gets labeled resistance. But really it's, The reason why we're in that judgy mode and calling it that is because there's a stuckness, there is a stuckness and that is true.
[00:09:42] Virginia: And so first of all, we look at what's your relationship to that stuckness, to what you might be labeling resistance. And so before I get into my agenda, before I get into, and especially if we're taking this outside of the therapy world, you know, where there might be a little more space or understanding around this, Saying, [00:10:00] you've got to work with yourself first, what comes up in you when you experience your client being stuck, what comes up in you that leads you to label it resistance.
[00:10:09] John: Yeah.
[00:10:10] Virginia: And so that's the first, and I, to stop saying my resistance to their resistance, I call it meta resistance, right? That as clinicians, we might have, or as, you know, health and wellness professionals, we might have this meta resistance. And so we start there. And if it's my own resistance, it's the same thing.
[00:10:27] Virginia: What do I believe about? This thing in me that's saying no to something I'm supposed to do. And often there's a lot of judgment or shame feeling like I should not have this, right? There's not, especially the more popular health, wellness therapy, all of this gets, I think there's more and more shame about like, why is something in me saying no to something that theoretically is so good for me?
[00:10:51] Virginia: Right. Whether it's the, you know, the ice baths or the, you know, eating certain foods or whatever, you know, so we start there [00:11:00] and then the second step, once we kind of clear that and maybe reframe our relationship to resistance and maybe even by that point, we're not even calling it resistance anymore. The question starts to be, okay, well, what need is that in IFS language would say part, right?
[00:11:13] Virginia: What need is that part trying to need for me? And so we pause there and we explore that. And then the final one is, you know, what do we want to do with that? Right. What does that look like in, in daily life and going from there? And that's going to look different again, if you're a physical therapist or, you know, a coach or whatever it is But that we, we take it inside first.
[00:11:36] John: Gotcha. Okay. What, what do you find are some common reasons for resistance?
[00:11:47] Virginia: I mean, anything, so many things in general, it's protective, right? Anything that when, when we are going to make a change, I really like this image of [00:12:00] imagine that you could take anyone to therapy. Or, or to a personal trainer, to a nutritionist, whatever you think they need, you can take them there and you can sit them down and you can tell the professional here's what's wrong with them, right?
[00:12:12] Virginia: They're not working out enough, or they have a lot of anxiety, or they seem depressed, or, you know, think they need to eat healthier, whatever it is. And you get to tell them everything that's wrong. And then you walk away and that person is sitting there and was like, well, how do you think that person feels now?
[00:12:30] Virginia: All right. That's how people's resistance feels when we take ourselves to therapy, right? These motivated parts. Take us to therapy, dump the resistance and say, you know, help it out. And it's, it's anything from feeling discomfort, not knowing how to do what we're doing. It could be shame. And to the point of this podcast, a lot of it is trauma.
[00:12:52] Virginia: So much of it is trauma. So much of it is if I do this thing. That I think I'm supposed to do. It's going to threaten me somehow. [00:13:00] It's going to threaten my safety. It's going to threaten my comfort, my familiarity. It's going to make me vulnerable somehow. And I think about myself with going to the gym.
[00:13:10] Virginia: I really have struggled my whole life with physical exercise. I look back to elementary school, middle school, high school, all of it. I hated gym. I hated moving my body and I hated really getting my heart rate up when I look back now, that's what I didn't like. And I just started personal training a year ago to same trip.
[00:13:27] Virginia: I decided to do this project also picked up personal training. And so it's been really interesting as I've been doing this project to kind of watch myself doing this, this thing that I have a lot of. Parts that are like, no, no, no, no, no. And some of it as I explored my resistance was about, it was about, Oh, but I don't have enough time.
[00:13:46] Virginia: I really do need more fun in my life. I'm, you know, recently a full time step mom and a doc parent and all of running my business and all of this stuff. And so some of my resistance was about those things, which is totally valid. But as I sat with it [00:14:00] more and more, so much of it was like, I don't want to feel that way again.
[00:14:04] Virginia: Actually, my heart rate going up is really, really terrifying for me. And I don't like it. And I don't want to go there. And as I sat with that, I was like, Oh, trauma, right? This puts my body back into an experience that feels really scary to me. And that's always been true. And as I did that, and so I, even as I'm talking about, I can see like, Ooh, it's going down, down, down.
