How To Be Self-Led with Seth Kopald
How To Be Self-Led with Seth Kopald
In this episode, of Going Inside, I sit down with Seth Kopald, PhD - author of "Hope Merchant: A Gestalt Journey to Self-Acceptance," to delve into the transformative power of Internal Family Systems therapy (IFS) in parenting and beyond.
Key Topics Discussed:
1. Overview of Internal Family Systems (IFS):
- Seth explains the concept of IFS therapy, emphasizing the importance of recognizing and understanding the various parts within ourselves to better understand others.
2. Parenting with Empathy and Understanding:
- We explore the paradigm shift in parenting towards validating children's emotions rather than dismissing them, promoting smoother emotional processing and healthier relationships.
3. Navigating Anger and Emotional Expression:
- Seth and I discuss the complexities of anger and how acknowledging its underlying truths can lead to more authentic expression and resolution, both in parenting and personal growth.
4. Promoting Self Leadership:
- We delve into the idea of self-leadership and how embracing our various parts can lead to greater authenticity, resilience, and success in various aspects of life, from parenting to leadership roles.
5. Future Offerings and Opportunities:
- Seth shares his plans for future workshops and retreats, offering listeners the opportunity to explore IFS therapy further and engage in transformative experiences.
For more information on Seth Kopald visit: https://www.sethkopald.com/
Interview Transcript:
John: [00:00:00] Seth Kopald is a certified internal family systems practitioner. He holds a PhD in organization management with a specialization in leadership and a master's in education. Seth has been an IFS practitioner since 2012, and he is an experienced program assistant for IFS levels one, two, and three trainings.
John: He also has been on Richard Schwartz's staff for IFS retreats. You can learn more about Seth's book by going to Seth copal. com forward slash self led and find him on Instagram at self led by Seth. We'll put links to all that in the description. Seth, thank you so much for for, for doing this.
Seth: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
John: You got it. I, I've cheated a little bit and heard your story about how you came to IFS and your interviews with, with Tammy. So I've done a little of my homework, but for folks that are maybe just now hearing from you, maybe you can fill us in a [00:01:00] little bit more about who you are and how you got here. And then today we're going to be talking about your book self energy and we'll see where it takes us.
Seth: Yeah. I probably. My course getting to IFS was probably different than many folks. So I started prior to IFS, I was really into early childhood education. I was a Montessori teacher. I was working for migrant seasonal Head Start programs nationally, which is a program that serves migrant farm worker families.
Seth: And I was put in charge of not just helping them with education, but with their programs and their, even their management. So I, I went back to school and got a PhD in organization management with a specialization in leadership. During my PhD program, I ended up going through a divorce and I went to go see a therapist cause I was starting to get some anxious anxiety, I would say regarding like what's going to happen with the kids and what will happen with my relationship with them.
Seth: And just even the thought of even being with them even half time [00:02:00] was really hard for my system. And the therapist I was seeing introduced me to IFS through a book, Dick Schwartz Introduction to IFS. And I write about this in the book Self Led, that, you know, just by reading about parts, I noticed pretty quickly how I was able to integrate it and noticed that my anxiety was a part.
Seth: And I noticed I got space instantly from that part and. I didn't even realize I was on blending, but just by noticing that this idea that this could be a part of me instead of all of me really helped. And then magically I thought to myself, I wonder if this IFS stuff has a conference I could go to or learn about it more.
Seth: I looked it up and this was probably a month before the annual conference. And so that was when I was back in Chicago and I signed up, got accepted a week or two later. I show up at the conference and I feel like IFS, you know, Like, now I see, [00:03:00] like, my guides must have been with me all along. I mean, I know they are.
Seth: They were. I didn't really recognize them at the time. I felt like it was like this big opening, like a yes. Because even when I showed up at the airport I hired a shuttle. So a van was supposed to pick me up. And all of a sudden I get a text from the van driver saying, Hey, I'm so sorry. I also run a limo service.
Seth: I wasn't able to drop off the limo. Is it okay if I pick you up? And I'm not like needing a limo. Like, I'm not, like, I don't really. need that. But big white stretch limo shows up. I get inside and there's like, you know, Led Zeppelin playing, which for me was like meaningful. And it's like, wow, this is great.
Seth: And even up to that point, I used to think like someone once told me if you ever go to a crosswalk and it tells you to stop, it means you're supposed to stop and like contemplate what's happening with you. And if it says go, it means like you're in the flow and you're in the right place. So for me, that was like a message like, ah, this seems like all signs pointing to [00:04:00] yes.
