IFS and Perfectionism with Dave Adamusko
IFS and Perfectionism with Dave Adamusko
In this episode of "Going Inside," we dive into the intricacies of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy with guest Dave Adamusko, exploring how IFS helps individuals navigate complex emotions, inner conflicts, and perfectionism. We shed light on understanding and working with different parts of oneself to foster healing and personal growth.
Key Topics Discussed:
1. Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy:
- Dave and I discuss the fundamentals of IFS therapy, emphasizing the importance of recognizing and engaging with various internal parts that influence behavior and emotions.
2. Accessing Inner Worlds:
- The conversation explores techniques for accessing one's inner world, including guided imagery and experiential exercises, to facilitate introspection and understanding of internal dynamics.
3. Navigating Emotions and Vulnerability:
- Dave shares insights on helping clients navigate challenging emotions, such as anger and fear, by fostering a compassionate and attuned relationship with their internal parts.
4. Attachment and Attunement:
- The discussion highlights the role of attachment and attunement in IFS therapy, drawing parallels between parent-child dynamics and the therapeutic relationship to promote healing and regulation.
5. Transformative Healing and Self-Discovery:
- Dave and I discuss how IFS therapy can lead to transformative healing and self-discovery, enabling individuals to cultivate a deeper connection with themselves and others while navigating life's challenges.
For more information on Dave Adamusko visit: https://www.therapywithdave.com/
Interview Transcript:
John: [00:00:00] This is Going Inside, healing trauma from the inside out. Hosted by me, licensed trauma therapist, John Clark. Going Inside is a weekly podcast on a mission to help you heal from trauma and connect with your authentic self. Tune in for enlightening guests, interviews, immersive solo deep dives, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations.
John: Follow me on socials, @JohnClarkTherapy on Instagram. Tick tock and YouTube and apply to work with me one on one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Excited to introduce my guest for today. Dave Adamusko is an LMFT in the state of Arizona, certified IFS therapist and IFSI approved consultant.
John: Dave also does leadership consultation for individual and groups and can. Uh, be found at therapy with dave. [00:01:00] com. Dave, thanks again for being here. And, um, yeah, what else should people know to kind of expand on that bio a little bit? And also what are you up to lately?
Dave: Yeah. Um, uh, like I said, marriage and family therapists. Um, so in my training, I was sort of, Uh, introduced to attachment theory and how to help people in relationships, uh, one with another, you know, couples, families, things like that was a real heavy focus. So that's just been a passion of mine from, from the beginning, um, went to graduate school in Utah and then eventually moved to Pennsylvania, uh, where I'm originally from Northeast suburbs, and, uh, I got a job working at a fairly large treatment center on the East Coast and had a very unique experience working there where I worked for a program [00:02:00] called Breakthrough, where we did workshops and intensives. Um, for people that have had like sustained recovery and, you know, just any person that, that wanted to do some personal growth and understand themselves better.
Dave: So, um, I loved the experiential groups and using, um, rather than kind of sitting in a circle and talking and processing that way, which is one way to do it, uh, we, we would commonly say, like, show me, don't tell me. So if we want to look at anxiety or, um, you know, someone had, uh, a family dynamic they wanted to look at, we would have them show it, like, ask them one in the group to represent, uh, your anxiety.
Dave: Where would it stand in the room? How would it stand? You know, uh, if it had a voice, what would it say? And so we'd be able to map this out, whether it be a family structure, Or, uh, an internal experience and, [00:03:00] um, it's just a lot of fun. So I did that for about, uh, five, six years and then moved, uh, to where I'm at right now in Mesa, Arizona, my wife was born and raised here.
Dave: So we relocated. So I, um, still do some of that experiential group work through a program called onsite in Tennessee. And I'm a guide for them and, and, uh, you know, um, have a pretty standard. Uh, private practice here myself, uh, where I see couples, individuals and also do some, uh, leadership consulting.
John: Great. Yeah. You know, if you hadn't said onsite, onsite is exactly what I was thinking. Um, I've had a bunch of clients, uh, go to onsite as kind of a supplement to the work. Uh, we've done in therapy or, um, you know, we traditional kind of one to one weekly therapy, whether it's online or in person. And, um, you know, the, these clients become great advertisers [00:04:00] for onsite because they come back with some, some big shifts.