[00:14:24] Virginia: I can feel it. And so I think so many people underestimate. How much of our resistance is really about something way, way, way deeper. Right. And how often then it gets labeled as laziness or Oh, it just doesn't matter to you. It's like, you don't, you just don't care about your health. I'm like, but I do so much.
[00:14:46] Virginia: I worked on farms, like I care about my health. And so, yeah, just to, it can be a whole range of things and included in that. And so often it is something much deeper.
[00:14:58] John: Yeah, [00:15:00] yeah. That makes sense. So yeah, going further with the, the trauma piece, which, yeah, to your point, that's really what our show is about.
[00:15:09] John: And How do you see the two, the interplay of the two between trauma and resistance?
[00:15:18] Virginia: I think resistance is implicit in trauma, right? If there's been trauma, we're going to have parts that don't want us to go there. Right. Again, going back to this idea of like our motivation, for example, brings us to therapy because I know logically I know trauma is getting in my way.
[00:15:38] Virginia: It's because of trauma that I struggle with these things or have a hard time. So I want, I logically want to work with it. Right. And so we have to assume as professionals that especially when they're coming explicitly for that, as professionals, as therapists, especially that we're gonna hit resistance, right?
[00:15:58] Virginia: And so it's actually impossible to [00:16:00] be a trauma therapist or a trauma informed therapist or trauma informed professional in any kind without knowing and feeling confident in your capacity to be with. Resistance.
[00:16:10] John: Yeah.
[00:16:10] Virginia: And also for me, because resistance is a no, right? Even if it's a no, we think we shouldn't have often in trauma.
[00:16:17] Virginia: Our no is compromised. It was either not effective, not accessible to us. It didn't keep us safe. It made things worse sometimes. Right. And so there's this meta process going on in the, whatever relationship we're in with any professional that can heal that on a, on a relational level. Oh, if you can handle my resistance.
[00:16:41] Virginia: Right. Maybe it's not bad. Maybe I can own my know a little bit more in so many other areas of my life.
[00:16:47] John: Hmm. Got it. Yeah. Well, the, the resistance, I guess you could also see it as the polarity. Like you mentioned the thing kind of like when I know better or a part of me knows [00:17:00] better, a part of me wants to eat healthy and work out.
[00:17:03] John: Part of me says, screw it. What's the point? I don't deserve to be healthy. And so It feels quite good to do the opposite from that part's perspective. And from an IFS perspective, neither are self or especially self led deciding intentionally I'm going to take the night off and eat ice cream and watch TV, or I'm going to intentionally do the opposite and do the more healthy things and be as self led as possible in either direction.
[00:17:36] John: Choice, right?
[00:17:38] Virginia: Yeah. And that that's the idea, right? When we reframe that triangle, you know, if we roughly categorize those as motivation and resistance, that rather than judgment at the top of that triangle, we swap it out for understanding, aka self, right? We swap it out for compassion, that both of these are attempts to meet needs, attempts to meet [00:18:00] needs.
[00:18:00] Virginia: And while the project is called the resistance therapist, one of the keys is ultimately that that third step of like, okay, what do we do now? What does this look like in life is about the resistance and the motivation, right? You can't leave either one out. I need to tend to both. What is the need I'm trying to meet by sitting on the couch and eating ice cream?
[00:18:19] Virginia: And what's the need I'm trying to meet by, you know, working out and eating healthy. And how do I Listen to both. How do those both become a lot of my clients like to see them as board members, right? That these are my board members now. And how do I have both of them chip in, in terms of the decision that I'm going to make.
[00:18:38] Virginia: Right. And so that's the shift there to hold that polarity.
[00:18:45] John: Makes sense. Okay. And I guess zooming out a little bit, like what, what is the goal of the project or kind of the mission?
[00:18:56] Virginia: The mission really is to create a space, [00:19:00] even to back it up a little more, you know, I've been thinking, cause this is just getting off the ground.
[00:19:05] Virginia: It's been a year and I've been slowly behind the scenes. I've been running a full private practice. And so putting the pieces together and I was thinking about it and I was like, ultimately, if even just. One person feels like their resistance makes more sense to them, right? If they shift their relationship to it, for me, that's such a, it's just such a gift, right?
[00:19:28] Virginia: So for me, it's about creating a space where people, whether it's because a professional, you know, understands this in a different way and brings this to their client. And it creates that space for that client to feel seen and heard, whether it's because someone who's on their journey comes across it and it helps them to stop being at war with themselves.
