Psychedelics and IFS with Payam (Part 2)

Psychedelics and IFS with Payam (Part 2)

In this episode of "Going Inside," I'm joined by Payam for a Part 2 of Psychedelics and IFS. We discuss the complexities of healing, the role of facilitators, and the importance of setting healthy boundaries when finding the right facilitators. 

Key Topics Discussed:

1. Facilitators must be attuned to their clients' needs, delivering therapeutic interventions in a way that is safe and manageable for both the mind and body.

2. It's crucial to be aware of facilitators or therapists who may use their social following, looks, and charisma to exploit clients, creating unhealthy power dynamics.

3. Learning to discern genuine connections from compulsive attractions is vital. Slowing down and tuning into your body's responses can help you make more informed, self-trusting decisions.

Learn more about Payam at https://www.payam.com/

Interview Transcript:

[00:00:00] Payam: There's a lot of irresponsible facilitators who don't know what they're doing and they're like, Oh, the medicine will take care of it. And that's just complete and utter bullshit and bypass. And I, I'm outspoken as much as I'm outspoken about my fears around therapists getting their hands on these medicines.

[00:00:17] Payam: I'm also very outspoken about facilitators. 

[00:00:20] John: On one hand I share a lot of excitement and in the promise of this work. And a part of why I like you is because of your. Your humility, [00:00:30] your thoroughness that you bring a team approach to this work. You do not take it lightly. You're not here just to make a buck, which I see a lot of that happening now.

[00:00:38] John: And it's horrifying. Realizing even how ancient some of this work is and these protocols in this medicine is, and then people just like making an Instagram ad for it and doing it in the Santa Cruz mountains, you know, this weekend, if you want to sign up, if you can afford the pay. You know, 2, 500 or whatever.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:01] John: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me, trauma therapist, John Clarke, for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, Going Inside is your companion on the path to healing and self discovery.

[00:01:25] John: Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one on one at [00:01:30] johnclarketherapy. com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. I want to welcome back my guest for today. His name is Payam. Payam is a psychedelic somatic internal family systems practitioner and medicine carrier who interfaces with various traditional and non traditional psychedelic compounds in the treatment of trauma and chronic pain.

[00:01:52] John: He was just here last week. And so if you missed part one of this conversation, make sure to check that out. We're going to be building off of that [00:02:00] today. I also want to say for, for, for one last week was the, just the start of a really wonderful conversation and opening up this world of psychedelics and plant medicine.

[00:02:14] John: And trauma healing, IFS, things that are very relevant to, to this show and to, to my work. And so I was really happy to meet Payam and to bring him in as really the first guest to talk about these topics. I can also say from [00:02:30] last time hearing about Payam's story personally about how he came to this work and, and as a, as a recipient was Very relevant to me and, and very important for me to hear about kind of walking the walk in this work, knowing that there's also a lot of people that just kind of talk about it.

[00:02:47] John: And so I will also say last time you let us in a prayer, which was the first time that's happened on this show. And I really enjoyed it. And I've had multiple people reach out to me. And in fact, one person reached out last week [00:03:00] and said, I have never in my life felt So moved by a prayer, or since I was like, you know, a child sitting in church until last week and that that prayer moved her so much.

[00:03:10] John: So I know that that resonated with a lot of people. My hunch would be, you probably want to offer that again if I were 

[00:03:17] Payam: to do that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you again for having me. I just wanted to thank you for giving me the platform, being so open minded, so gracious and offering this, this [00:03:30] wisdom from various practitioners that are working above ground or underground.

[00:03:35] Payam: And again, thank you so much for giving me the space to speak. I really honor you for that and support the work as it moves forward. You got it. So we'll just do a short prayer, and we'll go forward.[00:04:00] 

[00:04:09] Payam: Great Spirit, the Potak, Ketsequatl, Aya, Ape, the Heart, the Fungi,

[00:04:21] Payam: our Teachers in Body and Out, our Guides, our Ancestors,

[00:04:29] Payam: the [00:04:30] Medicine Gatherers, the Medicine Makers, and the Medicine Carriers, the Chumash Warriors, the Lakota Wisdom Keepers.

[00:04:44] Payam: Our partners, our children, our families, and our community. Mother Earth,

[00:04:57] Payam: thank you for nourishing us with your abundance [00:05:00] and medicines. Thank you for all the healing, all the lessons you've given us through darkness and through pain, so that we may see light, so we see abundance and joy, so that we can heal, so that we can learn. so that we can release and come together in love and gratitude and [00:05:30] patience with an open heart to meet one another,

[00:05:38] Payam: to see one another as we perfectly are. Thank you for bringing John and I together in brotherhood and the spirit of healing, shared knowledge to show wisdom, to learn and to teach. And to pave the paths for all the healing that will unfold [00:06:00] as we move forward gently and lovingly on this path. Oh,

[00:06:13] John: thank you. And welcome back. Thank you.

[00:06:20] John: Last time we heard a lot about who you are and how you got here. And we started to get into these conversations around the work you do. [00:06:30] We also talked just before hitting record around you shedding more light on your process for walking someone through these. Ceremonies, these medicines. So if that still feels relevant, take it away and we'll see where it takes us.

[00:06:45] Payam: Yeah.

[00:06:48] Payam: Just before we started, you mentioned going to a workshop with Peter Levine and really seeing the beautiful process of the somatic, the human experience. And we had touched [00:07:00] on the cognitive versus the somatic, the, the layers of the psyche. I'd like to combine mind and body as the psyche. So when I say the psyche, I'm referring to the entire system of our experience physically and mentally.

[00:07:17] Payam: So as I speak and mentioned psyche, I just want the listeners to know that I'm talking about the entire system. You'd, you'd point it out and they make these parallels between. I'm [00:07:30] working, and I'd like you to remind the audience and so forth about making sure that you're in self. Checking your parts or parking them, so that's this piece that I'd like to start to work off of.

[00:07:44] Payam: So being in hollow bone as a facilitator, and then understanding what is the system of someone's doing understanding which protectors are showing up and I'd like you to touch on some of the somatic things that. [00:08:00] People present with maybe some of the armoring and the structural and I'll feed off of that.

[00:08:06] Payam: Understanding how parts can come in and hijack the self out or dissociators. I'll touch on that with medicine. And we can build from there if you like.

[00:08:18] John: Yeah. Let's start there. I had a question on both. If you're starting this process with a client or recipient, whatever you would call them. [00:08:30] The seeker. The seeker. How do you start and how important is self self energy for you and for them? Yeah. And how, how do you know when you're safe enough to proceed?

[00:08:40] Payam: As I mentioned, and this is coming from Chris Burris's work of the bandwidth or the malleability or flexibility of the psyche. When I work with someone, there's oftentimes are referred to a therapist or a therapist of theirs is referring them to me. And I just do a maybe a 45 minute conversation with them to see where they're at.

[00:08:59] Payam: I [00:09:00] do quite a bit of intake work to get a story of their mental health or physical health, look at their ACEs score and incorporate all this, these pieces into the conversation to see what they may have diminished as not important, which is actually the most important pieces because they've. Been accustomed to existing in a particular way.

[00:09:20] Payam: And as I'm speaking with them and interfacing with them, seeing if there is

[00:09:29] Payam: [00:09:30] calm and if self is present, basically. Right. And that's the first, first part of the process. Then they work. Simultaneously with a person on my team, who's IFS trained or their therapist and I work with the therapist or part of a person that's part of my team and we kind of get a good sense of their system.

[00:09:57] Payam: You know, what's showing up with the [00:10:00] biggest, parts are that are interfering with the process of being in self and so forth. So we have like a good landscape of, of their psyche. And, and once they're ready, then they do about two or three calls with me where we go over what medicines may be appropriate for them, depending on their bandwidth, their malleability and the trauma that they're coming with and what's stored in the body.

[00:10:25] Payam: And we collaborate together. And in explaining what the process is [00:10:30] like, they can make some informed decisions of what the medicines they may want to approach and, and what we may work with. So that's the, the, the initial phase, John, and I can get into that, the actual ceremonial phase of it, if you want a little bit later, but again, let's go back and forth on this.

[00:10:51] Payam: So. Yeah. 

[00:10:52] John: Yeah, I want to hear more about, you know, flesh, how do you help them flush out their goals, so to speak, and maybe there's a better word [00:11:00] for it in the work you do a concern I have, and a trend I see is a lot of people who come to plant medicine, hoping that it'll be this silver bullet, right?