John: And I will say specifically two of my clients that came back and said it was the experiential. Exercises and the psychodrama piece, uh, exercises that really led to breakthroughs for them and really were the most powerful. So maybe we can dive further into that, you know, today, as we're talking about IFS and experiential IFS and kind of doing parts work, um, uh, kind of. Like you said, doing it in the room or, uh, acting it out. Um, yeah, maybe we can just kind of start there.
Dave: Yeah. So, you know, I was originally just in love with this concept of attachment and how we relate to other people, uh, we're social creatures and we're sort of born that way and, and that. Doesn't stop after we're children.
Dave: We, we need sort of relationships, uh, in our lives and, and just [00:05:00] understanding how that goes right, how it goes wrong, learning how to, uh, intervene on, on relationships to help them, uh, work out better. And. When I was simultaneously working on, on, at this program that did workshops doing psychodrama, um, I was trying to understand the, the clinical foundations of it.
Dave: And one day, um, someone that I, that I worked with, cause our groups were co led, uh, did a, a piece of work for someone where they mapped out their internal experience parts, you know. Um, and I saw that and just said, what? What was that? That made so much sense. That was so clear. There are these parts that were protecting and they're protecting this wounded part.
Dave: And I was like, that may, that just clicked. Yeah. And uh, my coworker said, Oh, that's internal family [00:06:00] systems. And ever since then, like most people probably like yourself, it's like, once you, once you get, uh, once you get exposed to it, you're like, what is this? This is interesting. You sign up for all the classes and.
Dave: I went through level one, you know, level two, and I had a very unique situation where traditionally the model is one on one with another, with a therapist or practitioner, pretty standard. And you ask the person to explore their internal world by closing their eyes and going inside. Um, And you navigate their internal world that way.
Dave: Well, I went back to work where I was in this group setting and I had to find a way to use this model that I was loving in a, in a different way. And so there's a lot of sculpting and showing that internal world externally and visualizing it. Um, and that's where. I really just fell in love with the application [00:07:00] and the seamlessness by which you could, you could use IFS in experiential and group in a group format.
John: Yeah. I want to talk more about both the experiential piece, but also the attachment piece. Um, this was just coming up today in the, uh, group supervision that I lead for my group practice. And a lot of those clinicians are, um, learning IFS or at different stages, um, in this. This piece around internal attachment, uh, to me is, is pretty huge with, with IFS, um, and with trauma work in general, right?
John: Yeah. And thinking of healing, uh, these attachments inside and then kind of outside. So for a lot of people, um, with a, a trauma background, some of their external relationships are chaos, right? Mm-Hmm. , it's hard to trust people. I end up sabotaging relationships. I seek out, um, uh, abusive partners over and over again, right?
John: Even though. Part of me knows better, whatever it is. [00:08:00] Um, and so, yeah, you know, I think like, uh, accessing these, these parts of ourselves that are oftentimes young, vulnerable, wounded, kind of stuck in a moment in time. Um, yeah. Is, is, is such a big part of, uh, of IFS and a critical part of, of the model.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. I, the, they're so complimentary, the attachment world, um, and the IFS world are just so integral. It's like, if, if you show me someone that has chaotic external relationships, It's typically a window into what their internal relationship is like. Yeah. And there are some, I think there are some wounds that really can primarily be healed through repair, [00:09:00] through the external relationship.
Dave: And there are some, some wounds that can really only be healed through that internal relationship. And I think, you know, the wisdom is to know the difference at times. Yeah, absolutely.
John: Yeah. Um, I think also like I know a lot of clients, um, sometimes clients come in with some knowledge of kind of like what I would call pop psychology or these kind of waves of pop psychology that come through, uh, and things like attachment and people being like, Oh my gosh, I heard that there's this thing called attachment styles and I did this quiz online and it told me I'm like anxious avoidant and it feels like a life sentence.