[00:19:46] Virginia: I think for me, it's very personal. It's very personal because on my own journey, I started out with my resistance being really covert. And so I kind of categorize categorize is the wrong word. [00:20:00] Like kind of seeing it as a spectrum. Between covert resistance to overt resistance. And in the middle, we've got the, I call it the Amberberg resistance.
[00:20:08] Virginia: So, you know, no one is purely either one and we're different with different things that we're working on, different things that we struggle on. But on the average, it was much more covert, right? I was like, I love therapy and I want to, you know, know myself and heal my traumas. And so I showed up as the good client and I got rewarded a lot.
[00:20:27] Virginia: And people didn't see my resistance as much as I look back and I'm So grateful for my very alternative training at Naropa university and that there was, we were taught that nothing, there's nothing that doesn't enter into the process of healing. There's nothing, it's a problem, right? All that whole mentality.
[00:20:48] Virginia: And so I had some of that, but still with myself, even as I was shifting with clients, I still struggled with myself. Kind of having this war with myself that I was wrong for the places I was stuck and I was [00:21:00] wrong for not wanting to be healthy. Also worked on organic farms for a long time. And so in that world, there's a lot of like stuff around like food and nutrition and what's right and what's wrong and what makes you a clean person or an eco person.
[00:21:12] Virginia: And so there was all of this struggle in me trying to be this good client, this good person. And my resistance was really covert. And so as I worked with people who had more overt resistance, my court mandated clients, something in me was like, This feels like a relief. It felt exciting to me to sit across from people who are like, forget this whole thing, except maybe with more flowery language, right?
[00:21:37] Virginia: I don't want to do this. And there was something in me that was like, Oh my God, me neither. I don't want to do this either. Actually, I really don't want to look at my trauma. I just want to feel better now.
[00:21:49] John: Yeah.
[00:21:49] Virginia: Right. And it started to wake up something in me that made me feel alive. And made me feel real and honest with myself.
[00:21:58] Virginia: And it was funny because as I started to [00:22:00] internalize that, and when I, by the time I arrived in Spain and was looking for another therapist, I was super comfortable with my resistance. And so it got more and more overt and it was interesting because there's a sweet spot where I was like, I'm good with my resistance.
[00:22:15] Virginia: You know, the professionals I'm working with are good with it. I love working with my clients. It's very energizing to just be so real and so direct and then to come and be like. Oh, this actually isn't going well and this is really painful and like, I don't, I'm very confused at how, because I'm like loving my resistance.
[00:22:35] Virginia: I think it's great, but these people, my experience was that parts, parts of the people I was working with were maybe feeling. Threatened or overwhelmed, you know, we talk about our therapist parts and I could feel them coming out, like wanting to fix me or make me better, make me comply with all of this stuff.
[00:22:53] Virginia: I even worked with an IFS therapist who, when I had a part that was resistant to IFS, the part that was like, I don't [00:23:00] want to be the one to take care of my parts. Like this sucks. I hate this. The response was, but you are, you're an IFS therapist, you know that that's how it is.
[00:23:09] Virginia: I was like, what? Cause in my frame, right, you could say that's a resistant part.
[00:23:17] John: Yeah.
[00:23:19] Virginia: But it was just expressing a need, right? It was, it was part of my process and it totally pulled me out of my vulnerability, of my openness. And so I kept feeling this wound. I kept getting wound. I kid you not. I have seen seven therapists. Since I moved here at every single time, at some point, this wound came up.
[00:23:36] Virginia: And that doesn't mean there wasn't great stuff. I got great stuff also out of every single relationship. And I started thinking like, I'm a therapist who's really comfortable with resistance and loves resistance and loves my resistance. And this is this painful for me. This is this hard for me. I was paying spending sessions sort of trying to repair the relationship or help the [00:24:00] professional understand what had gone wrong or what had happened for me.
[00:24:03] Virginia: And eventually I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. Right. I want to pay someone to, and I watched, there was my own parts taking over of like, Oh, I have to teach you how to take care of me. Right. And so that pain, that process and thinking about my own clients who come to me having had similar experiences, not knowing that they're allowed to give me feedback, not knowing that they're allowed to say no or disagree or all of these things.
[00:24:31] Virginia: It's like, so that's a lot of my motivation is I know what it's like from a therapist. I can also really know how painful it is from the client side. And there's just a strong desire and you're like, I don't want anyone to have to go through that.
[00:24:43] John: Yeah.