[00:11:11] John: That will kind of finally fix me. Cure me for some people. I also realize like there's a desperation of so many things up until now haven't worked or I've had this crippling depression or this PTSD or this addiction and they come to plant medicine and they say like [00:11:30] this has to be a thing or they say this has to be the thing or this is this is the end of the road for me.

[00:11:36] John: If this doesn't work, I'm going to kill myself. There's also, I was reading Peter Levine and yeah, I went to this training with him yesterday in his autobiography that I just read, which I, I highly recommend he, he talks about plant medicine and shamanism, and there's a documentary called the last shaman where this young guy from, you know, new England goes to the Amazon and seeks [00:12:00] and he goes into it with that.

[00:12:02] John: Type of mentality right of a last ditch effort and actually literally says if this doesn't work then in 10 months I'm giving myself permission to kill myself how do you work with that when that shows up in the balance between like Having hopes and intention and a strong belief in these these medicines being able to help but also not putting all your eggs in this Basket and looking for kind of a miracle cure 

[00:12:26] Payam: I have worked with people who have been suicidal and wanted to end [00:12:30] their lives. 

[00:12:30] John: Yeah, 

[00:12:31] Payam: They have tried various modalities to know if they'll and fortunate for me up to this point as a therapist, you know, it's, it's not if, but when someone commits suicide. You know, and, and so I'm not certainly making no guarantees of what psychedelic work may be like for someone who are working with me, but psychedelics, there's no guarantees.

[00:12:55] Payam: But these medicines again, depending what's me work with have a really [00:13:00] remarkable way of unburdening again, working with the right medicine, the right facilitator who understands and taking the pressure off for the impulse to want to end things. so much. 

[00:13:11] John: Yeah, 

[00:13:12] Payam: you know, and 1 of the, 1 of the people that I worked with, he was in really bad shape.

[00:13:16] Payam: This actually happened recently. He came to the conclusion that if he killed himself, he would have to do it all over again, except he would have to live another 40 years and perhaps run into someone like me to then again, find that [00:13:30] there's no way out, you know? So whoops, so might as well not end things because you're going to have to repeat it again.

[00:13:37] Payam: And interestingly enough, this has been a pattern with people who have been suicidal have come to me. They're like, well, I went there and I realized that if I put it, put my suffering to an end and just have to repeat, repeat next round There's safety measures that I put in place. If there are people that are in bad shape and having a system and people within the system 

[00:13:57] John: about those safety [00:14:00] measures, 

[00:14:00] Payam: Safety measures.

[00:14:01] Payam: I, if people are in really dire, dire straits I have a therapist on, on call, or we make sure that they have a therapist or we find someone that isn't trained and understand psychedelics and, and is able to support these peoples. What medicines being worked with is also critical in that space. And there's no guideline of which medicine to work with, which dosage.

[00:14:24] Payam: It's really about the organism and what the organism can handle. Right. And [00:14:30] so gently bringing someone into the medicine space with appropriate medicine. This is probably 1 of the most important pieces of the work. MDMA for me is probably. 1 of the 1st medicines I ever touch when I work with someone, especially if they haven't sat with with medicine ever.

[00:14:50] Payam: Generally people don't get really disorganized unless they're they have some really strong, strong protectors and they're those particular sort of repressing some things that are [00:15:00] very hard to bear with. The conscious mind. So that tends to give me a good sense of what their systems like. And, and even sitting there and giving some hope to these parts that I found.

[00:15:13] Payam: That there is no hope is the healing, and that can actually really take the pressure off to want to making some drastic drastic measures, like ending their lives in the long stage or short term. But, yeah, I, I, I I want to make sure that if [00:15:30] they're, they are suicidal or have had suicidal thoughts, that There is someone who has, has worked with them prior to, and again, I can refer them to them afterwards.

[00:15:39] Payam: So it's, it doesn't weigh on me if something bad were to happen. 

[00:15:43] John: Yeah. Great. Talk, can you talk more about how do you decide who is a good fit for this work and is ready for this work versus when do you turn people away and say, yeah, you're not a good fit or not, not now that timing's right.[00:16:00] 

[00:16:05] Payam: There's certain, certain psychiatric conditions. Bipolar schizophrenia there's certain contraindications and people that are on certain medication that I, I certainly won't risk myself or their well being to try. There are people who have been on medication and either we've swapped.

[00:16:25] Payam: With supervision of their psychiatrist, of course I always [00:16:30] say, you know, you need to have someone who understands and is watching over you as you, as you titrate down and sometimes it's like a two month process, you know, so again, it's done in a very careful way. I just don't say, here's my guidelines, get off your SSRIs 3 weeks prior to medicine, which is basically what everyone in the psychedelic underground says, like, just get off your medicine and sit down.

[00:16:49] John: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:16:50] Payam: Yeah, not a good idea. Yeah, so making sure that they can titrate off and that they're regulated is one of the important pieces off with their [00:17:00] medication. I have someone on my team who's an herbalist and it's also trained in IFS and so she comes on and give some herbal support and nervous system support embodiment and so forth.

[00:17:12] Payam: So again, ensure that they're regulated. If. Someone typeface down and maybe it's like two weeks prior to ceremony or whatever, and something doesn't feel right. I don't move forward. Yeah. Or if I'm moving forward, I move forward very gently and delicately working with lighter doses of [00:17:30] medicine to ensure that they don't get dislodged or, or parts don't jump on and hijack the system once they come out of the medicine.

[00:17:38] Payam: Yeah. So again, making sure that there's bandwidth and there's a nervous system regulation and mental regulation. Yeah. Great. Great. In addition to taking consideration what medications there are on their health condition and also contraindications with psychiatric conditions. 

[00:17:54] John: Okay. Yeah. So then on the other side of the coin, can you explain [00:18:00] who, when, who is kind of an ideal fit for this work or for your program?

[00:18:11] Payam: Yeah. So you reminded me of one thing and as I'm speaking, I, it's kind of a little bit of a warning. And I've had to learn the hard way not tragically, but those who idealize whether they're idealizing the facilitator or the [00:18:30] ceremony, it's a very BPD trait. I have medicines actually that I facilitate before we go into heavier medicines to see if there's a, they, they flip on you, you know, they, they split.

[00:18:40] Payam: That has happened where a therapist referred someone to me and, you know, this is going to be it. This is the, this is the solution. I know. And I, you know, no other therapist was able to help me. I know you can do it. And then the 1st night we sat out and I'll tell you which medicine we work with.

[00:18:57] Payam: I delivered this medicine again. We had [00:19:00] gone over all of the medicines and all the experiences. There is nothing that he wasn't informed about. I told him that he was going to get uncomfortable. I told him that it was going to probably shake and sweat and vomit and all of that. And we work with a very light dose of this initial medicine that I gave him.

[00:19:19] Payam: And then he's like, this feels like, like I'm being drugged. You know, I, I don't, I don't feel like I can trust you that the done. And I said, you know what, I think we need to conclude the ceremony and, and put it to rest [00:19:30] for now. 

[00:19:30] John: Yeah. 

[00:19:31] Payam: I like the, the Cartman. Triangle, you know, so they, they become the victims and they're looking for a perpetrator, whether you're the, you're the perpetrator or the medicine and they split on you.

[00:19:40] Payam: And so these borderline traits can be very tricky to work with. 

[00:19:44] John: Yeah. 

[00:19:45] Payam: So that's 1 thing to, to pay attention to. In terms of the ideal, so long as they're not very extreme in their beliefs of this is, this is the panacea, this is, it's not, I mean, it can be certainly [00:20:00] has helped a lot of people and it does help people.

[00:20:01] Payam: I'm very good at what I do. But I also inform them that look, we're going to open up and go into different states of consciousness and release a lot and so forth, but it's not Prozac and it's not Zoloft. This is actually going to elucidate the wounds. It's going to help you meet the wounds and be with the wounds and the traumas and things that you repress.

[00:20:24] Payam: So that he can actually heal, but that requires some time. And sometimes it requires multiple [00:20:30] ceremonies and whether it's with me and I'm, and I don't certainly put people under pressure. I'm like, you can work with me or whomever else. It's not about me trying to sell something to you, but as I said before, it definitely expedites the process, but sometimes.

[00:20:45] Payam: It, it, it can go both ways. One way, which is they sit down and all of a sudden these repressed sexual traumas and so forth rise up spontaneously and they're like, oh, Jesus Christ, I didn't know it was there. Or, or, I'm sure it's happened with you [00:21:00] as well, but over time. And then, and then we get to the thorn and this and the, or the splinter in the soul.