John: Yeah. Right? Like I got this test and now I have this label and, uh, some attachment, you know, theory says, well, you're stuck that way, right? Your, your, your primary caregivers kind of gave you a style by their attempts to parent you or to. Connect with you consistently, um, [00:10:00] often which that didn't go well or didn't go as planned or sometimes mom was a two other times she was totally absent or drunk or annoyed that you were asking for love or whatever.
John: Right. But a lot of people come, you know, from, from those, those kind of like, um, broader ideas about attachment and, um, Yeah, there's more to it than that, right?
Dave: Yeah. I mean, um, certainly in the beginning, um, when I was learning about attachment before I learned about IFS, it was. I had a more of a consistent approach of like, okay, this is your attachment style.
Dave: You know, this is the way that you are. Yeah. And, and we could do another five hours of, is that nurture? Is that nature? Is that genetic? Like, like where does all that come from? And, and, uh, all of that is really fascinating and interesting to me. But when I, The thing about IFS is that it really opens it up [00:11:00] to just say, it's just a part of you.
Dave: And, you know, that we experience wounds, we experience hurts and pains, and our bodies are just exquisite learners of how to recognize and avoid hurt and pain. Whether that's physical or emotional, the brain doesn't really seem to care much. And so when we experience those pains, as you know, that trauma, Creates a belief in a hurt and a wound and then naturally, because we're so resilient, we create those protectors and those protectors then often become what's known as our attachment style and uh, yeah, the, it can be one in one relationship.
Dave: We can have another attachment style in a different relationship and, you know, the disorganized attachment. Is really just parts protector parts battling [00:12:00] each other for what they see is ultimately safety, you know, one part saying, hold on for dear life. Don't ever let this go because if we let this go, we're going to be lonely.
Dave: We're going to be hurt. Yeah. Yeah. And then a complimentary part, just saying, don't, don't get involved, you know, don't get too close, push away, push away. Cause if, if we get too close, we're going to get hurt, we're going to get lonely. And so they're both seem to often be trying to solve that same problem.
John: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, maybe walk me through a little bit how you, um, Yeah. Well, I, I wanted to step back for a second, a shift that I encountered once I discovered IFS or learning IFS is a lot of therapy is kind of what I would call insight oriented. So like for instance, if a client comes in and I'm thinking, well, I work from this attachment perspective, I could [00:13:00] help you come to understand your anxious avoidant attachment style, right?
John: Or like, you know, when people get close to you, then you push them away and you kind of head for the door before they can kick you out the door. Right? Right. Now. Okay, great. You know that and you see clients that might have a light bulb moment in kind of understanding a pattern or behavior or some part of their psychology intellectually, right?
John: And yet what do we do about it? Right? And my definition of healing has changed so much, right? So while that attachment style piece might be true to your life, how do we actually heal, you know, the, the wounds or the wounded parts of you that, um, that end up Running when you get close to someone, and this is where, you know, I think IFS is just such a, uh, a needed departure from that kind of intellectualizing type therapy or that inside oriented type therapy that I think, um, is easy to do and it's almost fun to do.
John: It's almost academic to like, [00:14:00] or even just like talking about our, our parts right from this kind of intellectual, um. you know, vantage point, right? It's, it's much safer, but, um, it's not necessarily where the deep healing happens, right?
Dave: Yeah. And I think one of the reasons why I love IFS so much is because to me, there is a nice sturdy bridge between the intellect and the somatic and experiential, because I Have all sorts of parts that love to get intellectual and just talk about things and figure them out.
Dave: And it's like, that's from some of my system. It's like, that's the key to safety is like learning, figuring it out, understanding it. And so, man, I can get really stuck in that loop with some clients that also are a little intellectual. But what I love about the model is that it [00:15:00] provides. A way into the model, if that's what somebody is wanting or needing to feel a little safer.
Dave: And it also allows for a transition to go inside and say, okay, intellectually. Sure. You can understand that you have to befriend these parts. It's very easy to explain to somebody like, Oh, if you have a friend and that person is feeling anxious and they come to you and they say like, Oh, I'm really, I'm really scared about this thing, or I don't know about this.
Dave: And you just say, Stop it. You're annoying me. That's not going to like that person's likely not going to feel better. But if you talk to your friend and you say like, Hey, come on in, like, tell me more about it. Tell me about your fear. That person is likely to maybe take a breath and people understand that.
