John Clarke is Interviewed by Mannah of Therapeutic Astrology Podcast (Part 3) | Going Inside x TAP

Written By John Clarke

John Clarke is Interviewed by Mannah of Therapeutic Astrology Podcast (Part 3) | Going Inside x TAP

In this special crossover episode of Going Inside and the Therapeutic Astrology Podcast, I’m interviewed by Mannah once again to explore the nature of anxiety through an Internal Family Systems (IFS) lens. We discuss how anxiety operates within the system, its connection to deeper fears, and how working with parts can help navigate uncertainty and fear. Together, we unpack the downward arrow technique, the role of protectors in managing anxiety, and the power of self-led healing in transforming our relationship with fear.

  1. Anxiety often masks a deeper fear of abandonment. 

  2. Healing isn’t about eliminating fear but learning to hold it.

  3. Our protectors work hard to keep us safe, but self-leadership offers another way.

Learn more about Mannah at: 

https://www.therapeuticastrologer.com/

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Interview Transcript:

[00:00:00] John: If you go back to that downward arrow technique with this part that fears you're broken, and you go, what would that mean if you're broken? That no one can help me, and what would that mean? That I'm stuck this way forever, and what would that mean? That everyone in my life leaves me when they find out how messed up I actually am, right?

[00:00:15] John: And how dirty and unclean I actually am. And then what would that mean? Then they would leave me and I would end up completely alone. Nine times outta 10. I find that's the fear, right? Our aloneness ending up completely alone.

[00:00:33] John: If you're a therapist, I want to help you deepen your client work, help them get better results without burning yourself out. You can do all this by learning to harness the power of IFS. So I want to tell you, we've got a free. IFS resource library that you can download now. This is full of resources like my quick start guide to IFS, the full IFS protocol, a bunch of demos of me doing IFS with real people [00:01:00] and extra self care practices for therapists.

[00:01:02] John: You can get all this for free in the link in the description and I hope you enjoy. 

[00:01:08] Mannah: Welcome everyone. Welcome back to tap in with again, John Clarke and myself. So this is the third part of a little series with you, John Clarke. Welcome back. 

[00:01:19] John: Thanks for having me. Yeah, this might be my first time as a three time guest in someone's podcast.

[00:01:25] John: So I really appreciate it. 

[00:01:27] Mannah: It's the record. Cool. So just to let people know you have your own podcast called Going Inside and you are an IFS teacher and therapist. And so what we're doing here is exploring IFS. Yeah. And there's been a topic that we didn't get to the other times. And that is about Anxiety.

[00:01:49] Mannah: And I feel, you were just talking about it, it's like I can call it forth. Do you know what I mean? 

[00:01:56] John: Definitely. 

[00:01:57] Mannah: It's always wanting to come in if you can. [00:02:00] So how is the perception in IFS around anxiety? 

[00:02:06] John: First of all, just, physiologically you were, we're obviously designed to respond to threat.

[00:02:12] John: And so part of the, that lurching forward, that preparing that, do I need to be ready? Sensation is just built into. Our bodies and our nervous systems, right? That's why that's there is to perceive threat before it's too late. And so I think, first of all, just by honoring that, if you are, if you have anxiety and who doesn't really, then it means your nervous system works.

[00:02:39] John: It just means that it's working overtime and it's misfiring, right? And it's seeing threat or over exaggerating threat where maybe it isn't. Yeah. So threatening or maybe we're worrying about it. Wouldn't necessarily change the outcome. And from a parts perspective, parts are doing the same thing as your nervous system.

[00:02:58] John: They're trying to get ahead of [00:03:00] it. So if someone has the number one fear, at least in America, is public speaking, right? And even if people don't do public speaking in their lives if you start thinking about being up in front of a group of people or on stage, you can probably start to get yourself a little worked up and feel a little activation in your body.

[00:03:19] John: Parts of you might start to worry. And then you might ask the part, what's the worry? I might get up there and then get nervous. And then one of my favorite techniques to use is called the downward arrow technique. You just keep asking, and then what? Yeah. Until you can't go any further. Yeah. So you get up there and then you get nervous.

[00:03:37] John: And you ask the part, and then what? Or what would be bad about that? And then people would notice. And then what would that mean? They would think less of me. And then what would that mean? They wouldn't want to work with me or be my friend. And what would that mean? Then I'd be fundamentally alone.

[00:03:53] John: And what would that mean? That's about it. So the worst case scenario is I go up on stage and end up fundamentally [00:04:00] alone. So this part of you is trying to help prevent that. And you could say, Hey, thanks part for trying to help me prevent that. That sounds really important. And we talk about being a little more self led or self leadership.

[00:04:14] John: The self leadership moment there is asking that part, if it's willing to suspend. its belief or suspend its fears enough for it to let you lead, right? Hey part, would you be willing to let me lead this public speaking thing that I've got to do? You can come beside me or behind me or you can hang out somewhere else.

[00:04:34] John: You can watch through a window and see how it goes. And some of it might come true. I could get nervous, people could notice, they could think less of me, and what self can offer to part is self can be more or less okay with that. Self can be okay with all that happening. Because we also can't promise the part that it won't happen.

[00:04:53] John: Oh, I'm sure I'll be fine, I'll be up there, it'll all go really smooth, and then it doesn't. And then the part goes, see, I told you just like trying to tell a [00:05:00] little kid, talk a little kid out of their fears, which is something that a lot of parents do naturally, myself included, but ultimately is not quite the move when trying to work with parts or kids.

[00:05:17] Mannah: Trying to comfort them, you mean? 