[00:24:45] Virginia: Right? And I also don't want clinicians to have to go through that, that frustration.
[00:24:48] Virginia: Like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. When it's like, Oh my God, there's so, there's some things that you can do that make it so easeful and take so much of the stress out of it. And you can feel so much less burned out. [00:25:00] And I want that gift as well. And so it really comes from that, from that place of just like, longing for more ease for everyone and less pain and less hurt for everyone involved.
[00:25:14] John: Makes sense. Yeah. That's a powerful motivator and Your lessons on the couch were extremely valuable to your formation as a therapist. And that's where a lot of the lessons can come from. I think can and should come from if we are in fact doing the work, which should be fair, not all therapists are. And it can get kind of sketchy in that, in that case.
[00:25:41] John: Yeah. So, well, and how did that therapy journey play out? Did you Eventually find someone where things clicked and you kind of kid go toward this wound again and make some progress with it.
[00:25:55] Virginia: Yes, it did ultimately. And what was interesting is it was my own [00:26:00] journey of slowly shifting, like kind of dealing with, with myself, with those parts that wanted to help.
[00:26:06] Virginia: Right. It was my supervisor. And I started to notice after like the third therapist where this happened. And I paid for like two, three sessions where I wasn't basically like in my supervisor mode. That's why I should be like, Oh no, no, no, no. Okay. There's something I need to learn here. Right. About when to let something go.
[00:26:25] Virginia: Right. Cause I learned so much about rupture and repair and the therapeutic relationship, and I think it's so valuable and I don't expect a therapist to be perfect. But it's that classic situation where there's an original wound or difficulty or misunderstanding, but then it's being, you know, deepened by the reaction, you know, of, of the therapist.
[00:26:43] Virginia: And then that's triggering stuff in me. Then I have to take care of you to take care of me rather than saying, Oh, I can walk away. Right. I don't have to stay here actually. And learning to be able to do that. And then simultaneously and so I was constantly becoming more and more of an advocate for myself when I would sit down [00:27:00] in the 15, 20 minute discovery call and being really, really clear.
[00:27:04] Virginia: And what was so fascinating to me was the discrepancy between how clinicians perceived themselves. When I would say, here's the deal. I know that there are parts of me that are really resistant, even as much as I love IFS. I believe in it 100%. I think IFS applied to quote unquote, as always resistant parts is the only thing.
[00:27:25] Virginia: It's the only thing that works. I would get into it and that wouldn't be how it played out. They'd be like, Oh yeah, yeah, of course. And that's what I believe too. And all of this stuff, right. And their story about themselves didn't line up with the reality. It's true for me too. Right. I have made those mistakes.
[00:27:41] Virginia: I will continue to make those mistakes. Right. And I'm not that I'm on my high horse. Like I'm always perfect about. You know, resistance. I'm not. I'm not. But it was so interesting to see. And so I started both becoming really clear in my discovery calls. I started ending things when it didn't feel safe for my [00:28:00] system anymore.
[00:28:00] Virginia: And it was a lot of it was reclaiming, like, I'm allowed to be picky. Right. And there's a fine line between, and that's why I would check on us and very honestly check in with my friends because it was like me and therapist friends too. And I'm like, I'm totally willing to assume if this is, this is my parts, just being too picky and that's a level of resistance of like, no, one's good enough for me.
[00:28:21] Virginia: You know, maybe that's a part that's here and I'm not going to say I don't have that part either. But ultimately the payoff is that I have found someone and who knows how it will go. And I also think that's been the lesson too, is like. Maybe this will be, you know, 10 really great sessions or maybe it'll be a year and then something will shift and then I get to change, right?
[00:28:44] Virginia: I had a therapist once for five years, right? So I'm part that really just wants to stay, stay, stay. And so that was part of the healing for me too, is like, I get to, I get to walk away when it's not working anymore and I get to choose who I work with and I get to trust that my system, [00:29:00] when it feels safe, those things do soften.
[00:29:04] Virginia: They're becoming a really strong advocate. Like, no, I'm standing by my resistance and I'm not gonna cave.
[00:29:13] John: Got it. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. What, what else do you feel like is kind of missing from the conversation so far? What else do you want to build on a little bit with the time we have left?
[00:29:26] Virginia: I think I, one of the things. One of the things that comes up is I think maybe even deepening on on trauma and the resistance to wanting to be the one to take care of ourselves. I feel like it's such an interesting part that comes up a lot. And I find that it often comes up with trauma. Usually after we've done a good amount of work, right?