Dave: But, uh, And that makes a lot of sense, but it's that going inside [00:16:00] and having that relationship with yourself and feeling that and having that, um, reparative experience. You know, our, our human bodies seem to really love and respond to like repair. Yeah. And being able to do that with, within your own system and wounding and parts, uh, that's where like the rubber meets the road. It's not just an intellectual endeavor.
John: And if attachment is about. rupture and repair, then that makes sense too, right? And these connections we have in IFS terms between self and parts, then, um, although some of those connections or attachments have been ruptured, right? Or, um, the isolation has happened.
John: They, they can indeed be repaired. And a lot of times parts are so relieved when we Come to them, right? Or when a client kind of meets apart for the first time can be really powerful. You know, um, [00:17:00] an example that I always have in my life is, you know, being a parent and having a, you know, near four year old and thinking about, uh, or even a lot of my clients who are parents, right?
John: And thinking about, um, if, if one of your kids was dealing with a big feeling or was feeling Um, scared or had some anger, right? Um, how, how do we help, you know, um, a child through those feelings? And to your point, um, a lot of times we have parts that, that, um, are critical or dismissive or, or whatever it might be.
John: Um, and yet if you can help people access, um, more self than they, than, than, than they know exactly what to do when they encounter these. These, these vulnerable parts.
Dave: Yeah. Agree.
John: So, yeah. So when, when you think about, [00:18:00] um, the, the experiential piece and kind of going back to this, like maybe walk me through how. You have helped clients kind of act out, um, their, their IFS work or their, their, their parts work?
Dave: Yeah. So, um, in the model we're might get in a little bit into, like, into the weeds a bit, into the, the nerdiness of the model but in the model of IFS traditionally, um, the way that. You help someone access their inner world is kind of through like a guided imagery, you know, where if you've ever had someone say, like, close your eyes, go inside and walk you through something. And that's a lot of what we're doing is we're helping people slow down, kind of disconnect from the external world and connect with what's going on inside.
Dave: A lot of times we recognize these parts of ourselves through thoughts or. feelings or emotions, uh, [00:19:00] body sensations. So closing your eyes and going inside is one way to do that. Um, but through doing a lot of experiential work, especially psycho drama. Another way to do that is to, you know, as someone If you watch someone, they'll often speak from a certain part, you know, they'll be saying one thing that all of a sudden they'll be like, and I just got so angry and then all of a sudden they'll just switch and they'll be like, but I know that that was wrong and I shouldn't have done that.
Dave: And so something I found really useful is to slow that down a bit and to say, can you go back? To that, like notice where your fist was, you know, can you do that again? And, and say that again with that same energy, do you notice that energy? And all of a sudden they're like, Whoa, I do. And I might say that I'm really curious [00:20:00] about that energy is, is I've heard you speak about that energy.
Dave: Um, that it comes out at home sometimes, but I've never really seen it, but I'm, I'd really like to get to know it better. If that, I'm going to do something strange. If that part of you could just speak freely, uh, what would it say? You know, and then I just have. Just a casual conversation and sometimes even introduce myself.
Dave: I'm Dave. I'm here. And you know, John's mentioned that you show up sometimes at home, you know, what, uh, what's something you wish John would know? Cause it seems like you really want him to know something. Yeah. And that part of us that often doesn't get a voice or it only gets a voice in a very extreme way.
Dave: We can have that conversation and we can get to ultimately what we're doing with these parts as we're finding out what their fears are. Yeah. You know, it's like Dick [00:21:00] Schwartz says, you know, um, in each person's, like he quotes, uh, Longfellow, if we could read the secret history of each person's life, or if we could read the secret history of, Of each person we would find in their life, sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility.
Dave: So through this little interview process directly, we call it direct access. Uh, we can find out a lot of their secret history and what they're afraid of and, and help that part realize it doesn't have to react in the same way. Yeah.
