50 Episodes of Going Inside: Reflections, Insights, and Your Questions Answered
50 Episodes of Going Inside: Reflections, Insights, and Your Questions Answered
In this milestone episode of the Going Inside Podcast, John Clarke celebrates the podcast's 50th episode by diving deep into trauma healing approaches, the versatility of Internal Family Systems (IFS), and answering listener questions. Clarke reflects on how IFS has transformed his trauma therapy practice, emphasizing its comprehensive nature in addressing somatic, cognitive, and spiritual dimensions. He discusses integrating IFS with modalities like EMDR for memory reprocessing and somatic experiencing to address nervous system regulation.
Healing through Internal Family Systems Therapy is best supported by patience, compassion, and forming deeper connections with all of your parts..
Every healing journey is different, so it’s important to specialize each individual's process by respecting a client’s space, restoring agency, and using complimentary modalities of support if necessary.
The upcoming Pathways to Self IFS course is launching in 2025, an intensive training program designed to deepen IFS skills for therapists and practitioners.
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Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] John: Welcome back to the show. Everyone today, we are celebrating 50 episodes of going inside. Pretty incredible. Apologies in advance. I'm on the move today. And so I don't have my usual setup. If you're watching on YouTube, I have a pretty unpassable green screen situation going on and I'm holding my mic in my hand.
[00:00:25] So that's just how we're rolling today. Thanks for your patience with that. I cannot believe we've made it to 50 episodes. I remember when this show was really just an idea. It was a concept. It was something I tossed around a lot before really committing to, and I'm so glad I've committed to it.
[00:00:45] Every now and then it's a couple times a week. I get a message from one of you. Just thanking me for the show or saying something you learned was really invaluable or the show inspired you to learn IFS or receive IFS. [00:01:00] And, even just hearing if this show just helped one person. It would be more than worth my time.
[00:01:07] So knowing that it's helped a lot of people is incredible to me and really furthers my life mission and purpose. On the audio version, we just hit 25, 000 downloads and on the video version on YouTube, we've hit. Many thousands more. If you didn't know that both versions exist, they do both on YouTube and the audio version.
[00:01:27] So whatever you'd like, if you're wherever you are, if you want to show some appreciation liking, subscribing and leaving a review on the show, Like on Spotify or iTunes or wherever, or leaving comments on YouTube videos really helps me keep the show going. Of course, totally for free and it'll always be free.
[00:01:48] How the show has impacted me is. It's taken my work a lot deeper in the world of trauma, EMDR, IFS, somatic work, thinking about other ways of [00:02:00] approaching trauma, thinking about it through movement and dance and creativity and Taoism and Qigong psychedelics. We've had some really amazing guests on the show covering lots of areas like this.
[00:02:13] And so if anything, this show has expanded my definition of healing. And what healing can mean. So hopefully you've had a similar experience in my world. I've continued to deepen my clinical work with my clients, as well as my work with the therapists that work at my teaching practice in San Francisco and the therapists that have reached out and done consulting with me as a result of this show.
[00:02:37] So thanks to everyone who's been a part of that journey and that being said, we are really just getting started today in order to celebrate the 50 episodes, I'm going to answer as many questions as I can from the audience. So we put this out on our email list also to our Instagram. If you're not following me there, John Clarke therapy, and we got some interesting questions, so I'm just [00:03:00] going to jump in and answer them as best I can.
[00:03:03] Thanks for submitting these questions. Number one, best advice for clinicians new to the IFS model. This is a great question. And I would say you just need to learn enough to start to either use or experience the model. The reality is the best way to learn the model is by doing it, whether that's as a practitioner and, or receiving the model, working with someone who's been formally trained in IFS, you really have to see it, to believe it, or feel it.
[00:03:36] And of course, if you're a practitioner, then the best thing you can do for your clinical work and your learning is to work with your own parts. The risk with this work and this model is, even though it's simple in theory, It's not easy to implement as my Muay Thai instructor used to say simple, but not easy, simple, but not easy.
[00:03:59] It's [00:04:00] also not easy to do it gracefully and seamlessly. You'll find that if you haven't already as a practitioner of the model. So go slow, read all the books, read the main IFS text from Dick Schwartz, the internal family systems, second edition book. That's like the textbook. And then start working with your own parts with a practitioner.