[00:05:19] John: Yeah. 

[00:05:20] Mannah: About finding that self quality of even if that were to happen. 

[00:05:26] John: That's right. Because we don't know what's going to happen, right? And that's, anxiety is wanting more information than is available to us, right? I want to know how things are going to work out, right? I want to know if my relationship's going to work out.

[00:05:44] John: I want to know if I'm going to keep my job or not. I want to know if a sick relative is going to get better or not. So then the practice or the challenge is, How do we practice being a little more okay with not knowing how do we practice letting go and trusting [00:06:00] that even if things do go south, I can be okay.

[00:06:05] John: I can get through it. I can connect with that self quality of courage. Yeah. 

[00:06:09] Mannah: Yeah. So do you see anxiety as a part on its own? Is that a part or is it an emotion within a part? 

[00:06:19] John: Yeah, I mean, I'm certainly not by all means the end all be all for these questions. My understanding of it or my explanation is that Parts hold emotions, right?

[00:06:30] John: Especially negative emotions like fear or anger or disgust or jealousy or whatever it might be, right? Self is not inherently scared or jealous or angry or. compulsive or whatever it is you're dealing with, right? So there's a part of me, right? Whether it's a protector in exile, there's a part of me that is holding fear, that is expressing fear.

[00:06:55] John: And you could think of it as this part of me is expressing fear through my [00:07:00] body. It's communicating to me through the emotion of fear. This part going, Hey, John, getting up on that stage and doing that public speaking thing or talking to a room of therapists or doing this podcast for the third time might be a bad idea, right?

[00:07:13] John: We might get obliterated because of it. Oh, I hear you. Yeah you're really worried about that happening and you're really working hard to make sure that doesn't happen. That makes sense. Hey part, tell me about the first time that happened. Tell me about how you took on this fear. And as we talked about last time, or one of these times, the parts have a very compelling story about how and when and why they picked up this fear or this polarization, right?

[00:07:38] John: If you're in fear a lot of the time, to the point where the DSM would say you have an anxiety disorder, you have a polarized part that is holding a lot of fear. And the result is you stay pretty blended most of the time. And so how do you get less anxious from an IFS perspective? You unblend, right? And then more of you [00:08:00] comes through.

[00:08:01] John: And you can navigate your life more fluidly and from a more self led place. 

[00:08:06] Mannah: Yeah. And so you mentioned if it's a diagnosis, there are many. anxiety forms, right? You can be anxious for your health. Am I sick? That kind of anxiety and you can, yeah, some kind of OCD maybe. There are many kinds of anxiety and you say then it is a polarized part per definition.

[00:08:33] Mannah: When you identify with it a lot? 

[00:08:36] John: It's polarized when a part of you took on an extreme role or an extreme stance in your system, right? So here's another example. People have a fear of being taken advantage of. In the case of relational trauma, right? I was just talking with a client about this yesterday, right?

[00:08:55] John: Because I've been hurt before, I'm afraid that if I show a bit more of myself and make myself [00:09:00] vulnerable, even to my partner or my wife of 10 years or whatever it is, they're going to take advantage of me. They're going to use that against me later, right? So that part has a very strong perspective and is polarized, right?

[00:09:13] John: Now you might have another part that's polarized on the other side that says, You stupid idiot, you have to be vulnerable if you want to have a healthy marriage, so be vulnerable. And the other part that's afraid of being vulnerable is going absolutely not. Being vulnerable is threat. So why would we do that?

[00:09:31] John: It's danger. It has gone poorly in the past and I don't trust that it's going to go well, or really I don't trust yet that self can handle it. Or I don't know that it's an option for self to handle it instead of me, 11 year old part who trusted dad and then he abused me. or whatever. 

[00:09:52] Mannah: Okay. Can I ask you something?

[00:09:54] Mannah: Okay. 

[00:09:54] John: Definitely. 

[00:09:55] Mannah: If you were going further with that, but otherwise my question is [00:10:00] sometimes I, all of these stories are really good and they make sense, but sometimes for me, there's no story. There's no one I can ask. It's just in my belly or it's just somewhere in my body, a sensation that I'm feeling this.

[00:10:16] Mannah: And that's another part of the question, is then I label it as anxiety and I could potentially open it up and say, I don't know what this is, be more open about it. But just that it's not necessarily something that can answer my questions. 

[00:10:31] John: I guess the question for you would be, how do you experience your parts?

[00:10:35] John: Do you hear them, see them? Do you have a two way dialogue with them? 

[00:10:39] Mannah: I feel that can be very different. And it's also different if there's a therapist there, then something else can happen as well. 

[00:10:47] John: That's common. Yeah, I think a lot of people when, part of what makes IFS, or a parts model different, but in particular IFS, is it's not an intellectual model, meaning it's not me just sitting [00:11:00] here going, Oh yeah, there was that time when I trusted dad and he hurt me, and so I have trust issues or part of me has trust issues.

[00:11:07] John: Just saying a part of me has trust issues is not enough in terms of creating real healing. So then we go into the, in IFS when you're getting trained to use it, you have the six F's, and one of those F's is find the part. So when you think about trusting dad and him hurting you or devastating you or abusing you how do you notice that part in or around your body?

[00:11:32] John: Do you hear it? See it? Is it a feeling in your stomach? And I know this sounds weird, but, if it's this feeling in your stomach, can you put your hands there, and can you talk to it? Can you open up a dialogue with it? And say, hey, pardon my stomach, I'm John, and I'm here. Tell me your story.