Seth: And I had some beautiful experiences there, even with Dick Schwartz which maybe I'll not go into the full story. But shortly thereafter, I switched therapist, because I was realizing my therapist was very new at IFS, and I wanted to be with somebody more experienced. And then that person encouraged me to take the training.
Seth: So back in 2011, I started and graduated in 2012. I was trained by Dick and Paul Ginter and just kind of used it in the workforce and used it with schools. And after being ahead of a school for a while and realizing that wasn't the course for me I got remarried. And my wife was like, why don't you try one of your, What are your ideas?
Seth: And I, so I started opening up shop to be a practitioner and got involved with trainings and program assisting. And, and I found there was a really a sweet merge between my early childhood background as a Montessorian about really understanding the nature of children and the deep respect that Montessori [00:05:00] has for disobserving and being with, and really attuning to and following their needs, which I think we need to do with our parts.
Seth: And then my research and organization management was really geared around. Creating a safe place for people to voice an organization so they can speak up. And how do you create safety, like a climate of psychological safety? So I kind of do that with my parts and with my clients parts. So it just all seemed to fit perfectly around Creating a safe place for voice, and to deeply understand children, and that so many of our parts are young, that I feel like there's a gift somehow that I've achieved around really attuning to young children, and sensing their needs, and sensing what they need from me or from my client. So it really opened up things for me to be in IFS.
John: Yeah, I love it. There's a couple pieces that are standing out to me so far and more on a personal [00:06:00] level. One is this piece around child development, you know I have, four year old and I'm constantly thinking about child development. I'm kind of living it right with her and with her school community, her teacher things like that.
John: And also the, the kind of leadership piece or the organizational piece, you know, my, my wife, is coming out of a career in tech and learning and development, helping big companies figure out like, how do we lead? How do we develop leaders and managers in this whole piece? So a lot of overlap there. And she has been learning about IFS and just like completely falling in love with it and wanting to implement it and all these different parts of her, her, her work.
Seth: So yeah, IFS is such a wonderful thing for leaders.
John: Yeah, couple things from that were standing out to me in my life right now. One is having a four year old daughter and constantly thinking about her development.
John: You know her school, for instance the, the founder of the school, it's a forest school. So these kids I'm in San Francisco. They spend literally all day [00:08:00] outside in the woods. And there's really structure to the program. The structure is all about what the teacher says is self esteem really helping these children develop a sense of who they are and trying things out.
John: And For some parents, that would be tremendously anxiety provoking that there's no structure. There's no curriculum, right? There's no rules of like what they kind of can't or can't can't or can't do. But the sense that Children learning to trust themselves from a very early age is in a way kind of a radical idea because In my experience, so much of education is about compliance, or I should say a lot of my education, even as early as preschool was about compliance.
Seth: And when you say like learning to trust yourself, isn't that what IFS is all about? Exactly. And so a program like that, or like, I know what Montessori does that Waldorf does that and others, [00:09:00] they're really saying you have this gift already. And we're just trying to not. mess it up, basically. So when we allow the, you know, if we think of IFS, the whole reason we have burdens is because the natural qualities of children are pushed away.
Seth: And when we have schools like that, and we let the natural qualities grow and flourish, then when it's time to focus on a particular study later in life, the children have their full capacity to engage in these things. Yeah. When we, when we exile all those qualities and say you have to be, you all have to be the same and you have to be this kind of way socially and you have to be this type of way intellectually, then we start seeing kids drop off like only the ones that succeed are ones that thrive and testing and, Language and math and things like that, where there's all these [00:10:00] other intelligences that could be tapped into.
Seth: Yeah. And so I would say that are the most powerful mode, I would say, even of our, of our brain. is when our self is allowed to flourish because then we're not acting from protective mechanisms in the brain. We're actually in a state of open creativity and innovation. Yeah. Seeing
John: just kind of again, I'm just thinking about my, my daughter here her natural qualities that again are lots of self energy She's very connected to the things happening around her and the people.
John: She's very connected to nature. We were on a walk yesterday and she was the only one who stopped to literally smell the roses and found flowers that were beautiful and said, look how beautiful these are, and I wouldn't have noticed she's also very quick to forgive, which I find incredible. And. Then I turn back to myself and go, I have all these hangups about forgiving and [00:11:00] maybe I should hold a grudge.
John: Should I forgive? And if I forgive, is someone going to take advantage of me if I forgive? Right? And it's just like forgiveness to her comes so naturally and when she offers it, you can tell it's with, an open hand as much as a four year old could. So, anyway, yeah, none of this is a surprise. So wonderful.