[00:21:06] Payam: Yeah, I understand. Oh, so all of these behaviors that my body and my mind exhibited were the echoes of these, these repressed traumas that were in the system. Yeah, we have to heal the echoes as well as the trauma imprint that we now see. That's 1 way it can go. 

[00:21:23] John: Yep. 

[00:21:23] Payam: Or there, there are people that, it takes, you know, 5, 6, 10 [00:21:30] ceremonies for them to develop because implicitly they, they, they have this feeling that you're the perpetrator or the medicine because of the trauma or the things that they've repressed.

[00:21:40] Payam: Right? So there's developing relationship on the mat over time and finding which medicine may be suitable for them because their system is so protected. Yeah, either you give them a huge dose and hope for the best, but again, could go into temporarily temporary psychosis or psychotic episode, [00:22:00] which again, may backfire or their system just pushes away and it takes multiple sessions to get to the root of the matter and be like, Here it is.

[00:22:08] Payam: This is it. Now, whether you want to work with this with a therapist or, or working with, with medicines that you can integrate this traumas with MDMA primarily. can be the healing process for you. It expedites things. It's not a 10 year thing. Maybe it's a year or a year and a half process, but it's [00:22:30] not a one time thing generally.

[00:22:31] John: Yeah. Yeah. Great. I realized you might need to answer this in pieces depending on the medicine you're referring to. But I also have a part saying this is a dumb question, but maybe that's why I'm going to ask it, which is like, when you're talking about this work What is the medicine as you define it?

[00:22:51] John: So, for instance in some cases or with things like ketamine, a client was asking me about that recently there was this [00:23:00] sense that like if I go through this ketamine treatment, like that's going to be the medicine. On the other hand, it's like the ketamine helps to soften the system, open the system enough for you to do the work or in other words, these medicines helping us access our innate healing capacity that is already deep within.

[00:23:17] John: So again, you might need to, I'm sure there's caveats around all this, but 

[00:23:22] Payam: this is a really good question. 

[00:23:23] John: Yeah. Just like what, what is 

[00:23:24] Payam: a really good question? Ask me all the dumb questions you have. All right. [00:23:30] Great. Great. John, there is, see, the thing is there are different domains. Of experience, there is the physical, the psychological, as I said, the, the, the biological, the societal, the religious energetic, all of these things that encompass our experience are creating a reality, a lived reality.

[00:23:54] Payam: So all of these factors can come [00:24:00] in to act as medicine or act as wounding agents, depending on what they're doing. There could be again, like, serotonin thing. If they're feeling depleted and depressed, maybe their gut microbiome is not well, or they're not eating well, and a substantial amount of our serotonin is actually in our gut.

[00:24:20] Payam: So there could be a GI. Illness that they have that's influencing in addition to all the trauma and the stuff they have. Mm-Hmm. , you see? It could be, again, it could [00:24:30] be, you know, what does serotonin again? Is it in here or in here? Or maybe it's both places. 

[00:24:34] John: Yeah. 

[00:24:35] Payam: So it could be simply about biological factor.

[00:24:38] Payam: It could be in hormonal factor. It could be toxins in our system, you see? So, depending on the complexity of the case, there could be many, many points where there's vulnerabilities in our system that create this. 

[00:24:58] John: Yeah, 

[00:24:59] Payam: the [00:25:00] inner healing intelligence of the body. Absolutely. It's our bodies developed and stays in ideally homeostasis.

[00:25:08] Payam: When you say this is our natural state. And then Yeah. These trauma imprints or these illnesses start to create disease and disarming in our system. Balance. Mm-Hmm. . I've also seen, depending on which medicine I'm working with, so MDMA sits on serotonin, dopamine. Those are the primary MO ones that.

[00:25:29] Payam: You see [00:25:30] drastic shifts in the behavior of someone who's sitting in medicine. And so we talked about ADHD last time, dopamine comes in, comes to ADHD parts. So again, finding the right balance And supporting the individual, sometimes we do a lot of onboarding and a lot of healing, but there's still something that's missing, like a little bit of serotonin and another case where I have this psychiatrist who actually sat with me in medicine.

[00:25:59] Payam: So [00:26:00] he knows the deal, did quite a substantial amount of work with this person. They felt absolutely amazing. And then after the three week, four week mark, they started to come down a little bit from their state of wellness. And the psychiatrist wrote a prescription for 25 milligrams of Zoloft. And she's the best she's ever been.

[00:26:24] Payam: This person that I worked with her entire life. So it's all these various factors and, and [00:26:30] trying to plug in what healing medicine needs to come at what point to support the person to come back into homeostasis. 

[00:26:38] John: Yeah, I'm going to reference for a second. I think a lot of what people want is to get to the root of their issues, right?

[00:26:47] John: So, for instance as a parallel for, for the last Basically, since the start of this year, I've been dealing with some strange health issues, and Western doctors have had basically no luck in figuring out what it [00:27:00] is. And the only person who's been able to help me is a Chinese medicine doctor, an MD, who then 30 years ago decided this isn't working.

[00:27:09] John: And so he went to China and learned acupuncture, Chinese medicine, herbalism. He's the only one who's been able to help me. He only looks for the root of things, right? In bringing balance back to our organ systems by working with meridians. And you know, that that perspective, that framework is ironically, really rare because a lot [00:27:30] of what we do is just treat the symptoms, right?

[00:27:33] John: Symptom management. Symptom management, right? So it's like your anger. So if a client comes in and they're like, I'm here cause I have anger issues, or they say I need anger management, which is like the term that they Google or whatever. And I get this a lot. And a lot of men with anger issues come to me.

[00:27:47] John: And so. That is in fact the symptom, right? And, and that's kind of what's bringing them here. Like this is, this is what ails me. We are, but we are of course trying to get to the root of it. This movie, I mentioned the last shaman, you know, [00:28:00] when this, this young man goes to the Amazon is kind of seeking answers through working with a shaman there through ayahuasca through these experiences.

[00:28:10] John: He actually, I won't ruin the movie for everyone, but he had some success in getting to the root. Of his disease of his depression of his suicidality. Right? And so in a way, working with the medicine, working with the shaman, just help pull back the veil a bit for him to see what he needed to see.

[00:28:28] John: Right? So, [00:28:30] 

[00:28:30] Payam: yeah, I mean, to your point, the route, the route is the issue. 

[00:28:34] John: Yeah,

[00:28:41] Payam: I have a few friends who are chiropractors and they use this terminology or this principle, which I like quite a bit, which is 1st in 1st out or last and 1st 

[00:28:53] John: out. 

[00:28:54] Payam: So the root or the the surface content of, or the, the echoes. [00:29:00] And so it really entirely, it, it depends on what their structure, their psychic structure can handle.

[00:29:09] John: Yeah. 

[00:29:10] Payam: So if you were, if you're talking about neck injury, neck, imagine something happens to the neck and it's all gone, gone down, all, all the way down to your saum. And the body is guarded and calcified and armored and so forth. So you really have no mobility. So last out and last in first out, so we have to [00:29:30] heal the superficial or most recent trauma to soften and then be able to drop into the root causes of the issues at hand.

[00:29:40] Payam: Because to go into the sacrum again, I'm not a chiropractor, but you know, you would have to really exert some force and that may actually damage because of the muscular response that goes all the way up the structures that underneath the muscles that are trying to guard the sacrum. The, the trauma that's happened at the latest [00:30:00] point.

[00:30:00] Payam: So it really, again, depends on how they can, how much they can handle, which medicines may be appropriate for them and all the entire system around them. And again, trying to go in and, and and also the, again, for the facilitator to sit with this person in medicine and make sure that they feel safe and nothing bad is going to happen to 

[00:30:18] John: them.

[00:30:19] Payam: You see? So There's no one prescription. It's just, it's more of an exploration with curiosity with certain guidelines. 

[00:30:29] John: [00:30:30] Yeah. Just bringing in some IFS again or sprinkling some IFS into the conversation. I want to say that the more I do this work, the more I realize and try to honor the wisdom of our parts.

[00:30:43] John: So some of my clients that come in and have some sort of a physical issue or ailment or chronic GI issues or whatever it is, the more we generate self energy, bring that to our parts. Even if we don't know what parts are [00:31:00] responsible perhaps for the stomach ache or the headaches or the migraine or the tension in my throat.