[00:04:20] That's something that I offer. If you want to reach out and work with me, you can go to the IFS Institute directory. You can find good therapists through Facebook groups, whatever and start working with your parts. The other piece of advice is go slow, go slower than you think you should go.
[00:04:36] Cause this model is powerful and potent. And if you go too fast and you bypass protectors, you'll get protector backlash, people's systems can get really unstable and you can get into deep waters. So go slower than you think you should. Question number two, how can clinicians help clients differentiate between self energy and protective parts when clients feel [00:05:00] overwhelmed by their emotions?
[00:05:01] Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna. Try to answer this. So differentiating between self energy and protective parts. The simplest answer is that parts have agendas. Self does not self is just there in the posture of unconditional love. And receiving parts into that love, protective parts have an agenda.
[00:05:25] They have a job to do. They're very busy, right? And they, when you ask them, they usually say that they got their job during a very specific moment in time, based on an experience. And in our case, talking about trauma, usually an extreme life experience. Something that was too much too fast, too soon.
[00:05:45] The thing is you can differentiate between self and parts semantically. If you've done this work enough, and if you experiment with your experience of self, you can generally feel what self feels like in the body. So for me, it's like openness. It's [00:06:00] warm. The belly is open and soft.
[00:06:02] And I feel almost like a tingly and I know I'm in self or more in self than parts, right? I think we are always a little bit blended and we need to be in order to get stuff done and stay protected and that's okay, right? It's more about it's not all self versus parts us versus them by any means It's about integration Homeostasis inside the system and being as self led as possible as much as possible But at the end of the day, you're also very human and your humanness is going to show.
[00:06:36] Number three, what strategies do you recommend for clients who intellectualize their parts rather than connecting with them emotionally? That's actually a really good question. And this happens a lot in clinical work. So when you have a client, get to know their parts, a lot of times they will be speaking on behalf of the part.
[00:06:54] And we don't want people to do that. So they're imagining if you say, you close your eyes and you connect [00:07:00] with that part, if you say, how old is that part? And then they might just imagine a seven year old and say seven. Okay. Are you guessing that the part is seven or can you slow down? Get to know the part, get the part to be aware of you.
[00:07:15] And can you ask the part how old it is? Okay. The part actually says it's four. Okay. So the part says it's four and then ask the part how old it thinks you are. And just wait until you get an answer. Just wait. So this is called going inside. It's what the podcast is called and going inside is a different way of getting information, right?
[00:07:38] So getting information in this way is more unconscious. It's automatic stuff. We'll just start coming to you. If you're in fact communicating with your parts, and if they're speaking to you and you have to have enough self energy for them to speak to you, that's the magnet. That's what opens the channel.
[00:07:56] So you can also just normalize that it's completely [00:08:00] normal to intellectualize your parts. Hey, it makes sense. So again, are you guessing how old the part is, or could you ask it? This whole model is about relating to your parts, right? Restoring internal attachment to your parts.
[00:08:14] So we never want to assume we want to go inside, make ourselves known, make self known to the parts and create that dialogue and make sure it's a real dialogue. And the more you do this, once you see clients genuinely going inside, it looks different. They're in a calm, almost sedated, meditative state. A lot of the time their eyes might be closed or open, but you can just tell they're getting information.
[00:08:38] From their parts, right? They might even be surprised by the information. Oh, he says he's four. Oh, okay. Yeah. So just notice that, great question. And sometimes protector parts just do that. They intellectualize parts because they're not ready for you to go inside. So you just have to go extra slow and honor that.
[00:08:57] Number four, how do you navigate resistance from [00:09:00] protective parts that are afraid of change or letting go of their roles in therapy? It's like any negotiation, right? You have to earn their trust. If I come in to, let's say a team or a company and someone's been doing their job for 25 years, and I come in and say, Hey, I'm taking your job away.
[00:09:17] I'm actually going to do your job. Right away. And this person has spent their entire life doing this job to protect this team or this company or this family. That's extremely unsettling and offensive, right? And disrespectful. So we just have to go slow. And the more we get to know it and go through the six Fs, really get to know the parts, fear, really witness the story of the part and how it got its job over time than just naturally, it's more open to doing something else.