Seth: Well, it's wonderful. And it really shows too, going back to like, you know, how we gain burdens in our protective system is based on how we're treated. And so, of course, your parts, for whatever reason, and from your experiences learned, this is what's safe and this is what's not safe. And it sounds like you're continuing to provide a space for her that her system feels safe to forgive.
Seth: Yeah. Where, like, for you and even for me, there's people, there's certain people I haven't fully forgiven yet that have hurt me that, because for my part, it's like, if we forgive them, does that mean they're going to enter my life again? Are they going to hurt me again? Yep. I totally get it. And I, [00:12:00] and you know, it's often like, as artists, we wish we could have the freedom as a child.
Seth: And I think with living. Right. If we can have that passion, the pureness and yeah, what are, what your daughter is showing you that, I mean, that's like what we're all striving to go back to. We were
John: I promise I'm not going to make this all this interview all about me, but I'm just really wanting to get your perspectives on these things because again, your background with IFS and also from childhood.
John: This child development piece is really interesting to me. And also a piece that a lot of therapists don't have. A lot of therapists go straight to working with adults and that's it. I've always loved, you know, working with kids. I used to work in the schools and have found just that connection natural.
John: But you know, last night we were in the garage and I play drums. So I was playing drums and I have been working. Really with my parts around creativity and being able to let go and play drums without a critical part of mine taking over and going, [00:13:00] you suck. That's terrible. You're not as good as this guy.
John: You should probably just stop playing drums. And then my daughter is sitting there on the floor behind me and I give her a huge blank piece of paper and she just. Starts creating and it's just she's in total state of flow and she's mixing colors and she's breaking rules, right? And she's doing things.
John: I've never seen her do and she thinks it's beautiful She tells me look how beautiful this is and I'm over here, right? Just playing a few playing half a song on drums getting completely worked up. So
Seth: yeah, here we are exactly I'm a, I'm a drummer as well. So I totally really, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great example of how she's, she has her natural qualities still.
Seth: And it just shows that you, whatever parenting you're doing, it's not just from her school. It must be helping her because I think children learn pretty quickly that it's not safe to, to let their light shine in certain environments. So [00:14:00] congratulations to whatever you're doing at home with you and your wife.
John: Yeah, I don't think so. To me, that is kind of the beginning of the end, right? That piece around shutting down their light, which is to me what a lot of the education system, the public education system that I went through what did to me around compliance, not being able to sit still, not being able to memorize things and then remember them on Friday for the test.
Seth: So, right, right. And, you know, I just want to add a little IFS theory here that, you know, as we've been taught in IFS that, you know, Our protectors, you know, they learn from the people around us that it's not safe to shine the light, so they exile the parts of us that are shining, and then when we grow up, those protectors will do the same, they'll turn towards others, and if they see people shining that light, they think that's not safe, and it might not be something conscious in our mind, it's just like we just feel the urge to shut it down.
Seth: And you'll see that in teachers, you'll see that in parents, you'll see that [00:15:00] in everywhere else in the workplace. So it's just really interesting to notice that it's almost like a piece of legacy that gets transferred down, like it's not safe to shine that way. So we're going to stop it.
John: Even in patients that I remember, you know, that teachers can have with Their students and my own teachers had with me.
John: I remember visceral moments where I was just in school and just not getting it in a teacher getting really frustrated and I could feel the frustration. And parts of me absolutely took on, you know all sorts of burdens throughout that, that process, right? I could tell this adult figure who's standing over me and it's twice my size is annoyed that I'm not getting this. Yeah.
Seth: Right. Right. Right. And, and luckily, I'm making a big assumption here, but I'm sensing your vibe, and I'm guessing you're like, a lot like me, where some people's parts will just transfer that to our children, and other [00:16:00] people's parts are so against how I've been treated, that they'll find the theory, the practice, the teaching, the books, so I'll never be that way to my children.
Seth: And that's the approach I took as well. It's like, I learned how to parent by not being parented. And I, I, I studied early childhood education, even in my 20s. I remember saying that, even if this job doesn't work out, at least I'll know how to be a dad. Like, because I don't have that example. And I didn't have, and I could say I've never actually been mothered, either.
Seth: So, for me, learning these things, like, how do you care for infants? How do you care for toddlers? Like, that's my biggest passion, for children, is infants and toddlers. And now I'm, it's getting more and more clear. As I do my own work, my deepest exiles in my, my, are mostly infants and even pre, and even in utero parts that didn't get the kind of love and holding.