John: Yeah. This idea of parts having good intention, right. Or for instance, Uh, client comes to therapy because I've quote unquote got anger issues, right? Or in my case, you know, I also work with, um, uh, a lot of men. And so I've had a male client recently where it's like, I'm here because I got angry and I yelled at my wife and then I was horrified. That I yelled at my wife and she was horrified [00:22:00] too. So I'm here. And there's a thick layer of shame already in the room, right?
John: About what it means to be here and the fact that I lost control and all that. And then, you know, to your point, um, rather than rolling up our sleeves and going, all right, how do we control this, this, this darn anger, right? And get rid of it. Yeah. And I have asked, we kind of do the opposite, right? So this, this, this part of you that got angry.
John: Can we get to know it a little bit? Can you locate it right now? Can you find it in your body? Can you ask it what it was trying to do for you in that moment? Well, it was afraid if the fight kept going that I would, you know, be overwhelmed with shame, whatever it is. Oh, gotcha. So this anger kind of came in and ended the fight and scared your wife away, right?
John: So another part of you wouldn't get flooded with shame. That makes so much sense, right? Let the partner, you get that or whatever. Right. And then they come off to the races. Yeah.
Dave: Yeah. And that kind of brings it back to that [00:23:00] attachment piece, that attunement that helps, you know, we instinctively know that that's what helps calm the central nervous system of a child.
Dave: You don't have to be like a neuroscientist or a trained therapist to, to know that if child's hurt, you kind of get on their level and you speak to them and like, kind of like a softer voice. Uh, get into their world a little bit and help them settle. Um, and the same goes, like we still have the same central nervous system, even though we grow up and that attunement is, is essentially what we're, we're trying to help create with that self depart relationship and, you know.
Dave: In the case of the anger and shame, which those two things go together, as you know, it's like one, two, it's just like having two kids at home, you know, one starting to do this thing, you know, the other one's going to jump in and [00:24:00] it's kind of like getting in there and, and separating a little bit and say like, okay, there's one of me, there's two of you, we're going to work this out, both of you are going to get a chance to, Get some attention.
Dave: I'm going to start here and starting to settle that that down because what happens in our brain is it just it goes unchecked and the water just falls down that hill so often that it becomes habituated and yep. Through IFS we can stop that lightning fast response and slow it down and, you know, decrease some of the intensity, frequency, and duration of just the way that it goes round and round.
John: Yeah, people are usually are often surprised that, um, that that type of change or that type of healing is possible, right? Or that your therapist isn't just here to, [00:25:00] um, prescribe. A list of coping skills to make sure you don't get angry again, right? Um, which is, you know, what I think a lot of people either think therapy is, or there's a lot of therapy where that is the main kind of approach is like, how do we, how do we prevent this feeling from happening again?
John: Or how do we prevent this drinking from happening again? Right? How many, how many days? Can you go without drinking and let's work there, right?
Dave: Yeah. And I think that they're, you know, sometimes they're, it can naturally create a polarization, you know, between like the, the skills camp and then like the somatic camp. And I really like taking that sort of, I like, I think all of them are kind of important. Yeah. Knowing where you're at is important. And yeah, being able to have that flexibility to, [00:26:00] to know when it's appropriate to use one versus the other, um,
John: well, I would argue, you know, that like, um, Yeah, on one hand, IFS is kind of like, uh, anti coping skills or like traditional coping skills of like prescribing them to the client.
John: Like when you, when you're angry, just do deep breathing until you're not angry anymore. Right. Which would be disregarding a part that is carrying anger and here for a reason and let's invite it all the way in. Right. Or you drank a bunch last night after this fight with your, your wife and let's. Let's, let's move toward that part of the, the, the drink right until you couldn't feel it anymore.
John: Right. That's a fair point. Yeah, but I would argue that all that is a skill. Um, and again, this piece of going inside is, is a skill and creating these internal. You know, relationships is a skill and having clients go through this practice of, for instance, like I, like I do, um, I've, uh, [00:27:00] if there's a moment in my life, right.
John: Or I, um, I've started to, to, to, to teach IFS recently. And, um, the first day I went and did it, I didn't think I was going to be nervous. And right before it was like, Oh boy, something's happening. And I had a part that was really nervous about this going well and being liked by these therapists, right? And what if they don't think I know what I'm doing and all that right and it's like one hand I was surprised by that on the other hand, you know The skill quote unquote was to kind of go inside take a minute find that part hear out the concerns from that part send some Reassurance and appreciation of that part, ask if that part is willing to kind of come behind me as I teach this class or hearing out about its fears as to what if this class doesn't go well, right?