[00:31:05] John: I find that if we, Generate enough self energy, go inside and literally just ask like who's here or who's who's generating this feeling in my throat, right? Who's tightening my stomach, right? Or who's making me throw up? They will often reveal themselves and come forward and come forward. If you go a step further and ask, tell me the story of how you got here.

[00:31:27] John: Tell me the story of how you started doing this or felt like you needed to [00:31:30] do this to the body. Right. They have a very clear and vivid and compelling story that is ready to be told. Right. And then we can go toward that. And again, We might be on our way to an unburdening if it happens there, but just really inviting and asking parts to, to, to share tends to open up things quite a bit in my experience.

[00:31:51] John: And again, this is my work in a therapy office doing non altered states you know, work. 

[00:31:57] Payam: Yeah. I'm going to invite you to use a different [00:32:00] word for altered state. 

[00:32:01] John: Sure. Yeah. 

[00:32:02] Payam: Because that, that has a. Negative connotation to it. I have a, it's, it's almost like a bias to be in an altered state. That's scary.

[00:32:13] Payam: It's an expanded state. Yeah, I get 

[00:32:16] John: that. That makes sense. 

[00:32:18] Payam: We see different frequencies than we do while they're in the altered state. Now they're just in an expanded state. They see things differently than we do. Yeah, 

[00:32:26] John: it's funny because when I when I said that I second guessed it and I thought [00:32:30] I actually thought a lot of times in doing IFS work, I would consider it an expanded state and there's this softening this opening this, slow kind of going inside this exploring this warmth. You know, years ago, I mean, gosh, 15 years ago when I became a therapist, I was the only one in my hometown doing clinical hypnosis, right? Just offer, you know, helping people into this trance like state where the unconscious can kind of soften or the door to it can open and they're more [00:33:00] ready to access.

[00:33:01] John: Information or insight or suggestion, which is what makes hypnosis hypnosis, you know, a suggestion that we've agreed upon that we're going to offer to their system. But that is. Yeah, an altered state or to your point, an expanded state. And I think there's a trance like element to a lot of IFS work and going inside doing insight work with IFS.

[00:33:21] John: So but yeah, I appreciate the the language 

[00:33:24] Payam: preferably. Yeah. Preferably someone is, is, has, has a bandwidth. [00:33:30] Expansive. Sometimes, you know, I was reading this, this book that Carl Jung wrote and there was an excerpt and I just love paraphrasing. So there's a client of his that came in after 10 years and finally he dropped the bomb on him of, you know, this is what happened to me and asked him, he's like, Why now after 10 years?

[00:33:50] Payam: And he said, well, it took me 10 years to trust you. 

[00:33:53] John: Yeah. 

[00:33:54] Payam: Yeah. So and it really depends on that relationship and that is [00:34:00] forged and that the trust that is Established and then be able to open up and not be armored in your mind and your body and your psyche Yeah, not be armored and to be able to be Open enough and understand what that landscape starts to look like to be able to do the deep surgery that's necessary.

[00:34:20] Payam: And this is very parallel also to doing medicine work is I guess, let me maybe touch on some of the things we talked about about the [00:34:30] and maybe kind of like opening up the stuff as, as you were saying that to mirror what you were saying in terms of the somatic. So. The stereotypical photo that you see, which absolutely gets on my nerves, John of a psychedelic session is what a person on a couch blindfolded and earphones on.

[00:34:50] Payam: They call it a mind fold, which is kind of bizarre to me a blanket and they're just kind of like, laying there and someone's attentively holding their head, you know, and, and, that session was [00:35:00] psychedelics. It's not that. That's, that's not it. And to create that environment to create that implicit understanding of the person who's going to medicine that they're, they have no way to move their flank and they, they're sort of contained is the last thing you want to do in a ceremonial way.

[00:35:18] Payam: Setting. 

[00:35:20] John: Yeah. When 

[00:35:21] Payam: I sit with someone so you're sitting down, folded legs and I'm sitting in front of them at about, depending [00:35:30] on if we're working with medicine, which medicines and where they're at three to four feet feet. So getting permission, understanding their field, opening up their, their hearts and understanding where their field actually ends and developing that relationship being like, okay, my field is going to meet your fields.

[00:35:49] Payam: And this is more shamanic stuff when we go into medicine together with seekers, and maybe we can be in the same field of consciousness together and then let's expand [00:36:00] that field to create a protection field around us. So nothing that doesn't belong in the ceremony space. Can penetrate this field and harm you and in that space, I watch someone, you know, when someone's in shame position, they're like this when they're armored, their body may look a certain way.

[00:36:18] Payam: So I'm, I'm tracking what their body is doing from the very beginning. Their bodies are supported. Some men, their hips are very tight, so they can't really sit sitting down and so forth. But it's very much a a yoga [00:36:30] practice of watching what they're doing. Their chakras or their energy centers of the body are doing what's calcified, what's rigid and so forth.

[00:36:38] Payam: So all of those start to inform me of what their body is doing as soon as we're about to sit with medicine. Again, I've done quite a bit of work with them, so they're, you know, I have a lot of cues of what their body is doing and why their bodies may be doing the things that they're doing. Mm hmm. And as we start to enter into.

[00:36:59] Payam: Opening the [00:37:00] ceremony with prayers and so forth. I started with the smoking tobacco, which, you know, we smoke out of the pipe over here, it does like we smoke out of the pipe here and that tends to calm them as a tobacco medicine with some herbs that calms them. And then we start to consider what the system is open to, you know, and which medicines may be right for them.

[00:37:22] Payam: I work with this Amazonian medicine called hop in and hop a. Okay. Is again, there's different blends. There's different ways of delivering the medicine. There's different [00:37:30] breaths. So it's, it's served out of something, a tool that's called a tepee, which looks like one of my tepees. Didn't know we were going to get into this, but so we've had it ready, but this is a tepee right here.

[00:37:41] Payam: So the medicine is delivered to someone's sinus cavities with this tip and someone blows this medicine that's really used a lot with combo medicine and ayahuasca, but this medicine tends to activate the nervous system. It also tends to purge the system of emotional toxins and physical toxins.

[00:37:58] Payam: Oftentimes people are [00:38:00] vomiting, but that naturally takes the pressure off of these These weights, these burdens that these protectors may have kept inside. And as a facilitator, I'm watching what is the hop in medicine doing? And each hop, a blend goes to a different region of the body and the mind, the psyche and does various things.

[00:38:18] Payam: So I deliver. Various medicines of Hoppe to try to open up the body. So naturally, again, we're peeling back the layer, peeling back, peeling back, peeling back. And [00:38:30] sometimes people have been Hoppe, in Hoppe for three hours, just purging and releasing. They've gone into implicit memory just from Hoppe.

[00:38:36] Payam: They're like, oh shit, I didn't know that was there. Or they're like, oh my god, I forgot that that was there. 

[00:38:41] John: Yeah. 

[00:38:41] Payam: You know, so again, tools that we're using to, to purify the body and the mind to take the weight off of these protectors to unburden them, the toxins on all the emotions that they've taken.

[00:38:54] Payam: That's one medicine that I work with. And that's also a good litmus test to see what their [00:39:00] protective parts are doing. And if they freak out and they start to you, you, you, you're, you know, you're doing this to me and I'm like, okay, that's it. This topic can be a very, very difficult experience. You'll see.

[00:39:11] Payam: That's a very, very difficult experience for most. Then I work with Sananga. Again the, the shamans and Amazon, they call it panima, like negative, dark, dark energy. So Sananga is made from a root and it's a liquid that you drop into the eyes. And it clarifies vision [00:39:30] is very, very beautiful medicine to heal the eyes.

[00:39:32] Payam: But imagine the hottest Tabasco you've ever had in your life and the Tabasco being in your eyes. So I do breath work and I put the body in a particular position, namely Shavasana and death corpse in yoga. And I'm watching the body and watching the breath. And we do a breath work. To open the body up for this medicine.

[00:39:52] Payam: And then once the, they opened their eyelids, the medicine goes in and shocks the system again [00:40:00] releases a lot of these things that these protector parts may have had just to give them a little pressure release. And then again, I'm watching the body and seeing where the trauma stores, maybe, or the constrictions and so forth again, peeling back the layers.

[00:40:13] Payam: Right. And then we just said, okay, Well, what do we, what do you think we should work with? You know, we discussed MDMA or psilocybin or 5 MeO DMT ketamine or CAPE, which I mix so ketamine and HAPE and I serve that medicine, which tends to be really [00:40:30] beautiful. They talk to each other a lot. And so then we go into, okay, based on what showed up, I think you need X amount of grams or milligrams of this medicine.