[00:11:53] John: I'm open to hearing your story. I want to hear who you are and what your story is. [00:12:00] And you wait until you get something. So it's a new way of getting information, right? And a lot of people will just say what they think the part would say. So they're not actually doing what we call insight work yet.

[00:12:12] John: They're not actually going inside, not even my podcast. They're just talking for the part, right? Yeah, it's like a scared little boy and he's like really afraid that, dad's going to come home and, hurt him again. Okay. And is that your guess about what he would say? Or is that the little boy inside in the belly actually saying that to you right now?

[00:12:33] John: Oh, I don't know. We'll just check and wait and see until you get something. Wait until it becomes really clear. You might be surprised what the little boy in your belly says. So establishing self to part connection is an essential skill of the IFS practitioner. And until you've done that, you're just talking about parts work, which is fine.

[00:12:53] John: It's the way a lot of parts work starts, is doing this intellectualizing. And also, there's an intellectualized [00:13:00] protector who's often keeping us from going inside, right? Who has to know the answers or is keeping the therapist at bay and saying, there's a protector saying, I'm not going to let you access that little boy in the belly yet.

[00:13:11] John: You're not safe. You haven't earned it. It seems like therapist has an agenda or whatever it is, even a self like agenda or a helpful agenda. So there's a texture and a quality to real insight work and a softening when you're really communing with your parts. 

[00:13:28] Mannah: Okay. Sure. I appreciate you said all of that because I have some questions for that.

[00:13:33] Mannah: But just holding also that. Even if I am trying to have that direct conversation, then maybe not words necessarily come up. Maybe it stays as a sensation. And like you said, maybe that's a way of experiencing a part through sensation only. But for what you said, that's, it's really interesting because I feel that's a dilemma as a [00:14:00] therapist.

[00:14:00] Mannah: If I feel that the client may not be. in actual contact with the part, then, okay, so what's going on in me? I have this judgment, first of all. So I have to check me, this is just my judgment discernment, but I'm not sure. And and also, is it better for the client to talk about it than to just go blank, right?

[00:14:20] Mannah: To talk about it from an intellectual place, then. Then two, maybe you feel like, oh, and I can't do this. And it's a whole interruption. 

[00:14:29] John: Going blank is a really, is another really common protector response. 

[00:14:36] Mannah: So you're 

[00:14:36] John: sitting there as the therapist and going, yeah, just connect with that little boy in the belly and see if you can find him in that that old living room that you see him in.

[00:14:45] John: And then the client just goes blank. And they're like, sorry, I just zoned out for a second. That's a part, right? A dissociative part. So that part stepped in for a really good reason and went, nope, not today. We're not with this [00:15:00] therapist or not yet, right? I don't trust that this is going to go well.

[00:15:05] John: And so there's the content of what you're talking about and you might even think, Oh, we're doing good work and we're talking about the little boy, right? And we're going back there. We're doing trauma work, but the process of what's happening dynamically is the protectors are doing what they do, right?

[00:15:21] John: They're protecting the system. You haven't earned their trust yet. And so that's why. In IFS, we're also trained to always start by working with protectors first and foremost until Otherwise, and yeah. 

[00:15:35] Mannah: Yeah, so can, actually can a protector, can that be anxiety? Can it be, can it function as protection?

[00:15:44] John: Sure. 

[00:15:45] Mannah: I 

[00:15:45] John: think so, yeah. 

[00:15:47] Mannah: So it doesn't have to be an exile hidden away. No. It can actually be something that's in front of a deeper emotion. Think 

[00:15:56] John: about a classic manager, the classic inner critic, which we've [00:16:00] talked about in this series, right? So the inner critic that holds the belief of if I'm not perfect and get perfect grades or get the perfect job or have the perfect LinkedIn profile or the perfect appearance or the perfect body, then people leave me, right?

[00:16:15] John: I'm worthless. People find out I'm worthless. They leave me. So that's a really strong protector response, right? And that manager is going to do its thing in the form of hyper control of the client's life and their eating habits and their exercise and being meticulous about their appearance and working 90 hours a week and all that.

[00:16:35] John: So they're running the show, right? 

[00:16:40] Mannah: So that, that is one expression of anxiety is what you mean. 

[00:16:45] John: Yeah. 

[00:16:46] Mannah: It's related to the perfectionism. 

[00:16:49] John: Yeah. 

[00:16:50] Mannah: I wanted to ask you about anxiety from another point of view, I guess it's from NAMM that I'm trained in, where we could say that it's a signal that [00:17:00] anxiety is actually a signal of repressed anger.

[00:17:07] Mannah: And I like the. Yeah. Because always in the situation, if I'm feeling anxious, I don't see it immediately that could be anger. But when I reflect on it later, then I'm like, that makes sense that I would have appreciated some boundaries there. 

[00:17:23] John: Simple. 

[00:17:23] Mannah: So yeah. You nailed 

[00:17:24] John: it. Angry is a violation of boundaries, right?

[00:17:31] John: Someone also told me recently, anger is truth on fire. Yeah. So if my four year old, someone takes her toy. And as a result, she takes their toy or hits them, and the parent goes, Don't do that, don't hit other kids, we do not hit other kids. But she's, her boundary's been violated, and she's got this truth on fire, which is that something unfair just happened.

[00:17:53] John: So I'm angry. She might also have a part of her that's scared that this kid's gonna take all of my toys. That this [00:18:00] kid's not going to ever take them back. That he's now going to take my food. If he took my toys. Physiologically, again, going back to the nervous system, if we were to scan your brain in anger, and then scan your brain in anxiety, they're going to look so shockingly similar.