Seth: So my whole [00:17:00] base of trust, which happens between birth and say one and two, wasn't formed. So I've had to go back to those parts and really help them attach to me so that I could actually step forward into the world with a lot more stability and trust. That's right, right.
John: I want to shift a little bit into talking about your book and talking about self. I was with the client this morning and you know, she was having a very difficult time accessing, Self energy is client has a a serious, a significant trauma history. And so I had her kind of turned toward a part or I just, as an exercise, I had her imagine going to going toward a kid who's on the playground and is hurt and scared and is away from the other kids and how she would approach that kid.
John: Right. And at first she was really doubtful that she could know what to do. She said, wow, I don't have kids and I haven't [00:18:00] interacted with kids. Recently, and I'm just not sure. Right. We worked with it a little more, a little more and sure enough, she knew exactly what to do, right? Well, I guess I would approach, I guess I would get down on, on, on his level and then I would approach him and here's what I would say, and I think I would just offer a hug, right?
John: And offer this reassurance. It's like, Oh, well, it seems like, you know, exactly what to do. Right. And so that was our first time really kind of talking about self through her tapping into it, right? And, and even around these kind of blocking beliefs around, I don't know how to do that. I'm not a parent.
John: And yet all of us have this, these innate qualities in us. Can you maybe tell us about your own kind of working definition of, of self and with all that is floating around out there, how do you personally think of it? What's the definition that's helped you? Hmm.
Seth: Yeah. I do, I think I've written no definition in my book, but I don't have one at the top of my head. But I would, I would say just riffing here. I think [00:19:00] self for one is our, I believe is our natural qualities, as I've said. I do believe in the fact that the C's of self energy, like being curious and compassionate, creative, all those things, and the P's, being patient, persistent is definitely great definitions of it.
Seth: But I would say there's, for me, it's, It, on the deeper level, it is like that self is part of the essence, which I believe is something larger than us, which is like the, we could call it the larger self. If somebody believes in God, I think it's connected there. If it's the universe, if it's nature. And I do believe that.
Seth: inherent in that is like almost like people say in the guide realm that it's like love like it does nothing else really exists there i mean it is pure love and up in that space and i feel like self is somehow connected to that and like an embodiment [00:20:00] of that energy and i almost like to think of it as water Like, there's water in my body, there's water in your body, it's the same water.
Seth: Then there's water in the oceans, the same water, the water in the rivers. I mean, it has other things in it, like salt, to make it an ocean. But, I think we're tapping into, like, the connectedness of all of us. And then, because I'm me, Once I embody that energy, I have a uniqueness of how I express self, which is probably through my parts that are unburdened, like we have, we have this unburdened system that allows me to talk and think and speak and feel.
Seth: And but like you said with your client, like when you helped her tap into that open hearted space, there's like knowledge and knowing how to be loved. And I think that's what self is. And [00:21:00] sometimes for me it's like really simple, like, once I help a client touch that feeling of being in self the first time, I'm like, let's make that an anchor.
Seth: Because at least if you can't get back there, you know you're not there. So if I'm irrit irritable with my kids, if I'm irritable with my partner, or irritable with somebody at work, I, at least I can say to myself, well, okay, this, I just know I'm not there yet. Yeah. And so maybe I'll pause and not speak.
Seth: Whereas, and then when I can ask my parts to separate, and I think that's what somehow what you did with your client there, they, there was enough on blending. Like when you said, you said it was a belief, like a blocking belief, but it's a part, right. That says, I can't, I don't know how to take care of children. So as that part steps back, there's a natural, like, Oh, it's in my nature to love and that's so anchor is a great word for it.
John: What I [00:22:00] told her was something pretty similar around taking, take a snapshot of this feeling right now, this state that you're in. Right. I also like to use the body a lot too.
John: So notice what happens in your body right now. Yeah, I do know that that works for me personally with all of this and my own work is the somatic piece. And for me, the first check in is just go right to the belly, right? Like even right now, my belly is like pretty open, maybe not like a hundred percent open, but like 80 percent open.
John: I've also got parts that you know, have a part that wants this interview to go well, or to like, you know, for you to enjoy the time or to not think it's a waste of your time. So there's that their self at the same time. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, and I feel that, for me, it's more of a heart check, where it's like, I can, like, I like, almost, for me, I notice I'm often not as concentration [00:23:00] of self when I'm operating above the shoulders.