[00:09:49] Or to doing nothing in the system and just resting or playing or being a kid again, or just hanging out. A lot of times that's what parts would want to do. And [00:10:00] again, the word resistance, even, I don't really care for the word resistance. There's, I like the word hesitance, as a therapist, whether a client is hesitant to drink less or to confront their partner or to leave their job or whatever in protective parts, right?
[00:10:14] Protectors are hesitant. Of changing because they haven't seen it done another way and they haven't really seen self prove them wrong. So they got to learn to trust self and you have to have a lot of self energy. For parts to willingly surrender their roles, or shift their roles even so just slow.
[00:10:31] It just takes time. It's a negotiation. There's gotta be a ton of compassion. There are a ton of love in order for parts to soften and roles to shift. So at the paradox, it's second order change by loving them and embracing the parts they are more willing to change, right? Just like someone in your life.
[00:10:52] It's also why interventions don't work, right? You go in and you bulldoze someone with an addiction and call them out. And it's hurting me and you're killing me [00:11:00] and you're killing yourself and you've spent all of our money. It just activates protectors, right? It triggers shame and it doesn't work. Does the opposite, right?
[00:11:10] Same thing with our parts. We always have to lead with love and compassion and when they're ready. They will shift and grow. Number five, how do you get the part that has been pushed small, but wants to be seen? This is like the witnessing piece of the unburdening sequence.
[00:11:26] It also happens in the six Fs. So when you just ask the part who it is and how it's different, what it wants to be called, you're seeing it in that moment, right? That's a way of it being more seen. Just imagine again, the part is a person or like a little kid, little kids and adults, right? Just need to be seen and loved as they are again, simple, but not easy.
[00:11:53] You're talking about an exile here, a part that's been pushed to small or is small, and maybe has been pushed down and down [00:12:00] once. And it wants to be seen, right? You just have to have. Tons of self energy again, you have to come in and meet that part where it is and hear its story. Sometimes you hang out on the other side of the room from that part and just say, I'm here.
[00:12:14] Let's just get used to being around one another, right? I've been gone for 20 years. Of course, it's shocking that I'm here now saying, hey, Let's get out of this cold basement. And it starts to feel like an agenda. So you just love the part and see it and acknowledge who it is and how it became this way and the pain that it's in.
[00:12:38] And then again, paradoxically, the part often wants to leave or be unburdened or come with you, and come into the embrace of self. So that's how you do it. Number six tips to work with trauma differently since learning IFS biggest changes before and after this is a huge one for me I mean the biggest piece I think is going slow I think also I [00:13:00] do probably 80 percent IFS now maybe 10% 10, 15 percent somatic experiencing, maybe 10 percent my math is already off.
[00:13:10] EMDR, I do EMDR to help tame down some of the really intense memories. When people have a lot of reactiveness and triggers, then I sometimes pull an EMDR to help their nervous system calm down a little bit and help with some of that memory reprocessing. That being said, I'm generally I'm nearly all in on IFS work combined with some somatic work.
[00:13:33] I'm going through the somatic experiencing. Official trainings now to get certified. And that's been incredible. So I believe that trauma healing is about healing our parts, being more self led, accessing self energy, bringing that to our hurt traumatized parts. And it's about renegotiating safety with the nervous system.
[00:13:52] I think you have to do both or do a couple of different things. Luckily, IFS integrates really well with lots of [00:14:00] models like. EMDR, somatic work, whatever. But that being said, I think you can generally treat most traumas with just IFS. I think IFS is a pretty darn comprehensive model. And I've never felt that way about any other model.
[00:14:16] It encompasses a lot of things, whether it's the somatic piece, the cognitive piece of the beliefs that the parts hold, right? So you have your CBT in there. There's a reprocessing that happens when you go in and unburdened apart and witness it, witness it in that trauma or in the wake of that trauma and bring it out of there.
[00:14:33] There's a spiritual component. The unburdening sequence looks a heck of a lot like shamanism, right? Something that's been around a lot longer than psychotherapy, which has been around like a hundred years, versus hundreds, thousands. So I think it's the real deal. I think there's a lot of things you have to do around the IFS though, to do it.
[00:14:55] You have to go slow. You can't bypass the client's self or the client's [00:15:00] intuition, their sense of agency, right? A lot of trauma healing is about restoring agency because agency was momentarily or chronically lost during the trauma. So we can't do that twice. You really have to honor the client system and go extra slow.