[00:18:18] John: They might even look the same. Right? I used to give this example. In San Francisco, I used to work with a police officer. And he was coming to me for quote, anger management. Which a lot of people come to me for anger management, at least that's what they put in their, email or whatever. And he was driving through the city with his family and someone cut him off and almost ran him off the road.

[00:18:44] John: And so he blocked the guy, got out of his car and confronted him to the point of almost having a physical confrontation. So on the outside you go, okay, yeah, this guy's got anger management issues, right? He shouldn't have gotten that angry, [00:19:00] right? But then as I started to ask him more about what was really going on in that moment, of course, he said and I said if, can you get in touch with anything that was underneath the anger?

[00:19:10] John: And he said I was afraid. What were you afraid of? I was afraid that this guy was going to actually run me and my family off the road. And then I would have been behind the wheel and responsible for my kids, my wife getting hurt or dying. And I'd have to live with that forever. The shame, the guilt of that, I have to live with that forever, right?

[00:19:31] John: Okay. So that makes sense, right? But. It's more adaptive than to show that guy in the other car your anger response versus why don't you just get out of the car and walk up and say, Hey, man, that made me really scared. I really worry. I really feared for my family in that moment. Right?

[00:19:48] John: But 

[00:19:49] Mannah: yeah, why would you say it's more adaptive? 

[00:19:52] John: I'm not saying that like literally 

[00:19:55] Mannah: unpleasant for the person receiving the anger. 

[00:19:58] John: Just that. [00:20:00] If part of what my client then needed to communicate was, Hey, you violated a boundary, this was not safe. And when I'm loud and big and I make my body big and I clench my fists, maybe you're more likely to listen.

[00:20:13] John: That's why I'm saying it's more adaptive, right? If I'm trying to get someone to back off, right? Being angry and big is more adaptive than saying, Hey man, I'm actually, I'm really scared right now, right? I'm feeling a lot of fear in my body. I'm worried about my kids. The person is screw you, you're in my way.

[00:20:28] John: Or whatever, right? In a perfect world, maybe he could say, you made me afraid, right? That was really scary what you did back there. Could you be more conscious about your driving? Or whatever. Maybe that would be better. I don't know. But in the case of that knee jerk reaction and what we're designed to do biologically and from an evolutionary perspective, which is just ourselves and our loved ones alive, he did the right thing, right?

[00:20:56] John: He did the adaptive thing. But then [00:21:00] it causes all these other ripples in his life and he's got anger issues and he go, goes home and he's still angry, right? Or that anger response is just always right there. And he yells at his wife, yells at his kids, punches a hole in the drywall, and then he ends up in my office.

[00:21:12] Mannah: Yeah, so someone in that case would have to look at also, of course, the fear underneath the anger. 

[00:21:20] John: Eventually, that's what I'm trying to help them do is connect to that feeling underneath, right? And that fear and understand that fear response and to get ahead of it, right? And not always act on that impulse.

[00:21:33] John: Yeah. But it takes time. 

[00:21:35] Mannah: Yeah. That's the thing. If we allow it or not, to have that as an impulse, whether just not acting it out maybe. But yeah, holding back, just the way that you were just characterizing it here, how you would come up with sweet words around something where you're actually feeling anger.

[00:21:56] Mannah: That's. That's where many of us find ourselves doing [00:22:00] that. I remember not very long ago at my job where someone really said a lot of awful things to me. And this happened right at the job I'm in. And I just had to take it as a professional. And later I did experience a lot of anxiety when I was doing something and I didn't connect the dots, but it, and I don't know, but it could have been, it could have been something like that, that it's in a professional situation.

[00:22:25] Mannah: It, you can't maybe say it in a hard way, you can't really you just have to yeah yeah, somehow. And then that, maybe that's a part then that's not okay with that. There's a part inside. 

[00:22:38] John: This is a really good point. Most people, myself included, and especially if you have a trauma history, myself included, have a fairness part, right?

[00:22:50] John: A really strong fairness part, a part that's concerned with fairness and justice. inequality, and again has a really good reason for that. And [00:23:00] so a lot of times when an injustice happens like that at work, and your hands are tied, and you can't really say anything about it, or maybe a superior at work says something rude or offensive or dismissive or whatever, and you can't say anything about it.

[00:23:15] John: But you do the right thing in the moment. And go, yeah, sure. Sounds good. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. And then you get home and you're fuming or whatever overwhelm this part's overwhelming you about the unfairness of it. Especially in the case of relational trauma. Again, something unfair happened.

[00:23:33] John: Dad was his one job in the world was to take care of you and keep you safe. And he didn't. He was the one bringing the danger into your life. And naturally, you're going to have a part that picks up this polarization of fairness, right? Or looking for moments that are unfair, right?

[00:23:53] John: Yeah. 

[00:23:54] Mannah: So what are you saying in that? Are you saying, yeah, there's [00:24:00] less self quality or self justice? in the fairness part? 

[00:24:05] John: It's just that fairness part, if it jumps in and blends with you and completely takes the wheel, then it might create a mess. You might choose to be a little blended with it.

[00:24:17] John: As a way of fighting for fairness, right? So you, there might be a self led way to still address this thing at work, right? And say, Hey, I just wanted to talk to you about that thing that happened at work. A part of me really gets what you were saying. Another part of me is really struggling with it or feels like there was maybe a better way to say it.

[00:24:36] John: I'm wondering if you and I can work it out or find a solution to this problem. What do you think? So what I did there is I honored two parts, right? An intellectual part that gets it, right? And this person has a job to do and so do I. The other part that, that holds the feelings of unfairness, right?