[00:40:38] Payam: And let's just go and see what happens or what's happening and start to peel back these protectors that have gone to sleep and become so calcified that they forgot that they were there. And then slowly unburdening and, and again, this medicines are unburdening in medicine, so they can, can be used while they're in the primary medicine namely soul [00:41:00] seven and MDMA to, again, release, release a lot of these traumas that have been stored in the body.

[00:41:06] Payam: There's other elements like fire. I use a lot of fire elements, so hoppings and ongoing fire elements. There is moxibustion that I use, so that's a good way to break up energy and release energy. There's a lot of things that we burn in ceremony that tend to release and purify. There's a lot of different oils that have certain temperatures or qualities to them, you know, earth, air, fire so [00:41:30] forth, water.

[00:41:30] Payam: So we use these. Medicines in conjunction with the primary medicine to unburden and unload and release wherever these energy traps are take a little bit of pressure. And then finally, for the self to be able to see what these protectors have been holding onto, and then unburden and then see what's actually underneath the protectors and try to get into working with the exiles while the protectors are chilled out, sitting to the side, I was listening to Richard Schwartz talk.

[00:41:59] Payam: Just [00:42:00] before we spoke and, you know, he said, you know, these medicines make the protectors go away. I don't disagree with them. Again, depending on what, what dosage of medicine and which medicines being worked with, they don't make the protectors go away unless you're working with a massive amount, which, which gets us into this other piece, which really dissociative parts.

[00:42:21] John: Yeah, 

[00:42:22] Payam: that, that turn up structural dissociation and so forth that just take someone out because it's too overwhelming and these dissociators are [00:42:30] like, nah, we're not going to allow this medicine to do any work and you'd be surprised sometimes what I've offered to people and they're like, well, it's not working.

[00:42:39] Payam: I said, well, what I just gave you should put an elephant elephant into the hospital and they're just sitting there like, yeah. And, and that's what's, what's happening. So again, the dissociators that are coming in interfering with the medicine, we have to honor the dissociators and see how they're operating.

[00:42:57] Payam: And when they jump on and developing a relationship [00:43:00] and establishing some contract with them to be like, okay, why don't you guys step to the side? If you feel like things are getting overwhelming. Jump in, that's one thing that I offer them, but then I also offer the seeker. I'm like, listen, listen, you notice how these dissociators are operating.

[00:43:15] Payam: So before they start to jump back on, because they're activated, just open your eye, come back to the room, have a look at me and see the safety around and go back inside and reassure the dissociators that they need to need not to operate because you're close to the [00:43:30] exile and that you need to do the work.

[00:43:32] Payam: So there's all these elements that are really never ever discussed in psychedelic trainings and so forth because some medicines are inherently dissociative like ketamine is a dissociator. Ketamine and MDMA is a really fascinating thing because ketamine comes in and really like basically puts everyone to sleep, but MDMA comes and actually gives them some juice and actually brings them back on.

[00:43:55] Payam: So they feel motherly energy, right? They have a little bit of. Life [00:44:00] energy to them. They can relax and watch the self be present while the work is being done. So that's why I combine different medicines depending on the psychic structure of the body, what presents itself to get a person to what they need to get to.

[00:44:13] John: Yeah, wonderful. This question might be hard to answer on a podcast, but I have to ask it, which is, Building off of what you just said, in broad strokes, can you explain a little bit more about how you decide or help the seeker [00:44:30] decide which medicine is right for them, or even which one is right as a starting point for like their first session?

[00:44:38] Payam: It's a very broad question. There's a lot of irresponsible facilitators who don't know what they're doing, and they're like, Oh, the medicine will take care of it. And that's just complete and utter bullshit and bypass. I am outspoken as much as I'm outspoken about. My fears around therapists getting their hands on these medicines.

[00:44:57] Payam: I'm also very outspoken about [00:45:00] facilitators. Here you go. 

[00:45:02] John: And in that regard, therapists, we have a lot more to lose because we report to a board, right? And we spent seven years in higher education and 4, 000 hours getting licensed by a board that if, if we screw up, right, you might lose your license or lose your career as we know it.

[00:45:18] John: And, So when I had mentioned off air without getting into it too much, I had a client who, in my opinion, kind of went rogue and went and sought out ayahuasca on their own. And [00:45:30] it was a very bad experience. It was very much the preparation wasn't there. The screening wasn't there. The integration wasn't there.

[00:45:36] John: So I was just horrified at the mess that I had to help clean up after this experience. So. On one hand I, I share a lot of excitement and in the promise of this work and a part of why I like you is because of your, your humility, your thoroughness that you bring a team approach to this work. You do not take it lightly.

[00:45:58] John: You're not here just to make a buck, which [00:46:00] I see a lot of that happening now, and it's horrifying. Realizing even how ancient some of this work is in these protocols in this medicine is and then people just like making an instagram ad for it and doing it in the Santa Cruz mountains, you know, this weekend, if you want to sign up, if you can afford the, you know, 2500 or whatever.

[00:46:18] John: So I'm, I'm horrified by that. And it's even more reason to like have these conversations. And I just want for, for therapy consumers listening right now and people navigating their own trauma to hear, [00:46:30] going back to my question of like, how do you help folks pick which medicine to use or to go with first?

[00:46:37] John: I don't want you to feel like you have to shortcut that answer because then listeners might shortcut that and go again. He's talked about MDMA a lot today, so I should probably try that. So I just putting that caveat in there, that warning, cause I know you, you, you have the same. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate this question that a lot.

[00:46:53] Payam: Mm-Hmm. John, what we talked about, and I think this is one of those important pieces, there are contra [00:47:00] contraindications with every, every medicine. Yeah. Whether there's a physical contraindication or a psych psychological contraindication. There's no one medicine that doesn't have an a contraindication.

[00:47:11] Payam: Having acknowledged that there's certain medicines that. Do less harm or don't have as much of a, an impact as there are other medicines. 

[00:47:22] John: Yeah, 

[00:47:23] Payam: ketamine and MDMA are probably the most easy going medicines you can work with. Five M [00:47:30] E O D M T. I'm a boga. I'm Oscar. Those medicines are serious. 

[00:47:36] John: Yeah, 

[00:47:37] Payam: I don't work with Iowa spots, not my medicine.

[00:47:40] Payam: I believe that you need to be in training for a minimum of 10 years to facilitate this medicine a minimum. 

[00:47:46] John: Yeah. 

[00:47:47] Payam: And you're working with a tribe and you really understand the nature of this medicine where I am in Holland. People are pouring medicine like it's Coca Cola. Whether they're pouring psilocybin [00:48:00] or they're pouring ayahuasca it's, they take it very lightly and, and, and it's an individual and their psyche and their life and you need to be very, very careful about what you're doing and you have to be very humble.

[00:48:14] Payam: You're like, I'm not sure if I should facilitate this medicine for you. 

[00:48:17] John: Yeah, 

[00:48:18] Payam: that's one piece. The other piece that is really critical is before embarking on a journey, again, depending on what's being worked with there's a lot of preparation, the physical [00:48:30] preparation, fasting, changing your diet. And this is more geared towards ayahuasca.

[00:48:33] Payam: Get the body ready to actually be able to take the, take the medicine and be with the medicine because the medicine is going to purge you of a lot of these psychic, physical, emotional impurities to actually be able to sit with the wisdom of the medicine. So people go on diet tests for, you know, two, three weeks before they sit with ayahuasca, for instance, responsibly.

[00:48:53] Payam: Mm hmm. So there has to be a lot of preparation. You have to make sure that it's not a last ditch [00:49:00] and desperate effort to get right. And again, going back to people who are trying to make a buck. People who are in vulnerability, whether they're in physical pain, emotional pain or whatever, we'll do anything to get rid of it.

[00:49:13] Payam: There are very, very many unscrupulous practitioners are like, okay, cool. Yeah, I'll serve you. And they may want to mean well, but I think there is something that's informing them that's creating a hierarchy of power of, of a person that's [00:49:30] vulnerable and it's like, look, help me. And yes, I help people, but 1 of the things that I say, especially chronic pain patients, not patients of mine, but patients are getting hurt.

[00:49:39] Payam: I'm like, I don't want you to make decisions hastily because you're vulnerable and this is, this is your last ditch effort. We have to do this in a way that honors your system and honors everything as the safe parts. And the right people there to support you. 

[00:49:56] John: Yeah. 