John: What if some of these people think, think that I don't know what I'm talking about, right? Could, could we handle that? Right. And, um, yeah, sorry, I'd interrupted you, but [00:28:00] no,
Dave: that's, that's, that's good. It just made me remember that, um, It's like, I think sometimes because I've been in like this attachment world and the IFS world for so long that sometimes there are just some things that are so automatic to me that I've forgotten and I, you made me think of something that just became more clear to me that.
Dave: It's inherently relational, like there's a difference in the coping skills. The relationship is, I think, what makes that effective in that I can tell my daughter who's struggling with regulation, breathe, take a breath. You're overwhelmed again. You know, has happened.
John: Yeah.
Dave: And that's very different than when I sit with her and go, are you feeling overwhelmed?
Dave: Can I help you? Yeah. [00:29:00] How about we take a breath together and she actually really likes when we play a game where I like hold up the pretend birthday cake because she's got quite an imagination. So when my logic brain is like, this is the step. This is how you breathe. Right. I've learned that, um, that doesn't work so well with her system, but she loves imagination.
Dave: So getting into that world and be like, Oh, look what I found. I found a birthday cake and there's all these candles. Can we blow them out together?
John: Well, part of the part of it is about the breathing and what that does to her nervous system. Part of it is the attunement and what that does to her nervous system.
John: Right. And, um, and, uh, I don't know what's going to happen next in life. And that is really scary. Right. Or for me and my parts, it's like, I don't know how this is going to go. Right. When I enter this zoom room with a bunch of a bunch of therapists, but we're going to get through it together. Right. Right.
John: And it's like, we, we don't want to offer [00:30:00] false promises, whether it's to our children or to our parts. Right. It's like, you know, if my daughter is like afraid that no one's going to play with her at school, it's like, I get that. That's, that's really scary. Right.
Dave: And within the realm of possibility
John: And within the realm of possibility, right.Versus how a lot of, you know, parenting goes, which is, I'm sure that's not going to happen. You'll be fine. Come on. Don't cry. Right. And, um, and on and on, we're uncomfortable with, Pain right and a lot of times even with our adult friends are you know if I had a friend that got laid off A year ago, and right there's a part of me that just wants to go.
John: Yeah, I'm sure you'd be fine You'll figure it out right? You're a smart guy, right? It's just Unintentionally invalidating his suffering right and his fear like It's really scared to be unemployed all of a sudden, right? You've gotten laid off. You got blindsided by this thing. This is a scary time for you.
John: And just like letting that be enough, right? Because there's also part of me that wants to fix it, right? Part of [00:31:00] me that wants to either, um, like not experience too much of his anxiety or his pain. And another part of me that wants to fix it. Like, well, we, you know, maybe I can help you look, you know, uh, look for jobs or whatever. Right. Um, and that's not. necessarily what, what he needs.
Dave: Yeah. And I think like the, the relationship tells you, which is like the right answer. Yeah. Because sometimes they do need the help or they, they are looking for the solution and sometimes they're looking just. To be heard and understood and, you know, have you put your arm around them and the familiarity and the relationship dictates which, which one lands, right. And which one doesn't.
John: Well, we, you know, in, in this, um, uh, in IFS work or in the unburdening sequence, this piece around witnessing and hearing the story of a part is so profound, [00:32:00] right. And just, um, ask the part, like you said, is there anything it wants you to know? And maybe that is the story of how it came to be or the story of how it became, uh, uh, so scared.
John: You know, it's like I had a client who, um, when they were very young, you know, 10 or 11 realized, well, mom is, um, is so drunk and checked out that if I don't go down the street and get groceries for us and figure this out, As an 11 year old that we're not going to eat, right? So this part takes, takes on that role of being the responsible one, because guess what she had to, right?
John: And it makes a lot of sense that that, that part took on that role at that time. And 30 years later is still, you know, very much in that role. Um, yeah.