[00:15:16] So yeah, those are some thoughts, but IFS has changed everything for me in terms of how I treat trauma. Number seven, how do you help clients with aphantasia who struggle to visualize during sessions? Yeah. So I've heard through the grapevine that Dick Schwartz himself does not see his parts, right? He hears his parts.
[00:15:35] So someone with aphantasia who can't see their parts that's fine. Many ways of experiencing your parts, right? This is a way of getting information. Some people hear their parts like a voice or voices that are not necessarily DID, right? And there's still. Self there and self is aware that these are parts, right?
[00:15:57] And the personality isn't fully split and [00:16:00] fractured the way that it is in D I D. And you could, you can feel your parts semantically, and you can get information that way. Yeah, there's a lot of ways to experience your parts. There's no wrong way. And yeah, if you can't see your parts, just encourage your clients to see how they experience them in a different way, hearing or feeling or whatever, it could also be that they're frustrated. They can't see their parts. And some of that frustration further blocks the work or blocks the access to parts. So it could be a matter of self energy. So you always want to check and recheck. For self energy number eight, how to deal with transference in an IFS session when you have complex trauma or BPD wow, great question.
[00:16:42] And we could and should do an episode on this. Yeah. So dealing with transference in, in IFS terms, transference is you have a part activated that is activated by the client's parts or a part of the client, right? When it hits too close to home or a part of you is [00:17:00] feeling defensive, right? Cause the client is saying, Hey.
[00:17:03] This therapy isn't working, and what are you doing for me? And I'm paying you all this money and a part of you steps into defend or deflect or shuts down or whatever, right? And when you're defending, if you're defensive, what or who are you defending, right? A lot of our world is rooted in Freud still today.
[00:17:25] And so in Freud's terms, your ego defense is right. You're defending your ego, just like your sense of self, right? Your sense of goodness. Oh, good. Am I an IFS? That protective part would be protecting your exiles, right? I'm a therapist and my client's saying, I'm not happy with the service you've provided for this dollar amount.
[00:17:45] And I have a protective part that wants to defend or rationalize or. Explain that it's worth it or whatever, or this is how much training I've been through or whatever, right? Those are parts that are trying to help keep me protected. And keep my exiles protected. Rather [00:18:00] than I can feel and take in their feedback, feel our separateness, right?
[00:18:05] Have compassion for the parts of them that are pissed off at me or pissed at therapy or the parts of them that feel disheartened or disenfranchised. And I can try to stay in touch with my self energy. That's the thing to do. And IFS, especially when you feel your parts getting activated, it's try to connect with your self energy. Send that to parts of you that are activated. You can even ask them, let me lead, right? My IFS teacher, Derek Scott would say, you can take a fist and put it behind like your belt, basically like the small of your back and feel that and imagine inviting your parts there and asking your parts to come behind you.
[00:18:46] Will you let me lead? Will you let me lead this session? Will you let me lead this difficult conversation with my partner? Or my friend or my boss, are you willing to let me lead and self can let the parts know I'm [00:19:00] here. I'm here sometimes, especially if you have a decent relationship with your parts they'll soften and they didn't want to lead anyway.
[00:19:08] Especially if it's a seven or eight year old or 18 year old, it's cool, you got this, I'm going to go play video games or whatever. I think a lot of people would also say BPD, borderline personality disorder, has roots in complex trauma. The two always go together, right? BPD is basically just parts that are highly polarized because of the complex trauma that was usually childhood complex trauma and largely unresolved.
[00:19:34] So these really intense polarizations happen and get more and more galvanized. The further things go along a number nine, which works better for someone with BPD. EMDR or IFS? I think you could use both. And again, you could use the EMDR to help take the sting out of some of the memories, right?
[00:19:56] My opinion is EMDR is best for the [00:20:00] memory consolidation piece. If the memories are too intense, you got flashbacks, right? The memories create this flooding nervous system response. So you could use that to help. Calm the nervous system down a bit. You can use IFS to get to know these parts, especially these again, highly polarized parts.
[00:20:16] And yeah, see how far you can go with that. In this moment, the gold standard for BPD is, of course, DBT dialectical behavior therapy. That can be a good thing here too, or to integrate that or whatever, clients with BPD might need to build some of these core skills, right? Like distress tolerance and things like that.