[00:49:57] Payam: Yeah, that's [00:50:00] a little bit of a broad answer.

[00:50:02] Payam: But more importantly, like what, what their nervous system is like and how much their nervous system can handle, which medicines, because certain medicines, again, like Senaga and Hoppe triggered the nervous system the sympathetic nervous system. And, you know, if people are on severe amounts of pain, That may not be the right medicine to facilitate.

[00:50:21] Payam: Sometimes I do just because I want to see what's going on in their system. MDMA ketamine again, if people are in a really dissociate a [00:50:30] lot, ketamine would not be the medicine for them and they have to come into self. So MDMA would be probably a good and very safe medicine to work with. Psilocybin is a spirit in itself, just like ayahuasca and to be able to ensure that the psyche can handle things that are.

[00:50:47] Payam: Extraordinary out of the common consensus reality and be able to deal with the idea that there's an entity that's going to come inside of you and do surgery on your body and your mind, and you're going to [00:51:00] have to be there and witness and let go, which brings me to this other piece of, like, Surrender.

[00:51:07] Payam: Like you have to surrender to the medicine. Yeah, you do, but if you've been super traumatized, your parts are not, you know, you can think cognitively. Yeah, I'll surrender, but your parts don't give a shit. Yeah, what I'm saying? Absolutely. There can be a war between the medicine that's trying to break through the, through these protectors, the protectors getting shaken up and clinging for dear life.

[00:51:28] John: Yeah. 

[00:51:29] Payam: And again, [00:51:30] that creates a disaster of an experience for someone who, who goes into a very bad trip because the protectors are like, no, and it's incumbent on the facilitator to know what that can be like, and to really, again, get everyone on board and explain everything and communicate. Get cons consensus agreements from the parts that are conscious.

[00:51:54] Payam: Remember protectors can also be unconscious and they're asleep because they haven't had to [00:52:00] work. And getting enough critical mass of protectors would be like, okay, we can go into this and then titrating titrating them in again to trust the medicine, not to just take a. Bulldozer and Rick the entire house and hope for the best.

[00:52:17] John: Yeah. Great. You alluded to one of my other questions, which was going to be, and I know there's a million caveats to this, or specifics that would be based on the [00:52:30] preparation you've done with the client, your relationship with them, the type of medicine you're using. But when things do go wrong, someone's having a quote bad trip.

[00:52:37] John: Generally what do you do and how do you help them?

[00:52:44] Payam: This sounds very arrogant of me, but it's true. I haven't had someone that has had a bad trip. 

[00:52:51] John: Yeah, I don't, I don't find that as arrogant. I just, I would guess that the, a big reason is because [00:53:00] again, your diligence, your respect for these medicines you're using, the preparation, going slow being transparent with the, the client, the seeker about what this could be like Because I think sometimes when it does go wrong, there's, there are big surprises.

[00:53:16] John: One, we could bypass protectors and have a host of problems because of that. It can also just be traumatizing because the dose is too high. Things go wrong. The client is losing touch with reality and there's no one in the [00:53:30] room that they have a solid relationship with to help them ride that wave.

[00:53:34] Payam: Yeah. And one of the talks was talking about. There's no such thing as the, as a bad trip. It's just the things that you've repressed that are surfacing for you to see. The mind is fascinating and how powerful it is in creating stories and narratives around visions and experiences that you may have had to divert away [00:54:00] from the truth, even though that it's looking straight in your eyes or taking you through the, the, Implicit memory of being abused and so forth.

[00:54:10] Payam: There's times that people have worked with ayahuasca, for instance and the medicine is showing them visions and so forth. But again, there's resistance and pushing away. And then they come and see me and then we sit with MDMA. Or MDMA and psilocybin, and they're able to at least take my guidance and, and [00:54:30] work with these protectors and soften to be like, okay, that's the shit that happened to me.

[00:54:34] Payam: Yeah. 

[00:54:35] John: Yeah. 

[00:54:35] Payam: And then again, depending on where we are in the process, maybe I'm burdened and do retrieval and all that in the medicine, or maybe it takes a few rounds.

[00:54:47] Payam: Gradual and slow as best as possible. Like five MEO DMT is there's no negotiating with it. And the experience in of itself can be traumatizing because it's, it's, there's no human worse six to in this [00:55:00] medicine. So the experience can be traumatizing. The trauma releasing because it's been pushed away can be traumatizing.

[00:55:06] Payam: The exon is freaking out. Like it's disaster zone. So then working gently with permission. As much as possible, because these these experiences again are rather different than the therapeutic office or the therapeutic relationship and the therapeutic context, because if something big happens, they can, you know, you can.

[00:55:26] Payam: Pump the brakes or, you know, try to bring them back and let's [00:55:30] let things settle and know that you're getting close to an exile, but it's too much just right now. And we'll just, yeah. Park it earmark it and then try to go to it when the time is right. 

[00:55:41] John: That's right. The, the word control comes to mind.

[00:55:44] John: It's a word that comes up. A lot in the therapy room, in my experience, especially being a trauma therapist, a primary quality of experiencing something traumatic is loss of control or loss of agency. Right? They've also [00:56:00] done they've done research on well, I'll give you an example in my life. For years, I was an EMT.

[00:56:07] John: And so you know, rushing into horrific situations and seeing car crashes and deaths and suicides and all these horrific things out of the thousands of calls I went on there was really only one or two that were traumatic. And the one that was really traumatic was. When some things went wrong operationally and enough people didn't show [00:56:30] up to help me.

[00:56:31] John: And I didn't have the equipment I needed to help the person. Right. And that loss of agency really messed me up for a while. I mean, I can, I can even feel it right now. It's still in me. Despite the work I've done on it, the EMDR, the IFS, all sorts of stuff. And so there's a lot to be said about that in terms of losing control, right.

[00:56:51] John: Losing control, losing agency, and I think. Concerns that some folks would have about entering this world of plant medicine is, is is, yeah, feeling [00:57:00] out of control, right? And on one hand, it's like, do you have to surrender? Yes. And there's a lot more that goes into it. And having a guide such as yourself can help the whole thing stay, stay as safe as possible.

[00:57:13] Payam: So to your point, depending on as facilitators, I know, and I'm speaking to whoever's listening, like, We really have to look at an individual. I'm looking at John, but I'm maybe looking at John. It was 23 when he was a paramedic. [00:57:30] You know, and having the utmost compassion and be like, this guy's dying on my hands and I don't have the right tools and there's nothing I can fucking do to save this guy.

[00:57:39] John: Yeah. 

[00:57:39] Payam: And I feel absolutely powerful, powerless and there's, that's it. This guy's expiring in my hands and just the, the, the, the dread and the horror and the loss of, Life and loss of the ability to save someone, even though you are well equipped to do that is completely devastating to a human being, [00:58:00] whether it's you as an EMT or a child that's been molested by their entire family or whomever, it's just loss of control, loss of agency, loss of sovereignty.

[00:58:12] Payam: And I think this is this piece of that, that contraction or the armoring. 

[00:58:17] John: Yeah. 

[00:58:18] Payam: That's what the psyche does in the body. That's it. Let's say never fucking again. 

[00:58:23] John: Yeah. And I'll 

[00:58:24] Payam: do whatever it takes to never expose myself to these horrors [00:58:30] that I experienced. And again, whether it's conscious or repressed, 

[00:58:34] John: right.

[00:58:35] Payam: So this is where all this informed consent piece comes in and be like, okay, well, and a good litmus test and their name. Softens and then creates a secure attachment with self and the parts with the self and self of the parts and secure attachment in the ceremonial space. And if they can't handle that, then a facilitator may want to pause there and be like, okay, [00:59:00] what's happening and why are they getting dysregulated in MDMA?

[00:59:04] Payam: And is this even a safe medicine for them to work with because it's softening the protectors too much, but then we have this, this cash 22, which is this person may be in dire straits and be like, I want to fucking kill myself. And this was my only hope. Well, then again, maybe it's a ketamine solution because ketamine completely takes them offline, [00:59:30] even though people have a ketamine.

[00:59:34] John: You know, if I was working with that, that person again, whether it's in these expansive States or just in my therapy office, ultimately what we want to try to get to is what makes life so unbearable, right? Or what if you continued on feeling the way you're feeling forever? What would be so unbearable about that?

[00:59:55] John: And really, cause they're already touching into their hopelessness, right? Of I [01:00:00] can not, or I will not continue living this way forever. Right. And then you have You know, a firefighter part that comes in and says, well, I have a really good idea for how to end the suffering, right, which is to kill yourself and on its own, right?