[00:24:51] John: And says, hey, this is not right and so I'm calling attention to it. But I'm also not bulldozing the situation, right? And coming in and making a mess out of it, [00:25:00] right? Or being the angry employee. So you're doing it in a way that's as self led as possible while also acknowledging your parts. Which also encourages the other person to acknowledge their parts too, or at least bring some humility to the situation, right?

[00:25:15] Mannah: Is that healing in and of itself, do you think? Yes, 

[00:25:18] John: definitely. Even no matter 

[00:25:19] Mannah: the response? 

[00:25:20] John: No matter the response. And that is essential. If you're gonna do this, and I find this all the time with my clients, and they say Yeah, let's say, for instance, my dad abused me, and I've decided I'm finally going to confront him about it, right?

[00:25:37] John: If you're going to do that, then you have to go into that situation with zero attachment to the outcome, zero attachment to how he responds. So many people are waiting their entire lives and they're big grown ups. They're 60 years old still waiting for dad to say I'm sorry and nine times out of ten It's not coming It's never gonna come [00:26:00] and that's a really hard thing to hear and a really hard thing to sit with and I'm also not Saying that to be provocative But to actually give you permission to focus on what you can control and if you are Gonna either forgive him in your heart and know that he did the best he could given what he was carrying and his wounding Right?

[00:26:20] John: Or, there's a part of you that does want to call it out and stop the generational bullshit and say Dad, there's a part of me that can acknowledge you did the best you could when I was a kid. There's another part of me that wants to say you really hurt me and you abused me. It's taken me a long time and a lot of healing and a lot of therapy to work through that.

[00:26:38] John: It's made my life a lot harder than it had to be and I need you to know that. I'm not expecting any response from you. I'm not even asking for an apology, but I, there's a part of me that just needs you to know that. I want to introduce you to our sponsor for today, Jane, a clinic management software and EMR that helps you handle your clinic's daily admin tasks so you can free [00:27:00] up your evenings and weekends.

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[00:27:45] John: Let's dive in. 

[00:27:46] Mannah: Yeah. And let's say that this happens and then there is not the response that you were hoping for. That's maybe the opposite. And do you then in IFS, can you, because there's a [00:28:00] lot of imagination going on in IFS as well, can you then in your imagination see a father who does actually receive it or own up to it?

[00:28:09] John: And 

[00:28:10] Mannah: that is healing. 

[00:28:12] John: The surrogate father is self, in this case. What IFS offers and why it's so darn powerful is we don't have to wait for dad to come around and heal me and say I'm sorry, right? Self can go in as the surrogate parent, the loving, capable, kind parent, and find that little boy in the belly who was abused and say, I'm here now.

[00:28:38] John: Tell me about what you went through. Tell me how bad it was. Tell me how many times he hit you. What was it like when he hit you? Tell me all of that. Do you want to come with me into the present and just be with me, right? Where I can keep you safe from dad now, right? Do you know how old I am now? Oh, I'm actually 47, right?

[00:28:57] John: You thought I was still 8, like you. [00:29:00] I'm not 8, right? I'm 47. Is that part interested in coming with me? Is that part interested in letting go of what it's been carrying all this time and coming into, again, the loving embrace and self leadership of self? The surrogate father. And in that regard, when that part is fully cared for and unburdened and brought into the present, and in the protection of self in the safety of self, client will decide to confront or not confront dad.

[00:29:29] John: But if you're going to do it from a self led place. Right? 

[00:29:35] Mannah: Don't make 

[00:29:35] John: your healing contingent upon dad being sorry, because he's probably not right or in the case of all my clients especially my female clients who've been sexually assaulted, who've been raped, the that person rarely comes back around and says, I'm sorry, I ruined your life.

[00:29:51] John: I'm sorry, I did that to you. I'm sorry, I violated you. But these clients have, go ahead. 

[00:29:56] Mannah: Yeah, in that case, could you then, as a client, to see the [00:30:00] father in front of her and then Let him do what you wished he had done so like the client could well, 

[00:30:07] John: I guess you could create this kind of repair By if you're going inside you could ask for dad and his self qualities to appear And offer an apology to that little boy.

[00:30:22] John: You could create this scenario it might go okay, it might not go okay, right? It might backfire. I don't know. That's why the only guarantee we have is self, right? All you have is your, capital S, self. And part of becoming who we are, and becoming adults No matter how old you are, no matter if you've been an adult for decades is actually realizing I, I am enough, self is enough, and self can do the healing and dad and his brokenness and the part and his woundedness can go and do his healing work if he's going to do that.

[00:30:58] John: And then the other challenge [00:31:00] externally might be once I've done that healing work, how do I learn to just see my dad as a person as a flawed person like me and accept him as he is? so that we can have as good a relationship as possible if that feels okay to you. Or, on the other hand, it might be a very self led decision to say I'm choosing to no longer have a relationship with my dad because it hurts too much and he's still an unsafe person.

[00:31:25] John: And you could do that from a self led place. Yeah. 

[00:31:31] Mannah: Yeah, I see the difference. So it's where it's coming from. If it's coming from that wounded place or if it's something that you're really making a conscious decision about. 

[00:31:39] John: Yeah. 

[00:31:41] Mannah: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's just because there are different methods within IFS, right?

[00:31:46] Mannah: Where sometimes you would go back to that situation in the past and maybe confront or kick scream and do whatever that you wanted to have done in that situation. But, yeah, how do you look [00:32:00] up on that? 

[00:32:02] John: You could do a lot of things in that moment, and part of it is what the part wants. So if you go, if you're going inside, you're doing insight work on your own, or ideally with a therapist, and you've got the little boy, and you've got dad in that living room.