Dave: Yeah. And that's where, um, I find in. The work that I do, like, you know, leadership consulting and things like that, where to me, it's just another extension [00:33:00] of like relationships and some people have protectors that.
Dave: Lead them into careers that are quite intense and makes them very successful and yet they're still Operating out of that fear and it's like they have that one tool and that one tool is like this is how this part Fixes everything totally. Yeah And it's like, they try to use that tool at work and guess what?
Dave: They keep getting promoted. They keep, yeah, you know, moving forward and they come home and they try to use that tool and it doesn't work there and they get really frustrated. Cause they're like, this is my comfort zone. This is where I know how to solve problems. I do it every day at work. And yet it's just, they're needing another, another tool to, to be able to equip themselves with, and to have that relationship with.
Dave: That part of them that, you [00:34:00] know, yeah, I'm sure you see this a lot where it's like that part becomes so identified with who they are. They have a hard time seeing that there's, there's a, there's some space there.
John: It's a big, big part of what I do, especially living where I live, which is San Francisco, you know, being kind of a Silicon Valley therapist. Where a lot of my clients are, um, you know, for instance, had a client where the thing that brought her therapy was anxiety and in her words, kind of this perfectionism, right? I can't tolerate when things are not perfect. And guess what? She was very successful, you know, by material measures with her career.
John: And, um, in, in doing, uh, this work with her, um, we had identified a part and the way it kind of, um, took on this role of Having to be perfect was, um, and, and what was amazing is this wasn't like a big T trauma type moment. And a lot of times they're not, it was [00:35:00] being, you know, 10 years old or whatever it was and having practiced for months for her piano recital, having missed a few notes and then on the car ride home, a mom just didn't really talk to her.
John: And she knew what that meant, right? And so part of her came online and said, well, um, we're not gonna let that happen again. So in order to, to, to be loved, right, or to not have, you know, to avoid mom withdrawing her love, I'm going to be as perfect as possible. I'm not going to miss a note ever again. And again, 20 some years later, she still hasn't missed a note, so to speak.
John: So I see, you know, uh, sometimes. Um, when people come in and there's, there's a tension to their success, there's almost like a, they're almost obligated to be so driven or to be so perfect or be so career driven, but it, it doesn't always feel genuine, right? It almost feels like it's coming from a part, right.
John: Or a fear of like, um, It feels terrifying to not be this way or to not be [00:36:00] perfect or to not go really far in my career to not become a doctor, right? It's, it's incredible how, to what degree we are driven by our parts. And I can also tell stories about how that's been my case too at times. A lot of years of my life. Yeah.
Dave: Yeah. And then oftentimes what brings them in is, you know, either total burnout or my partner says I'm judging them all the time. Yep. Like, well. You've got a part that does that. I don't, I don't mean to. It's like, yeah, I know you don't mean to and you do.
John: Yeah. Yeah. I had a client who was, um, uh, their partner had gotten kind of fed up with them and it was because they had started to keep a spreadsheet of how How many minutes their partner had spent with them and they had started to track it.
John: And so, um, and they ended up using that in a fight. I was like, by the way, I've been, you know, keeping [00:37:00] data on this cause I'm a data person at work and I do, you know, data analysis. So I'm doing this again to just drive this point home. And, um, you can imagine what that did to the. Going back to attachment, right?
John: How that fell to be reduced to a spreadsheet. But again, there's that part of this client where of course you made a spreadsheet, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave: Yeah. And it's like allowing that part to gather the data, but being able to be in relationship with that part. Cause that part's going to speak out of fear.
Dave: That part is going to speak. You know, in certainties to be able to speak for the part and just say, Hey, the fear, the fear you hold is to be alone and I can share that with my partner, we're [00:38:00] less likely to be alone, or at the very least, we're more likely to find out if this relationship is going to be reciprocal.
John: Totally. It's so much about therapy. And again, even before I came to IFS is about uncovering fears. Right. Yeah. And making those explicit and talking through, um, those, and even for our parts where we ask, um, what is the fear, right? If you're not perfect. Right. Well, someone would notice. And then what would that mean?