[01:00:13] John: That's an extremely effective way of ending the pain, right? That makes a lot of sense, right? Because this part cannot see how things could possibly ever get better, right? Or how it could ever be safe to go toward this wounded exile, you know, this four year old locked in the basement who was [01:00:30] molested.

[01:00:31] John: And so if we're not going to go help that one in the basement, like I know a way out, right? I know a way to end suffering. Hell, it makes sense. Right. I forget where I was going with that, but you can, 

[01:00:42] Payam: Let's see where you're trying to read your mind. Yeah, I think that it's, it's, it's this piece you were touching on as this hopelessness and being hopeless, but being also afraid to get near.

[01:00:54] Payam: And I think maybe that's what you were trying to get, get to is feeling like there is no other solution, but [01:01:00] the, the, the only solution is taking a medicine to try to go heal this, this hopelessness. Exile. And so it's that double bind, right? Yes. The double bind that I'm throwing in from him. Double bind suck.

[01:01:16] Payam: They're paradoxes. And

[01:01:18] Payam: I was on a panel with a therapist who, Who was talking and there's someone who asked the question and she really did not answer it and I'll get to [01:01:30] what, to your question here. And I answered and, and, and my answer came from a non dual experience. And so the answer came from a non dual reality and she's like, well, I don't agree with that.

[01:01:42] Payam: And I said, well, you're looking at it through a non dual self object. Mind and trying to make sense of what I'm saying, that's coming from having a non dual experience and being in these expanded states of consciousness where I am nothing and informing the audience that the person was asking this [01:02:00] question about my experience, my wisdom.

[01:02:03] Payam: Now, this is why I think maybe ketamine is probably the, the solution for some people that may be at dire straits and in this double bind. Cause they go, they go offline. So it's a default mode, DMN reset, and it also happens with five MEO DMT, but that can be very, very challenging. It can happen with a massive dose of [01:02:30] psilocybin, but again, it's taken then instead of can just go bye bye and then see you in an hour later, maybe the solution for people that are there in this double bind, or, you know, again, with informed consent, take a massive dose and literally just, you know, Go bye bye.

[01:02:46] Payam: But in the going to the non dual state with psilocybin, but again, if protectors are in place and I've seen this happen, they vomit the medicine out or they can inhale the medicine because protectors are like, ain't going to happen [01:03:00] where, you know, you go into the clinical setting and you're, you know, you had your vitals monitored, someone present, they gave you IV or IM and you go bye bye.

[01:03:13] Payam: Basically we go unconscious and hopefully the DMN resets and then you come back feeling better. So that's the one solution or a massive dose of psilocybin should you be able to ingest the medicine and protectors that don't interfere with that or inhaling 5 MEODMT again. Yeah, [01:03:30] depending on which 5 MEODMT, which mode of delivery, there's different ways of delivering the medicine as well, but those can be very, very difficult.

[01:03:42] John: Yeah, going back for a second and I'm still trying to retrace my thoughts about what my point was there's, I guess there has to be a readiness and again, a capacity of a sufficient degree of self energy to do this work, to go toward the [01:04:00] wounded parts, or let's say in the case of the suicidal person.

[01:04:04] John: The, the, the exile that holds the hopelessness, right? They don't have a job like a protector. Their role is just holding the pain, holding the hopelessness, holding the I'm worthless, right? And maybe that is because they were molested when they were for whatever it is. And so it's like at some point. We have to go there at some point.

[01:04:26] John: We have to go and be with that part here. That part story or else [01:04:30] you will have these protectors that either just drive us into perfectionism or numbing out or suicidality, whatever it is. Because those parts don't yet trust that itself can actually lead The, the system and can hear this, this wounded one.

[01:04:47] Payam: So there's the caveat though, John, I don't know. I'm really curious about, about you and hopefully this will inform some facilitators that again, running into the protectors that are so [01:05:00] strong, they repress things, they repress things until the medicine comes in there. And it's like, 

[01:05:04] John: yeah, 

[01:05:05] Payam: here we, here we show you actually what, what it is.

[01:05:08] Payam: Do you run into many people that have repressed memories that over time? All the time. 

[01:05:13] John: Yeah. And I find that they come out. I actually find that the protectors sure they repress them. I think repressed has a negative connotation, right? Like it's a bad thing. It is, of course, a very protective thing to do.

[01:05:27] John: Just like dissociating is a very [01:05:30] beautiful, protective measure that is that is needed. At times, I will also say, And in bringing it back to your work, which is on one hand, if when protectors judge the medicine as safe, but also your work, I think, is very relational. And I think people forget this or people bypass this.

[01:05:49] John: And so I think So, for instance, I help teach IFS at Stepping Stones this program, and every week I'm facilitating these dyads with people, some have done a lot of IFS, some [01:06:00] have never done it, and the degree to which a session opens up or a system opens up varies widely. Most of the time, these people have never met each other before, and sometimes they just start off by working with a protector or there's this perfectionistic part.

[01:06:14] John: Can you get to know it a little bit? And that's kind of what we do, right? That's where the session goes. On the other hand, you sit down with someone. Their system opens entirely in four minutes into the session. There's an exile on the table, or there's a little girl who's hurt, and she's Wounded and she's sitting in the corner [01:06:30] and just crying helpless.

[01:06:31] John: Can you go toward her? I, I judge that is those protectors have deemed you as safe, right? Even if someone is new to IFS, they have deemed you the, the, the IFS therapist or the person learning IFS as safe. Even if you don't know what to do, you're not sure about the next step or the model, or they're like, where am I at in the protocol?

[01:06:52] John: Their system that is inherently. Knows what to do and is self protected by nature. Has deemed you as safe to enter and at [01:07:00] least be around that little girl or be near her, be in the room while we get to know her. And so I always point that out when I'm, you know, helping teach these classes, because it's really important that people understand why that happened, right?

[01:07:12] John: Even if they didn't know what to do that that that happened for a very good reason. Those protectors are checking you out, right? Yeah. Through the client's eyes, whether you know it or not, whether you've invited that or not, of course, it's a good idea to invite it. Invite your protectors to check me out and decide is, is I am a safe dude or not, right?

[01:07:28] John: Like let's, [01:07:30] let's be surprised. 

[01:07:31] Payam: You'd be surprised. Like I was in this training not too long ago. And yeah, a lot of IFS therapists and I just, you know, I, I shut my mouth and I was just really quiet and listening and not from a critical perspective, but just really being present and from a facilitator's perspective, just watching the room and who's coming in with what and what's happening and so forth.

[01:07:57] John: Yeah, 

[01:07:58] Payam: and at one point it was like [01:08:00] the 4th day or so, one of these participants, express interest in sitting with hopping and I have this very, very mild and very gentle one. It's hard opening and I offered her the medicine or, you know, I talked with her about it and it was a whole process. And then I served her and she's like, Oh, you're nice.

[01:08:20] Payam: I'm like, yeah, and you smile. I'm like, yeah. And her protectors, because of the traumas there had deemed me as unsafe because [01:08:30] just because I was quiet and I. Didn't present myself, you know, and then when she's had it with me, she's like, Oh, yeah, actually nice. Yeah, 

[01:08:40] John: yeah, 

[01:08:40] Payam: but that relationship, John is incredibly important.

[01:08:44] John: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:08:45] Payam: And my work is not for everyone. My work is that's right. 

[01:08:49] John: Yeah, 

[01:08:50] Payam: and I don't take it personally. It's totally fine. I'm, you know, I'm very sharp with the way I work. I'm very decisive and stuff, but that's again with, with all this [01:09:00] permission and people understand the way that, that I work, you know, I just don't take a razor blade and go straight in depending on what our relationship is, what the comfort level is and where they want to go and that relationship is critical.

[01:09:13] John: And I just want to say for people listening

[01:09:16] John: people don't necessarily, they don't really know what good help looks like or what say sometimes what, who a safe person is. And again, some of this is a by product of being traumatized or abused. Your compass is a little off, [01:09:30] right? It's confusing, right? Are you safe or are you not? On the other hand, This piece around again, humility and again, talking about you is like the fact that you don't have ego about it, about this working or not working or doing this.

[01:09:45] John: This type of medicine is the way, right? Or you're working with me. Is extremely important. So whether someone is seeking out working with someone like Payam or who is Just looking for a therapist. Try to gauge that. Try to gauge do they have ego or [01:10:00] do they have humility, right? Are they really sitting here with an open hand saying, this is what I offer.