[00:20:37] It could be a combination. If you're working with someone with BPD, most likely they're going to have parts, they're going to test the boundaries or parts that are going to lash out at you, parts that are ambivalent about feeling close to you or trusting you, their therapist. So I recommend if you're going to treat BPD that you really specialize in it and lean into it and say, this is something I want to do.
[00:20:57] This is something I'm equipped to do. And resourced to [00:21:00] do and get good supervision for it. Cause it can be intense and high risk. Number 10, my last one ought to be in more self energy when living with a narcissist. Wow. Great question. The key is to imagine and even visualize your separateness, right? You're living with this person, maybe their family or a partner, right? And they need to play out their narcissism with you. They need to wrap you in their web. And so how do you be more in your self energy? You protect and love and care for your own parts and feel your separateness and practice visualizing your separateness.
[00:21:38] You can also put out before my light, a light boundary meditation or exercise like a Qigong exercise to practice strengthening your energetic bubble every day. You can do things like that. The more you can practice your separateness, but a separateness and a bubble that is still permeable, and you can still express love [00:22:00] to that person, compassion to the parts of them.
[00:22:03] I'm not saying just go love them unconditionally or get yourself hurt or get yourself in danger. But I am saying that someone in your life or someone you love. Who can be prickly, narcissistic, borderline or whatever, then sometimes it can help if you can find some compassion for their parts. Again, paradoxically, they tend to soften versus when you go at them and try to change them.
[00:22:27] Or if you make a narcissist feel small, then their protectors tend to lash out and come back twice as hard. Very delicate matter. And these are just some thoughts. Again, this is not therapy right now. This is a podcast. This is me just giving information based on a one line question. It should go without saying, but seek out a therapist who's really good, very experienced, at least 10 years in the game and someone who has experience with narcissists or let's say partners of, or family members of narcissists.
[00:22:57] And Be careful. And if you're in an abusive [00:23:00] situation, have an exit plan, right? And start working on that with your therapist. If things get actually dangerous, make sure you know how and when you're going to get out of there and take care of yourself. Wow. What a great set of questions. Thank you guys for doing this.
[00:23:16] I'd love to do more of it. So if you're up for it, you can always send me your questions. Probably just an email is easiest. John@JohnClarkeTtherapy.com. Or on Instagram, if you follow me @JohnClarkeTherapy, just DM me your question on Instagram. I'll pass it to my producer, Shaina, who shout out has done an amazing job on the show for 50 episodes.
[00:23:38] Wow. And she does all the clips for Instagram and YouTube shorts and all that good stuff, all the content production. Scheduling guests and everything. So thank you, Shaina for making the show come alive and keeping it alive. And yeah, if I can help answer more questions, send them my way. Also we've got more demos coming out.
[00:23:59] We just released [00:24:00] another demo. We've got more demos coming and those have been really neat. So if you. Like that type of stuff. Check that out. If you're interested in being a demo participant, you can let me know as well. It's not for everyone. There's no pressure, but it is an option. You can email me, John@JohnClarketherapy.com
[00:24:16] com. And then lastly, make sure you get on our email list because we've got something really exciting. Coming up in 2025, we're going to be launching our own IFS course. It's going to be an intensive course where we meet every week and I'm going to be training folks personally on how to use and strengthen your IFS skills.
[00:24:35] That program is going to be called Pathways to Self. And it's a great chance to work with me intensively and really grow. And your IFS skills, whether you're just starting out or you're an experienced IFS practitioner you're not going to want to miss this program. So keep an eye out for that.
[00:24:52] You can get on the email list by just going to our site and downloading the free meditations that's at the top or in the footer, and that'll put you on our [00:25:00] email list. Thank you for being here. Wow. Thank you for 50 episodes. Thank you to our sponsor, Jane Chance and sponsoring us early on. If you need an EHR for your private practice, definitely hit up Jane with the link in the description.
[00:25:13] And yeah, thank you just for being here and being part of this show. If you love it, like I said, help me by subscribe, leave a review, share an episode, share your favorite episode with a friend that would really help. Go a long way too. So let's see if we can double the show in size for the next 50 episodes and beyond.
[00:25:31] So thanks again for being here and I'll see you in the next one. Take care.