[00:32:18] John: And you've also got self self as I am today, my current age, looking like me wearing this shirt I'm wearing, and all three of us are in the room. I'm always going to default to the part so when I've established a really good connection with him, I'm going to go toward that part and look toward him and have him look toward me and say, What do you need to have happen with dad right now?

[00:32:44] John: Do you need to tell dad how much he hurt you? That might be too intense, or maybe he says, yes, that's what I need, and to do it with self there. He might say, I need self to tell dad how badly he hurt the boy and how messed up that was. And the [00:33:00] little boy can watch self do that, and that can be reparative, right?

[00:33:04] John: We could invite then for dad or dad's energy, and his self energy, if he can hear that, if he can take that in, right? It might be that repair doesn't really happen in that moment, right? And dad's still an asshole, right? And he's an asshole when we go inside, right? And his energy is still just as negative and violent or whatever, or as immature.

[00:33:26] John: And so it also might be that we just help that little boy get out of there, right? And come somewhere else and come with us into the present and whatnot. So it really just depends. We always default to the part. We really let the part decide. And the part generally knows what they need, right?

[00:33:43] John: At least, especially when we give it some options. 

[00:33:46] Mannah: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Because you can't really just order them, order the dad to then say, yeah maybe you can, but then it's, I guess then that should just then creating a narrative or [00:34:00] something. And it's a little different than what you intended to.

[00:34:03] Mannah: You 

[00:34:03] John: might be, the risk with that is you might be fabricating something, right? So go inside and you have dad say, he's sorry. 

[00:34:10] Mannah: Yeah. 

[00:34:11] John: Now in another therapy model, this actually might work, right? Or if you were to do some empty chair technique with dad, right? And this has parallels to IFS, but you do empty chair technique with, which is a gestalt technique and you say, okay, you sit in this chair and then have dad sit in this other chair, right?

[00:34:30] John: Dad quote unquote sit in this other chair. And then I want you to just tell him everything that he did to you. Tell him how pissed you are, right? You might even 10X it and say, okay, now really exaggerate. To really get it out. This idea of getting it out. And then you might say, okay, now imagine dad's apologizing or whatever.

[00:34:46] John: You're trying to trick the brain into repair, right? You're trying to trick the brain into making something happen that never happened. And that's what I don't like about that technique. That technique can be really good for, again, what gestalt therapy [00:35:00] considers unfinished business, right?

[00:35:02] John: So let's say dad is dead. What am I going to do with all this anger of how much he hurt me and never got to tell him? 

[00:35:08] Mannah: Yeah, 

[00:35:08] John: right. So that's the dilemma that many people are in or your abuser or the person who raped you is Has moved on with their life. They don't even they're not even aware of what they did or whatever, and you're never going to get that retribution.

[00:35:21] John: What do we do? This is why parts work is just so powerful and self healing, right? Is that we can do all the work inside with, and we have everything we need inside. And it's not just some fake imagination playing out some scenario of role play almost, right? Or as a therapist, the therapist could say, All right, I'm gonna be your dad.

[00:35:41] John: Pretend I'm your dad and tell me how mad you are, and this and that, and act it out, or we could do psychodrama or whatever. There's a million ways to do it, and it's not to say that a lot of techniques like that might not help, right? Or be really powerful, or help people click into some insight about it all.

[00:35:56] John: Or realize that, oh, my anger is not helping me, or my anger is actually [00:36:00] more about mom, or more about whatever. But it's just that I think for true healing to happen, I IFS and going inside has a different texture to it, has a different quality. Working in your inner world and working directly with parts, it feels Calm and soothing and emotional and powerful, but not like triggering and not like I'm acting something out or I'm getting something out of my system, which is what a lot of anger, zeitgeist around working with anger, is involved with.

[00:36:31] Mannah: With, what you were saying, getting it out, that whole rhetoric. Getting it 

[00:36:34] John: out. 

[00:36:35] Mannah: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:36:37] John: They've actually, on that note with anger, there's actually studies that the expression of anger just leads to more anger. So they did this study long, long time ago, like decades ago. This is like a G Psych 101 study, where they basically had kids go into a room and get out their anger [00:37:00] by punching a punching bag.

[00:37:02] John: And then another group of kids that didn't do that, right? The kids that got out their anger on the punching bag, they had more anger. Right? The expression of anger begets more anger. 

[00:37:13] Mannah: It kind 

[00:37:13] John: of makes sense. You're repaving that neural pathway in your brain and you're building that habit, right?

[00:37:21] Mannah: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But for your question there before, what do you do with that unfinished business? And so if you don't have a way to handle it, there's no one, there's no place you can give it to say, send it back to. Then. That's, just to circle back to anxiety, that's pretty certain to become something under the surface that could make you nervous in all sorts of situations.

[00:37:48] Mannah: That's what I'm thinking for myself as well, like unresolved emotions might be beneath many of my nervous reactions. 

[00:37:56] John: It can make you nervous. It can also make you sick, right? [00:38:00] This energy literally has to go somewhere in your body and gets stuck somewhere in your body. If it's not expressed in some way and again, expressing or directing that energy somewhere is different from hitting a punching bag.

[00:38:13] John: Can 

[00:38:15] Mannah: you, do you think self can become sick? I guess sometimes people talk about the soul as something that can become sick as well. So it's just when you mentioned that, how do you see that sick when you say? 

[00:38:31] John: I don't think so. And I'm pretty sure the IFS folks would say, I don't think so.