[01:10:03] John: This is what I do. If you feel safe with me, if you feel interested in working with me, let's feel it out. There's no pressure. You're honoring their system and actually encouraging them as an intervention to trust your gut, right? If something is telling you like, ah, maybe not right now, or maybe they've done three preparation sessions with you and they're going, something is telling me not, not right now, pump the brakes, listen to that, pump the brakes, or clients being resistant, put, you need to push [01:10:30] through that, right?

[01:10:30] John: That's just anxiety. We do a lot of that too, unintentionally, right. Or even you know, the roots of my entire industry and. Psychology being rooted in a lot of 40 and ideas is like clients being resistant, push through that, right? That's the client being a bad client. And it's a very dangerous perspective, especially in this type of work.

[01:10:50] John: So, 

[01:10:51] Payam: yeah, I mean, again, as a, just to add to what you're saying, there is, I always say to people, [01:11:00] I'm like, we may have done all of this work. You may have flown across the country. We're sitting on the mat, we say our prayers, the medicine's ready. And if you don't feel it's right, and I'm about to serve you the medicine, push it away.

[01:11:13] Payam: And that's okay. I'm not going to get upset about it. It's totally fine. That's how I work. Right. 

[01:11:20] John: Yeah. 

[01:11:21] Payam: That's not, today's not the right day. Maybe we try tomorrow. Maybe we need to have more conversation. Maybe we, maybe this didn't feel safe for you in [01:11:30] whichever way. Let's let's bring it to the surface.

[01:11:33] Payam: Let's talk about it. Like let's make sure that it's just right for you. The other thing I wanted to say, which I may or may not have said. With the, with the very few exceptions, I do not facilitate without a third party presence as a safety measure. You know, I have things recorded. To ensure, well, I cover my ass.

[01:11:56] Payam: That's the first thing is I don't want anything leveraged against [01:12:00] me because people have this experiences and they project things on you. People's sexuality comes up that they project on you. A lot of things happen in medicine. So I want to make sure that there's a third party present, especially with a lot of sexual trauma.

[01:12:12] Payam: Of course, we're going into vulnerable spaces. We're opening up and so forth. And the ceremonial space is, is understood how 1 directs themselves, their body, where they sit, how they behave, how they breathe. All of these things are very, very critical for me. [01:12:30] Make that expressively understood by the third party who's sitting in and assisting or being present.

[01:12:40] Payam: Their only job in my ceremony is to assist someone, go to the bathroom and then come out of the bathroom. And that's all they do. And just again, to be able to bear witness. So all of these things are in place again, to ensure safety. And then for the person there to, if they need something, if there's something that is uniquely necessary for a [01:13:00] woman to need support with.

[01:13:02] Payam: Yeah, there's a woman present come on in and do whatever needs to happen. So long as it's safe and it's within my guidelines, you see what I'm saying? So I put those things in place and I had to hear to them very strongly to again, ensure that the safety of the seeker is honored. But yeah, just, just again, to reiterate that safety needs to be established, 

[01:13:22] Payam: Establish with the right medicine, the right time and so forth so that they can go in and do the work without the [01:13:30] resistance and you don't push through the resistance.

[01:13:31] Payam: Unless they say whatever it takes, take me through. Yeah, 

[01:13:35] John: yeah, 

[01:13:35] Payam: and I still explain to them. Okay, we will go take this medicine. We'll take extra. Well, we may need this or that. Do you agree, make it difficult, you know, and that's where the duty of the facilitator comes in to really be able to gauge what's happening in their system and deliver, deliver the medicine and the way that the body can take the mind can take and take it safely.

[01:13:59] Payam: That's, that's one [01:14:00] piece. And then another piece, which I've seen, and it nauseates me. Is a lot of people that are using their sexuality and their looks and their narcissism essentially to gather an audience and draw certain people to them. 

[01:14:15] John: Yeah. 

[01:14:16] Payam: Happens with female facilitators that happens with male facilitators.

[01:14:20] Payam: So there's, there's a lot of narcissism and BPD as people were standing in as facilitators and even as therapists. And again, listening to your [01:14:30] intuition, me like. Why am I gravitated towards this person? It's because I'm because there's a, an attraction. There's something that I need to fill through them as individuals.

[01:14:41] Payam: And those things can create uneven power differentials in the ceremony and can be very dangerous. 

[01:14:49] John: Yeah, yeah. If something feels compulsive. And this, I do a lot of this work with my clients whether it's like saying yes to a job offer or not, you [01:15:00] know, something is something like that, or like working with a provider if it feels compulsive, slow down and pump the brakes.

[01:15:07] John: And a lot of times people don't know what that feels like until we. I really helped them slow it down. And again, semantically, even thinking about, do you know what a yes feels like in your body? Right? Someone offers you something or even says, Hey, do you want to get do you want to grab coffee sometime?

[01:15:23] John: Or do you want to grab coffee tomorrow? Right? It's like, what does a yes feel like in my body? What does a no feel like? And really going slow with [01:15:30] that. Cause in fact, People can learn to trust themselves again, but as a result of trauma, that trust can be diminished. It can be confusing. It can misfire.

[01:15:41] John: And so I really, We really have to go slow with all of that. But yeah, it's like if something seems too good to be true, it probably is. If someone has a ton of ego about them and this, this allure of this big personality and you're kind of infatuated by that and kind of lost in that, compelled by that then maybe, maybe slow down and [01:16:00] just get curious about what's going on, right?

[01:16:02] John: What would it be like to say no? Or in fact, if you say no to the person. And they get pissed and have a reaction and try to talk you back into working with them. It's like run, you know, which I've seen happen as well. So yeah, 

[01:16:14] Payam: just get them, let the money burn and run away. Cause again, that's, that's something else happening.

[01:16:20] John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, we, we are, we're already at the longest episode of all time, which is, it's not a competition, but if it was, then you won

[01:16:29] Payam: Thanks to your [01:16:30] stupid questions. 

[01:16:33] John: If I didn't have clients to get ready for, I would just say, let's see. Keep going, make it a four hour episode. I would grab more coffee, but but we gotta, we gotta somehow wrap this up or at least things must come to 

[01:16:44] Payam: an end. 

[01:16:45] John: Yeah. Or at least a pause. I have a feeling this won't be the last time I, I have you back whenever I can get you here.

[01:16:51] John: So Yeah, I don't know any, any way you want to kind of lead us out or wrap this up or help just kind of conclude [01:17:00] these conversations for now. 

[01:17:02] Payam: As a, as a practice, I oftentimes listen to myself and talks to, to learn what mistakes I've made. And what strengths I have and what improvements I can make.

[01:17:16] Payam: So I listened to the last session, the last talk we did, and I realized that there's many layers of what I'm saying, depending on your understanding. Yeah, and your [01:17:30] psycho education and so forth. So I may piss people off and they may get triggered and not going to turn it off. But if this stuff starts to speak to you listen to it and listen to it for different layers and understand.

[01:17:43] Payam: There's many things that I'm saying, but there's a lot of depth to what I may be saying at every moment. And again, I, I just wanted to thank you, John for, for having me on. It's a great pleasure and honor to be speaking with you. I think that again, [01:18:00] to, to sum it up for now, I, this is really beautiful technology.

[01:18:03] Payam: This is ancient technology. It's not the technology that our technology are. Modern technology can quantify and qualify but it's still very, very powerful and can have deep healing capacities, but the medicine needs to be carried respectfully by the facilitator and it needs to be consumed and taken respectfully by the seeker.

[01:18:24] Payam: And I think we touched on many different facets of this concept. [01:18:30] And I'd certainly hope that people consult with their therapists. Consult with our facilitators and make informed decisions that are not hasty, but are that are, that are, that are informed and that I feel right for their system and I wish everyone their healing.

[01:18:46] John: There you go. And thank you again for doing this. And yeah, for folks interested we'll put the links to PIME's work and website in the description. It's really easy. It's PIME. com, which is Yeah, [01:19:00] very, very, very easy to remember. And we'll put links to everything in the description. So man, thank you again for, for being here and until next time.

[01:19:07] Payam: It's a great honor, John. Thank you. 

[01:19:09] John: Thanks again. Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, at @JohnClarkeTherapy, and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next [01:19:30] time.

Download my Free IFS Meditation:
https://www.johnclarketherapy.com/free

Connect with me:

https://www.instagram.com/johnclarketherapy/

https://www.tiktok.com/@johnclarketherapy

https://www.youtube.com/@JohnClarkeTherapy