Seth: So even here, I could get through this whole interview above my shoulders and say all the right words, and I notice at certain times, even when you asked about self, it was a little bit in my head, and then all of a sudden, my attention was dropping more into my heart. And when I was in my heart space, then I felt like I'm like being told what self is as I'm speaking, like I'm sensing it almost as opposed to thinking about it.
Seth: And then I do feel like my gut also can like almost, it's like almost like this, almost since my belly button wants to connect with people. But then in my belly, I can feel like where I hold parts where there's pain or they're scared parts. And so It's really interesting how everybody's body expresses it differently.
John: I have to tell you a little background about how I got here was before I came to IFS I would say I was a very kind of practical therapist and my wife, even some of the [00:24:00] I had a therapist used to work for me would give me a hard time about not being very woo woo , you know, and you know, so doing very practical type types of therapy like CBT like helping clients find a solution to their issues.
John: Right. Which, yeah, I'm just in a very different place now. I, I pretty much burned out entirely from being a therapist and having to be this guy who had solutions and ideas and could teach you, you know, how to unscramble your thinking. And I just burned out entirely and hit a wall a few years ago. It was only because of IFS and through IFS that I came back to it and went, Oh my God, I don't have to be This guy with all the answers anymore in this profound relief in this profound shift in this sense of yes, I have to know IFS and know the model and the steps and the six F's right and the unburdening sequence, but really my main responsibility.
John: Is accessing self right in the session [00:25:00] and you had said something on another episode about how sometimes things will just kind of come to you or kind of like down and out. Since I've been doing this work that has been happening to me more often where something is just literally coming to me and I'm saying it either out loud then or just.
John: you know, when I get a chance with a client, and that's been transformative for me. So to me, that's another indicator for me that I'm, yeah, doing, doing good work in that moment.
Seth: I feel that too. And I, you know, I've heard Dick Short say many times, you know, as we unburdened, we have more access. And I think it's not just access to self, but it's also access to the, to that wisdom, to guides.
Seth: And I find Like, just recently I did some really deep work, I was PAing a level one, and there's an exercise where the participants unburden the PA, and whenever I do that I seem to have like this intense healing, like, bigger than [00:26:00] almost any other venue. And, I'm like, not only am I hearing things, but I'm like even starting to see people's guides now.
Seth: And so I think the, the burdens block us from what I, what I think is, I say this in my spirituality chapter, like I think it's natural for us to see each other's guides, to be with our guides, to sense what somebody else may need in the moment and be curious about it and check with them and all that. And it seems like it's abnormal or supernatural.
Seth: I think it's the burdens that block us, and the rules that we create that our protectors carry, or the legacy that says, this isn't natural. When I think it truly is natural, and the people who tap into it are just actually at a higher level of just being human.
John: Before I came to IFS, I would think that this is a little too out there, right? And I don't anymore. And that's the kind of part of my journey of experiencing it for myself and then with clients. And I guess how to make it practical and tangible for them, right?
John: It was something I had to do for myself of like, how do I make IFS? Not too out there if you know to replace that that term and to your point like accessing self is one way to do it, then that starts to feel more and more tangible when I know what that looks and feels like for myself.
Seth: Yeah, I love that. And I think when we, at least when I'm working with clients and they touch that place. It's almost like unmistakably good, like people can sense like, wow, that how hard, you know, because oftentimes I'm sure you would say the same, like, how are you feeling now? Like, how are you doing? Right. Like, I just feel so calm.
Seth: I feel light. I [00:29:00] feel spacious. I, I just feel wonderful. And I think that maybe the times I could go. Differently, as if, I know you said you work with people with a lot of trauma and I've heard sometimes self energy doesn't feel safe to certain people because they've been hurt when they express their light and shine their light.
Seth: So that might be the one exception to when self energy doesn't feel safe. But I think most of the time it's almost like, isn't this like how you want to be? Like, can you feel it? You feel it, right? And you're like, yes, I do feel that. And I want more of this. Yeah. And so I tell people like, like my book is called self led, right?
Seth: So it's like, it's not that you're in self all the time. It means, I think my goal for people would be that you're self led in these areas of your life. as much as possible, like the more the better. And then we're, then we're kind of patient with ourselves when we're not, and we do repairs when [00:30:00] we're not, whether it's, you know, with parenting or at work or in relationships or spirituality, our connection with another being.
Seth: So, it's definitely good for any listeners to hear that it's not that self is good, parts are bad, and I know you know that already but it's good to just keep, I have to keep reminding myself of that too, that how to be patient with ourselves when we are blended. And my preferred method of unblending to get to self, It's simply to do what I call exquisite attunement, where we kind of ask the part, Can you give me just enough space for me to be here too?