[00:38:36] John: Self is uh, it's impenetrable, right? And it's basically your essence your soul. The way that my mentor, Randy, used to explain this, and this was before IFS was big on the scene and everything. This was, 15 years ago when he was training me was he would tell clients, and this is my mentor who's been working with trauma clients for [00:39:00] decades, would tell clients at your core, right?

[00:39:04] John: You have an untouchable light inside of you, right? Like a light bulb and the filament in that light bulb is completely and perfectly intact. That light bulb, even if that light bulb is foggy or dirtied. or hard to see through, or whatever it might be, right? That light inside of you is completely intact, and it's important you know that as we set out to do what we're going to do in this room with this trauma healing work.

[00:39:34] John: So you need to know right off the bat, in other words, you're not broken, it's impossible for you to be broken. No matter how much you're hurting. And I think that's very true. And from an IFS perspective, my mentor was talking about the self, right? Really just talking about like your heart.

[00:39:52] Mannah: Yeah. And so when you identify with that, then you are not broken, but often we identify And that's the [00:40:00] definition we identify with our parts, that's who we take ourselves to be. 

[00:40:04] John: Parts fear that we're broken, right? Again, going back to what we're talking about today and anxiety, most people, right? They, especially when you have a trauma history and things have gotten so bad and you have felt so bad for so long, or you have been under the weight of addiction for so long, there's part of you that fears, I am literally and actually broken to the point of, or a lot of people, and think about ending their lives, right?

[00:40:31] John: And I've tried different things, I've tried medication, I've gone to, intensive programs, I've done yoga retreats, I've done silent retreats I've done ketamine, I've done psychedelics, I run a lot, I've done like a lot of cardio, whatever I've done. And yet I'm still hurting, right?

[00:40:46] John: I still feel fundamentally unwell, right? I forget where I was going with that. 

[00:40:54] Mannah: The sense that you're broken and a part can take that on. 

[00:40:58] John: A part can take that on, [00:41:00] right? And fears that you're. that you're broken, right? Basically that fears you are the part. 

[00:41:05] Mannah: You have to take us up again after going down.

[00:41:08] John: Yeah. Yeah. And then, if, again, if you go back to that downward error technique with this part that fears you're broken and you go, what would that mean if you're broken? That no one can help me. And what would that mean that I'm stuck this way forever? And what would that mean that everyone in my life leaves me when they find out how messed up I actually am, right?

[00:41:26] John: And how dirty and unclean I actually am. And then what would that mean? Then they would leave me and I would end up completely alone. Nine times out of ten, I find that's the fear, right? Our aloneness. Ending up completely alone. 

[00:41:41] Mannah: Yeah. And so being with that, that's actually something that's okay when we are in self, then that's okay.

[00:41:50] John: Again, all we're asking for parts to do is suspend their disbelief for a moment. And I say this to clients, right? Especially at the outset of therapy, which is Even though parts of [00:42:00] you might fear that you're going to be stuck this way forever, or you're going to be under this addiction forever, or dealing with these panic attacks forever would that part of you be willing to wait a little bit, to delay concluding for a little bit?

[00:42:15] John: And even just give us, I don't know, three or four weeks to work on this stuff and try this weird IFS thing and just see if it helps a bit, right? Or try working with your nervous system, maybe we're doing some somatic work. Is that part willing to delay and just let you try some things? And if so, great.

[00:42:31] John: Think the part for me. And sometimes that's all we need is just a little opening in order to do the work. 

[00:42:37] Mannah: Oh, yeah. So that would, be the same with someone coming with anxiety, right? Thinking it's never going to leave. 

[00:42:46] John: Yeah. Clients tend to think that there's something special about them in the way of even though this therapy that John was offering me has helped tons of people and has even helped him that they [00:43:00] are the outlier.

[00:43:01] John: That's 

[00:43:01] Mannah: how I feel. Totally. It's a client. 

[00:43:05] John: Yeah. 

[00:43:05] Mannah: It's not this one. I know you've had many clients, but no, not me. This is different. 

[00:43:11] John: Exactly. Yeah. Super common. 

[00:43:14] Mannah: And so what do you say about that? 

[00:43:16] John: Again, I just asked them the same thing. And so when I asked the part of them that fears that and I just named their parts, so the part of you that really worries that you are the outlier and this IFS stuff, isn't going to work for you. And they're going to be this way forever. I totally get that. That's super scary, right? If things stay this way forever, I don't promise them that this is going to work or get better or anything like that, because I don't know.

[00:43:38] John: And I can't, I don't want to bypass them twice. I don't want to break their trust by going, it's going to get better in just six or seven sessions. I can promise you results, right? You're going to get better. I don't know, but I can meet them where they are and go, there's a party that really fears that you are an outlier.

[00:43:54] John: There's a part of you that really fears that you're special in a bad way. 

[00:43:57] Mannah: Yeah. 

[00:43:59] John: I totally get [00:44:00] that. And so to the party that fears that would that part of you just be willing to suspend, needing that, that conclusion just for a few weeks while we try this thing and we can check in with that part about how this is going.

[00:44:11] John: So in that regard, I'm doing implicit direct access is what that technique is called, right? Talking to your part without saying, Hey, let me talk to your part, right? 

[00:44:21] Mannah: Yeah. Okay. So here in the end, John, I just would like to ask you about Anxiety in terms of the world and what's happening. And I think anxiety has, is broadening in that sense that after COVID and just this fear collectively that.

[00:44:44] Mannah: Everything can change suddenly and so the whirlwind, so what, how do you feel about anxiety related to all that's going on in the world? It's in a way it's natural, but it's also like it, you can't walk around [00:45:00] with that anxiety all the time. 