John: And then they would judge me. And then what would that mean? Right. Well, they would leave me. Right. Or I wouldn't be loved. Gotcha. Right. And, you know, we kind of bring that, that downward arrow technique is. Always been one of my favorites again, even before using IFS, but there's often many layers to these fears, right?
John: Which very often end up. Um, leading to, I'm afraid of not being enough. I'm afraid of being alone. I'm afraid of, um, uh, you know, being annihilated, some parts [00:39:00] will say. Um, so my very existence depends on me being perfect or pleasing people, right. Or being really chipper or whatever.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those, um, superpowers that people, people develop. It feels like a superpower. Um, and, uh, it often, you know, the thing that the part fears the most, it often creates.
John: Yeah. For some people, you know, some of my clients, it's like they call it their edge, right? Yeah. Um, like, yeah, and, and, and there's also can be hesitation on like working on that. Or if I healed that wound, right, I've been operating from that wound or that place of pain for so long.
John: What would happen if I healed it? That might not be good for my business. Right. So my, my, whatever, right. My, my academics or my achievements.
Dave: That is very often the fear. [00:40:00] What if I lose the edge? And, you know, the thing that is often the counter to that is, you know, the thing that it's hard to see at the time that the part isn't able to see is how much more energy you'll have, how much more, um, intentional you can be, you cause at the same time.
Dave: They usually Saying two things, which is I want to keep my edge and I'm burned out and I'm exhausted. I want to keep my edge, but I realize I'm not connected with the people who love me. And it's like, yeah, the edge, uh, needs to give you some space so that you can, you can do both of those things.
John: Yeah, the irony is, [00:41:00] um, a lot of times if, you know, if our drive is coming from a part and we go and help that part or unburden that part, now what?
John: Um, well now, most likely have more self energy, more access to self, and even more clarity about, Where to go from here? What do I really want in my life? Or what is success, right? Or what is leadership, right? Some people that are often, you know, leading from, from a part. Um, and, uh, Yeah, the irony is when people get more of a sense of what it's like to be more in self they They they could perhaps go further than before Depending on what further means to them right and what feels authentic
Dave: Yeah, and you know when people are able to be more self led they often enjoy their strengths a lot more [00:42:00] Um, and it's not impossible for someone to be like, you know, uh, wall street guy.
Dave: That's just, you know, really emphatic about making money and, and, and, and being successful in business. And all of a sudden they like heal their trauma and then, you know, they're just, you know, playing the guitar on the side of the street and just like, you know, just, yeah. Flipping their personality. 180. I mean, sometimes, sometimes people are awakened to that and they discover they want to do something completely different, but way more often than not, people maintain their, their same general temperament and personality and, and, and things that drive them.
Dave: They're just able to do it in a, in a more intentional way with less [00:43:00] burnout and more connection to others.
John: Totally. And, and who wouldn't want that? Um, Dave, this has been really great. Couple minutes left here. Just want to give you a chance to, to offer anything that. Any final thoughts, anything that you wanted to say?
John: And then, of course, um, a little bit more about, again, exactly how you help people through your practice and how people can reach out and get in touch with you.
Dave: Uh, yeah. Well, um, people can get in touch with me through, uh, therapywithdave@gmail.com. That's an email that they can reach me at. Uh, therapywithdave.com is my, my website. Um, some things I'm offering, um, doing some. Professional trainings for therapists that want to learn how to do direct access, um, and hone that skill. Um, that's through, um, multiplicity of the mind. Um, a friend [00:44:00] of mine, Katie, who's, uh, promoting that and hosting that, uh, training. That'll be April 1st.
Dave: I'm going to be doing some other trainings. They'll, they'll be on my website or if, uh, You want IFS consultation or to meet with me in, as a therapist, if you live in Arizona, feel free to reach out.
John: Excellent. Dave, thank you again so much for being here for your, um, for your contributions. And, um, yeah, I just really appreciate your time and, um, we'll be sure to include links to everything in the description or the show notes, wherever you're listening or watching. And, um, yeah, thanks again, Dave for, for being here.
Dave: Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
John: My pleasure. Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend.
John: You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy [00:45:00] and apply to work with me one on one at johnclarketherapy.com. See you next time.
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