Seth: A lot of times the wording is like, can you leave? Can you step back? Can you go into another room? And for me, it's like, can you give me enough space so I'm here too? And the first thing I do is look at the part or sense the part and say, this is what I'm feeling from you. Tell me [00:31:00] more or the minute I can acknowledge to the part like not just that I get it But how I get it like I get this is what I can sense like there's a part of me that was scared like oh I I brought up that thing that I said earlier is that gonna ruin the whole interview, right?
Seth: And like yeah, I could say that part. Hey, hey, we're doing that just to help the world and It'll be okay. And now that part can step back a little bit. So Like, you know, the, the love we wanna offer, the world is the love we can offer our parts. And I think the more we take time to pause and say to our parts, this is what I'm hearing.
Seth: Do I have it right? Help me understand it. If I don't, yeah, yeah. And am I representing you? Well then they builds trust in the system. So then when Seth walks into the room. They all go, Hey, it's Seth. We're cool. Let's step back. Like, I don't even have to, a lot of times I don't have to ask my parts [00:32:00] anymore to step back.
Seth: Like if I'm walking into a space where I need self energy. Yeah. Just my presence, but the parts that I've worked with, they go, Oh, he's cool. We'll trust him. But it took example after example and consistency of being with them in a certain loving way that there's like, now there's trust. Yeah.
John: You know, in a way I'm wanting to loop it back around to where we started with, with child development, because again, I'm personally, I'm just in this world of how to parent a four year old.
John: And of course, part of that means big feelings all the time and drama and conflict and anger and. You know, throwing things. So I think the traditional way, not traditional the way I was parented at times with big feelings was go to your room until you don't have big feelings anymore. Mm-Hmm.
John: Right. [00:33:00] So I'm a little kid and I'm angry. I don't know what to do and I just threw something. Right. Go to your room. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. . And deal with this painful feeling that you don't even know what it is. Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, and then you can come back to me. Yeah. A lot of. What me and my parent friends are kind of all about these days in this gentle parenting idea is paradoxically when you just track what your kid is feeling, validate that reflect that back to them, right?
John: Normalize it. They're able to let it go or work through the anger. Right? More quickly and smoothly and with less, you know, burdens than this kind of, Hey, well, you shouldn't be so angry. And these toys are for everyone, right? Why are you so angry? Right? You should just share.
Seth: So, yeah, yes, it makes so much sense. And what I heard, You know, what you said about how you were treated, it's almost like the, if you boil it down, anger is bad, or 100%. [00:34:00] And I actually had parts that thought anger was bad because the only time I saw anger was like people yelling at each other and kind of hurting each other or not safe. And nobody sat with me and processed it with me.
Seth: And what turned it around for me, Okay. You know, I, I, well, let me say this with children developmentally appropriately, I could say, oh, I see you're really angry right now, but there was a part of me saying that because I wanted you to stop being angry. It wasn't like I was really holding space. So that was really like a self like part.
Seth: And it wasn't until myself started realizing that anger is really, and I didn't put this in the book. I did say that anger is like a truth seer. And now I want to say anger is truth on fire. So when our kids are angry, when we're angry, it's because they see something that they don't like, something that's [00:35:00] happening that's unjust, something that's happening that hurt their feelings.
Seth: And this is a truth for them. And if we could say, Wow, what I'm seeing is that you're really angry. And I can tell something upset you. And there's something that bothered you. Do you want to tell me what hurt you? Or what's making you angry? And then when we reflect that back, we're like, I see your truth.
Seth: Yeah, that makes sense you're angry. I would be angry about that too. And then, cause like, I notice with me, if I get angry, I only get louder if someone's not listening. Mm hmm. Like, if you keep yelling back at me and you're not hearing my point, I will yell louder. But if you say, oh, you're trying to tell me that when I said that it hurt you, now I could go down.
Seth: Because I don't have to, like, turn up my fire even more to, to get you to understand my truth. Yeah. So, I think what you're [00:36:00] saying is exactly right, that we, we're treating our kids the way we want to treat our parts, and vice versa. Like acknowledging is everything. I was listening to a Thomas Hubel podcast the other day.
Seth: He was on a podcast and would it help to name the podcast or not? Sure, go for it. Yeah. It's What Drives You by Kevin Miller. And at 10 minutes in, he describes attunement, healthy attunement with children and parents is that the child would say this if they felt attunement. What Drives You by Kevin Miller.