[00:29:48] Virginia: Usually it's like right when we're at the frontier of. We're with the exiled part, you know, we've gotten there. We're kind of taking the steps towards setting up the unburdening. Right. And [00:30:00] sometimes it's really loud, often very grief filled or upset part comes in. That's like, I don't want it. I don't want it to be
[00:30:07] John: me.
[00:30:10] Virginia: And for me, that's one of the most powerful things because that, that was one of the wounds for me was working with that part, you know, with the have that lived experience of how it was to just be. Told like, Oh no, it's got to be you without any space for the grief, right? Without any space for how painful and how hard it is to accept the responsibility for something that potentially could have been taken care of appropriately by someone else at a different time.
[00:30:40] Virginia: And ultimately still would have been my responsibility one day, but my journey to that responsibility would have been very different and much more developmentally appropriate.
[00:30:48] John: right.
[00:30:50] Virginia: And then I think that. Especially speaking to IFS practitioners to really be aware of that, that even us, even our training that is so sensitive to [00:31:00] resistance, I feel like we can get in our own IFS agenda, we can get our own desire for people to connect with self and to be so excited about, as excited as we are, you know, and to not slow down enough to, to stay, you know, With those parts with the seemingly like anti anti IFS parts, because I think it's going to kick up our therapist parts in a different way than maybe lots of other resistances would.
[00:31:29] John: Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, I mean, the hesitation to have to be the one to take care of a part, let's say an exile, for instance, makes a lot of sense for a lot of people, especially in the case of relational trauma. Someone has failed that person at some point. In their life or their development or when they really needed someone and someone often a caregiver or a partner or a friend, whomever missed the mark [00:32:00] and there's an injustice in that and sometimes we have parts that hold on to that injustice so much that they say, it's not fair that I have to now be.
[00:32:10] John: that I never had. Right. And we can honor that, that it's not fair. And it is also the path forward for, for healing. And that whereas you were, were not capable back then of being your own kind of Loving consistent parent that you're capable now or self is, is capable now while still again, like honoring that the unfairness, the injustice of it.
[00:32:39] Virginia: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that often what I find, I do an exercise that I really love called sitting at the wall that came, but well before I, the IFS. I was sitting on the client who didn't want to cry, really desperately didn't want to cry. And there's this whole like the whole narrative, right? That [00:33:00] therapy is about crying and that's the evidence that like you're getting somewhere or something like that.
[00:33:04] Virginia: And I was like, what if we just sit at that wall? What if we just stop before you start to cry? What if we could just sit here and imagine that you could just like sit down and kind of lean against that wall? And it's similar with this. Like, this is a part that's saying, no, no, no, no, no self don't come in and take this part.
[00:33:22] Virginia: Like, I'm so angry. And I'm so upset. And I don't want it to be you. I want it to be that person over there, you know, and, and what happens if we just sit down at that wall and listen, because often what we're missing, if we try to bypass that protector part, there's a whole lot of grief,
[00:33:40] John: right
[00:33:41] Virginia: and whatever the wall is, in this case, we're talking about this particular kind of resistant area.
[00:33:46] Virginia: Part often what we don't realize and what our motivation doesn't realize and our enthusiastic whether therapist parts or enthusiastic self healing parts if we're the client in the situation don't realize is that [00:34:00] if there's a wall to the extent that that wall is really strong. That's the extent to which it's really, really painful.
[00:34:07] Virginia: Whatever is back there. Right. Cause I know for me and my process, when I finally did, I did not with that person work with that part. I think I actually ended up doing that parts work on my own. That was the other gift of this process is actually really saw how I built a lot of trust in my capacity to do parts work on my own because there were lots of periods where my system was like, Oh, trust anyone you're not doing any for again.
[00:34:30] Virginia: And so I worked with that. Part, and I sat down with it. It really, really needed me to take seriously how much pain was back there. And I think that's, that's, as I do this more and more and more and more, I find that that's often the key, right? Is that I'm taking seriously or no, I'm taking you seriously and trusting that if you're saying no, it's for a really good reason.
[00:34:54] Virginia: And when it's, especially when it comes to trauma, the feelings are really, really big and they're [00:35:00] really overwhelming. Totally. And so when we come with that on deeply, deeply honoring that, especially when we start to get frustrated, if we're the person, you know, supporting someone, if we can remind ourselves the extent to which this is frustrating for them, for me, for everyone that it's a reminder to kind of step back and be like, okay, that's giving me information to connect me back with self, to help them connect back with self.