[00:45:03] John: Yeah. This piece around, around COVID and the ripples of that, in the sense of our world can change on a dime, our lives can change on a dime, right?

[00:45:11] John: Something as global. As COVID can come along and change everything is real and valid and is something we know now, right? And we have to make sense of that in our own way. And so again I, it just starts with validation, right? For folks wondering how do I help my own anxiety, my own anxious parts, it just starts by validating that, hey, what we went through, Was horrible and really scary and it was terrifying to not know what's happening in the world And are we gonna be okay and some people were not okay, and that's hard and still terrible in this sense that the rug could be pulled out from underneath us at any point.

[00:45:48] John: That's terrifying, isn't it? Yeah, I get that. That's super scary. That's it. Right and so paradoxically just by validating The fear tends to [00:46:00] reduce a little bit, right? Versus, Oh, I'm sure it'll be fine. We've been through it before. We have vaccines. We have this and that. And we can always whatever, right?

[00:46:10] John: It doesn't work, right? It's why when you're afraid, your partner or your friend or whoever reassuring you doesn't work because they don't know. And so I just validate for them. And for my own parts that it makes sense that you're scared. It's scary to not know what's going to happen next.

[00:46:27] John: And just be with them in that fear. So being with. is so much more important than anything else. It's the most important thing. From an IFS perspective, just from a therapy healing perspective, from my personal perspective, being with is the most powerful thing we can do for our parts, for others parts, for one another, right?

[00:46:48] John: And not trying to fix or rescue or save anyone, just being with them just as they are and saying, Hey, your fear makes total sense to me. I'm okay with your fear, basically. It makes sense. [00:47:00] 

[00:47:00] Mannah: Yeah. Yeah. I even feel it when you say it, that allowance, that spaciousness, I totally agree to that. And that sensation, that's how I found to work the best with my sensation, where it is placed in my body and I call it, I label it anxiety then that is actually.

[00:47:18] Mannah: to give it some attention. And yeah, maybe a part of it is not labeling it as anxiety because then other parts want it to go away.

[00:47:28] Mannah: Whatever it is, let's just make room for it. Okay. And I also want to say that it's a part of being human, I think is that there's a big mission in just. us being humans to overcome fear. It's a big one. 

[00:47:44] John: Yeah, so true. That's a great point. Or that being afraid equals being weak, right? Which is just simply not true, right?

[00:47:55] John: There's this self help book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. So a lot of times [00:48:00] for my clients, if I'm helping them with their public speaking anxiety, the point is to not get them to the point where they're not afraid to do it, right? When I go out surfing, Especially when there's bigger waves. I'm afraid this happened last, just the other day when I was surfing most recently, the point isn't to not be afraid.

[00:48:19] John: The point is to feel the fear and be able to hold the fear and do the thing anyway. Right? Yeah, there's just, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being afraid to Europe. That's a great point, 

[00:48:28] Mannah: but I think I actually said the opposite. Now I wish I had said the thing that you thought I said, but I think no.

[00:48:36] Mannah: I actually did say that I think one of our missions is to overcome fear and turn towards love, that kind of point. But I see I could have made the other point as well. 

[00:48:48] John: I see what you mean. Over, what is overcoming fear? This might take us down the rabbit hole, but in my opinion, overcoming fear is feeling the fear and embracing it and doing the thing anyway.

[00:48:58] John: So if you're afraid of [00:49:00] being vulnerable and really leaning into your relationship or your friendship or whatever, then or, connecting with a family member in a more vulnerable way, then the healing can come from feeling that fear and doing it anyway. And to your point, like finding like love, right?

[00:49:16] John: Love being the antidote to fear. 

[00:49:18] Mannah: Yeah, exactly. So it's what you listen for, what you're guided by, lit by, yeah, 

[00:49:22] John: exactly. 

[00:49:24] Mannah: Okay, Björn Clarke, we did it again. 

[00:49:26] John: Somehow did it again. I thought we'd run out of things to talk about, but it seems to be the opposite. 

[00:49:33] Mannah: Yeah, I do have a new idea. I'll I'll send that to you.

[00:49:35] Mannah: Okay, 

[00:49:35] John: great. 

[00:49:37] Mannah: Thank you so much for this, for taking us into the landscape of anxiety and other side ways. Thank you for that. 

[00:49:46] John: My pleasure. Thank you for having me again. These are really fun and I really appreciate the opportunity to do this and be on this side of the microphone. Like I said before, as I'm always, I'm usually on the other side being the interviewer.

[00:49:57] John: And yeah, I just love talking about this stuff. And [00:50:00] for anyone listening that the last thing I'll say is, hopefully I didn't give too much information to the point where I'm not the show, You have parts that are more anxious now about how to remember all this, or how do I do IFS on myself or whatever.

[00:50:12] John: Maybe just think about one little thing you can take from today and sit with that for a day or two, or journal with it, or take a walk, and just think about validating the parts that are afraid, or whatever it is. Just try to take one little thing from today, because this work has to be titrated. If it's not, you will get overwhelmed and it can confirm parts that have this fear that I'm broken or that I can never heal.

[00:50:34] John: And so just take a little bite, whatever you can digest, and then maybe you could come back and finish the, episode later or whatever. 

[00:50:44] Mannah: Good encouragement. Good encouragement. I applaud you. 

[00:50:49] John: Great. 

[00:50:51] Mannah: Okay. Talk to you later. Thanks 

[00:50:52] John: again. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to another episode of going inside.

[00:50:57] John: If you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe [00:51:00] wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.

John Clarke
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