Seth: I feel you, and I feel how you feel me. And that just like, I had to pause it and listen to it like ten times. Yeah, nailed it. It's a little wordy, it's like a little bit tricky, like a puzzle. But, it's like, I feel, like if I'm, you're attuned to me, I feel you. And I feel how you feel me. And I think it's that.
Seth: Like, when our children say, you feel [00:37:00] me being angry. And you're getting it. That's a soothing force of connection that allows me to be safe. And there's zero shaming. By saying, like, you know what, if you could calm down, and I understand you're angry, but, if you could lower your voice, I could hear you. It's all micro shaming.
Seth: Like it's saying, as you are, is it lovable? You need to change to be lovable. And now you're lovable, now that you're calm. And if we say like, Hey, I just totally get why you're angry. I would be angry too. Do you need more time to be angry? Cause I can sit here while you'd be angry and I can just sit here with you while you're angry.
Seth: I'm not, cause if I leave until you come back, like, or like in your case, exile you until you're done, it means you're not lovable, but you can come back when you're lovable.
John: Yeah. [00:38:00] I'm just noticing I have parts reacting to the hat and parts. wishing that you know, we had more of that resonance during moments where it mattered most. And instead my own relationship with anger was such that it seemed Like a really ugly thing that I should get rid of now at a very early age.
John: And it didn't come back at least externally until I was in grad school. And I remember I got into a fight on the phone with the girl I was dating at the time. And I just like was in my apartment alone and felt completely enraged and abandoned and scared and punched a hole in the drywall.
John: And then I was appalled, right? I was like, what kind of monster am I? I just did that right that I have that level of anger inside of me. So that unlocked a whole new chapter of my own, you know, growth and dealing with anger and what is this, right. And I'm sure that, I think that led me back to [00:39:00] therapy at that time.
John: I'm in a different way. And it's evolved so much since, since then, but for so, for decades, literally it was just off the table for me as, as an emotion.
Seth: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Yeah. And I do want, if parents are listening, I want to add one more piece. If sometimes children do need a little space, depending on the child, so sometimes I could ask a question and say, I see you're really angry, it makes sense you're angry you didn't get what you want.
Seth: It's okay for you to be angry. And do you want to be angry here? Or do you need some space, like, in your room to just be alone and gather yourself or take time? Like, what do you need? Do you want me to come with you? So then if the child wants to be in their room, it's more of a choice. Yeah. And I, and I might even add, like, and please know if you do make that choice, come back as soon as you want [00:40:00] to, like, we're, we're right here, like, if you don't want me to be with you, like, we want the message to be like, I love you no matter what you choose here.And Elfie Kahn does a great job of that in the book Unconditional Parenting.
John: Mm hmm. Yeah. That invitation to come back is. Is huge, right? Go back at at any time when you're ready, even if you still have the anchor, right?
Seth: Right. That's why I think timeouts are really damaging because we're basically saying not only are you exiled, but even if you get to be socially appropriate and there's two more minutes left.
Seth: You're still exiled. And it's like, wait, they're ready to come back. Why not just let them. And so that means for what happens in those next two minutes, if it was me, it would be like, I would start thinking about how lame my parents are for keeping me in this situation. Then I was realizing my own stuff to like being angry that I'm being exiled.
John: So it was like, like forcing kids to [00:41:00] apologize. Right. Yeah. Was kind of something of my era when I was being brought up and is something we're doing differently now and something that's even schools do do differently, right? They might work with that moment to try to teach empathy or promote empathy of, right?
John: Can you look at Billy and see, you know, that he's hurt now or see how that affected him? Versus say, you know, say, you're sorry, say, you're sorry. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And the kid's not ready yet. Right. Like you said, there's, there's an exile part happening and then, but they might say it to get out of that moment.
John: Yeah. So we have seemingly seem to have covered a lot of ground in a short period of time and I wanted to ask you so much more about your book and all this, but in a way, maybe, maybe I did, and maybe people, yeah, it's all coming through exactly. But what else do you want people to know at least for today?
John: And then in light of your book, what should they know about it? And also about the work that you do or any offerings you have right now [00:42:00] that people should know about? Well,
Seth: I would say. You know, if, if you like what we're talking about so far in this kind of gestalt of this how to be with your parts and how to be with people, I would say that the book dives into it with specific examples of how do you do this while we're parenting, you know, how do I do this at work, whether I'm a leader or I'm part of a staff.
Seth: How to be with your parts in meetings. How do you speak for your parts? You know, how does being in self lead to innovation and creativity? Is how do you support that as a leader? In the form of relationships, the relationship chapter is really around, like, how do I really get to know my parts are activated with my partner?