[00:35:24] John: Yeah. Yeah. Doing the U turn as IFS puts it yeah, that's, that's the opportunity for, for us as, as practitioners to do that, even when it's hard or especially when it's hard and we want to quit or get bored or you know, you know, walk away. So, yeah, sometimes it's about it's about leaning in. Yeah, makes sense.
[00:35:50] Virginia: One of my favorite, one of my favorite moments that kind of symbolize it was in my internship when I was an intern and I get I have all the all of my training [00:36:00] was like there's space for everything and not having an agenda and it was very out the way frame like. The contemplative psychology program is it's like very much like how to be in self, none of the, like how to work with the parts directly like that aspect.
[00:36:14] Virginia: So I loved IFS was like, Oh my God, you're giving me tools. You're giving me something a little more tangible, right. That fits directly in with the whole frame that I was given. And I remember I would look back and I'm like, Oh yeah, my therapist parts were super active. I was trying to like help and be good and help this person.
[00:36:32] Virginia: And at some point. Someone might say, right? Oh, they're just very resistant, you know just stuck and I sat there and I was just leaned into my, my training, which was to say what's happening. And I was like, Hey, I just want to let you know, I'm feeling really stuck right now. I feel really stuck. And, and the client looked at me, I was like, me too.
[00:36:54] Virginia: Oh my God. I feel so. And all of a sudden. Everything just moved and [00:37:00] it was like a total, it was like day and night from that one, just me being willing to just stop and in my own way, like it's a therapist, just like sit at my wall that I was at and name it like just something like that. It can be so powerful to give a space for someone to be like, because they have resistance actually doesn't want to resist.
[00:37:22] Virginia: It wants to do something. It wants to move you towards. Something or move you away from danger, but even moving away from danger is moving towards safety, right? It proactively wants something for you. And so when we give it attention, we can shift from being against it to like, rather than this is like, Oh, if I just join you, Oh, we're going actually, I can go with you in the direction you're trying to go and support that.
[00:37:46] John: Yeah.
[00:37:47] Virginia: And we're not at war anymore.
[00:37:50] John: Yeah. What a relief for, for everyone.
[00:37:54] Virginia: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:57] John: Wonderful. Virginia, before [00:38:00] we wrap up, I guess what else should people know in terms of the project, you know, plug your website, stuff like that. And then your actual offerings, whether it's for, you know, clients or practitioners.
[00:38:13] Virginia: Yeah, well, where we're at right now is I just put out two free self assessment and guide kind of combos, one for professionals and one for non professional slash seekers, health and wellness seekers. And so those are available. And they're really packed with a lot of kind of the framework. Right. The resistance triangle, how we're reframing it, some basic steps for that you can apply right away to your work with clients, to your work with yourself.
[00:38:43] Virginia: And so that's there. And my hope is that even if you don't follow up with any other services that that actually gives you People something because it's just so important to me to have this reframe out there in an accessible way. And so right now, [00:39:00] eventually, by the end of the year, my hope is to have courses out again, one for professionals, more for non professionals.
[00:39:05] Virginia: But that I am working directly as a supervisor consultant with any professionals and health and wellness professionals that are looking for support with stuck dealing with stuck clients. And that I do have my private practice for anyone who's looking for support directly with their own stuckness in their own process.
[00:39:24] Virginia: And I think something I want to highlight too, is that this is, we're talking about health and wellness, but also like spirituality. Right. There's a lot that comes up around that, Oh, I should be meditating or I should be engaging in these states and all of that stuff. And so for me, the umbrella of health and wellness also includes that, so people who are struggling with feeling stuck around those kinds of practices to this can be a big support for that as well.
[00:39:48] John: Totally. Totally. Wonderful. We will of course put links to everything in the the description or the show notes, whether you're listening by audio or a video on [00:40:00] YouTube. So we'll make sure all of that is in there. And yeah, folks can reach out if you're interested in following along with Virginia's work and her, her projects, then yeah, you'll know.
[00:40:09] John: Where to find her. So yeah, Virginia, thank you again for, for, for doing this. And yeah, excited to see what comes of the next phases of, of your work.
[00:40:21] Virginia: Great. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.
[00:40:25] John: My pleasure. Keep in touch.
[00:40:30] John: Thanks for listening to another episode of going inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on TikTok @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.
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