Seth: And how do I speak for them and even have these courageous conversations about our parts, which really helps the other, the listener soften, I mean, think of how many. Bites that partners have where it's all about like you're just I'm just trying to get you to understand me [00:43:00] I'm just trying to get you understand me But we're in such different places that it's just smashing into each other and IFS gives a beautiful model for for Communicating around our parts and what we're feeling And we have, it's not like we have to just swallow it.
Seth: We could actually release it through sharing our story about our parts. And I would say the spirituality chapter is really like who, who's praying, who's gauging into spiritual practice. Like what does it mean to be connected to something larger than us? I talked a little bit more about what is self, What is self energy?
Seth: But I would say if I boiled my book down to the core of it, it's really that, you know, parts beget parts. And we know this from all the IFS teachings. Which means if I want to have a smoother life in all these areas, the more I can be with my parts, [00:44:00] and hear them, and get their trust to allow me to lead, or my highest unburdened parts, then my life goes smoother in all these different areas.
Seth: And my parts get what they want. So my parts want my kids to behave so I could rest and I could have be seen as a good father. And when they lead, it somehow doesn't work. And when I lead, I can look back to my parts and go, how am I doing? So like your goals are being met too, right? Like they're, they're in that space you were hoping for.
Seth: Like they have reasons that I don't, they want it for me. So myself wants to be there for them, for my kids. And the same with, if I was a CEO. Or if I was a team leader, do I want my team to succeed because I look good? And why does that always rub people the wrong way? Even if I'm saying the right things.
Seth: But if I'm like, I really want to succeed because I want my team to thrive and I want us to [00:45:00] serve this purpose or meet our mission and vision, all of a sudden the same words come off with a different feeling. And it actually works. And then we can look to our parts and go, whoo, we're safe because our team is succeeding, right?
Seth: Okay, good. You know, so I just, so there's parts, we get parts and there was another key thing, but I think, I guess in general, it's just like, how do we be in the space where we're self led as much as possible? Yeah. And like for people between sessions, so if you're seeing a therapist or a practitioner, IFS is not just doing this work in these little moments. It's like I get to know these parts in my therapy sessions.
Seth: And then between sessions, I'm really noticing when they're blending with me, when I have other parts coming in. I'm, I'm continuing this relationship with what I consider a sacred being, that our parts are sacred beings. And really that's, the book is about having a relationship with your parts that way.[00:46:00]
Seth: And knowing that if I have an angry part or a dismissive part, or a part that dissociates me, that that's not who they are. That's what they're doing. It's a behavior. My part is being critical. I don't have a critic. When this part, when I help this part with what it needs, and I give it the attention it needs, it changes its behavior.
Seth: It's not criticizing anymore. So to call, even call a part a critic is almost like boxing it in. So I'd like to, you know, this deep respect for these, for our parts, and knowing that they're capable, like, parts have self, right? When I was, you know, Pick any age, if I was 5, if I was 10, if I was 11, I was a person with a self and with parts.
Seth: And if I get stuck in time, and I go back to that part, that part has self and parts. Yep. So we trust the self in the part as well. Yep. Yep. And that's what really being a Hope Merchant is all about, [00:47:00] is believing in people, believing in our parts, not just wanting them to change.
John: Wonderful. Well, Seth, I can't, I can't thank you enough. And for folks interested in the book, be sure to have links in the description and everything. And then if people want to reach out sethkopald.com and on Instagram @SelfLedBySeth and Seth, thank you so much. I'd love to have you back sometime. There's clearly many directions we could go with this.
John: I almost was too excited to. You know, hear, hear your thoughts on different areas. But thank you again. And yeah, I really appreciate it.
Seth: Thank you. And it's okay to add one last thing you asked about offerings. You know, I do see clients I'm actually thinking of broadening out more to doing workshops and like retreats.
Seth: So at some point, just keep checking my website. I might start adding places where we could meet. And we could talk and we could do retreats and so I have a couple of lined up that are mostly for [00:48:00] specific groups, but I'm looking to open more and more for the public. So if you just go ahead and follow those sites great, well, excellent stuff.
John: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Great. Well, thank you again, Seth.
Seth: Thank you so much for having me. And I had really loved hearing all the things you said as well. And I'm noticing even our glasses match. So I think, yeah, I know, right.
John: I think we're good drummers. Yeah, exactly.
Seth: Glasses, with a beard, and sensitive, like loving guys. Yeah. We’re just having a conversation.
John: Yeah, exactly. Thanks again, Seth.
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