Polyvagal Theory and Anxiety with Natalie Deering

Polyvagal Theory and Anxiety with Natalie Deering

In this episode of Going Inside, I sit down with Natalie Deering, an IFS therapist and wellness expert, to explore the polyvagal theory and its connection to anxiety. Natalie breaks down how understanding our nervous system responses can help us navigate anxiety, and we discuss practical tools for fostering safety and calm in our bodies.

  1. Understanding the Polyvagal Theory:

    The polyvagal theory explains how our nervous system responds to stress, anxiety, and safety cues, helping us recognize why we may feel anxious in certain situations.

  2. Fight, Flight, Freeze Responses:

    Anxiety can trigger various survival responses like fight, flight, or freeze. Learning to identify these reactions helps us become more aware of our body's needs and responses to stress.

  3. Regulating Through Breath and Connection:

    Techniques like deep breathing, grounding, and engaging in safe relationships can help regulate our nervous system, shifting us from anxiety to a state of calm.

Learn more about Natalie Deering at https://www.ndwellnessservices.com/

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Interview Transcript:

[00:00:00] Natalie: I like to think of, like, those finger traps. Where, you know, if you've got your fingers in a trap that, yeah, that finger trap, and then you try to pull them away from each other, they get stuck. But if you let your fingers relax and like move towards each other, then the trap relaxes and then you're able to have more freedom there.

[00:00:20] Natalie: And I like to think of our, yeah, I like to think of our system in the same way, where if we're trying to, you know, Ah, get away, get away, get away. We're just going to be stuck in that suffering of stuckness, rather than, yeah, let me turn towards it and ground myself in ventral or in IFS, access some self energy.

[00:00:42] John: Yeah. 

[00:00:43] Natalie: To then be able to have some curiosity or openness towards what it does. You know, the tension in the chest need to tell me. 

[00:00:53] John: Yeah. 

[00:00:54] Natalie: Because there are answers there.

[00:00:59] John: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me, trauma therapist, John Clarke, for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, Going Inside is your companion on the path to healing and self discovery.

[00:01:23] John: Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one on one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Excited to introduce my guests for today. Natalie Deering is a level two IFS trained therapist. She's also a podcaster and I'm excited to see where this conversation takes us today.

[00:01:43] John: Natalie maybe fill us in a little bit more as to who you are and how you got here. 

[00:01:47] Natalie: Yeah, thanks John for having me. I'm excited to spend some time connecting with you. Well, yeah, a little bit about me is that I am a licensed therapist and I've [00:02:00] been practicing now for I don't know Maybe 13 years Maybe 13 or 14, and I live in Northern Kentucky right by Cincinnati, Ohio, and I am level 2 trained in IFS, and I have my husband Bill, I have my son who's 4, his name is Quill, and yeah, we're We're We've lived in Kentucky.

[00:02:32] Natalie: I've lived in Kentucky my entire life, but I also love to travel. I have siblings that live in California and New Hampshire. So we're kind of spanning across the United States and I love hiking. I love being out in nature. I love connecting with other people in the wellness community. And so when I got connected with you, because you and I did a [00:03:00] collaborative event with a collection of, how many was it?

[00:03:03] Natalie: Five of us. Five of, yeah. Five. Five. Five. Pod. Five, yeah, five podcasters. You know who focus on IFS and that's how I was able to first connect with you. And I was really grateful for that. Cause I had seen you around on like my Instagram and things like that. And it's funny. Cause like I was meaning to reach out to you to connect.

[00:03:26] Natalie: And then when we had that invitation to do this collaboration, I was kind of like, Oh, perfect. Okay, great. Now I can, I can talk to John. 

[00:03:36] John: Yeah. Yeah. It worked out. It, it really is the IFS community really is. A community and a small world in that regard. And then the collection of podcasters who focus on IFS is even smaller.

[00:03:50] John: So yeah, you know, it was a group of people that. Have a ton of passion for the model and talking about it. I think a podcast is a great format for [00:04:00] that. So yeah. And I'm I'm from Virginia originally. So you know, Kentucky feels close enough to me, even though it's not like, yeah, you know, 20 minutes from home, but yeah, just being home or, you know, it, it, it reminds me of being home.

[00:04:15] John: So I'd love to hear. We talked before the show about talking more about anxiety, talking a bit about IFS, but also polyvagal therapies, therapy, or theory, sorry. Polyvagal is not something we've talked a lot about on this show, so it could be interesting to start there. Yeah. And just see where it takes us.

[00:04:33] Natalie: Yeah, sure. So, I was actually introduced to polyvagal theory. Before I knew anything about IFS, I didn't come to know about IFS until probably eight or nine years into my career as a therapist. And I actually heard about it through my yoga instructor who I was taking yoga teacher training at the time with.

[00:04:58] Natalie: And she mentioned it and it [00:05:00] kind of was like one of those things where I was like, Oh, that's interesting. And I kind of like planted a seed, but then left. And and then it was. Maybe a year or so later that a client set it again, like set it to me again in session about IFS and then it stuck from there until then I was very immersed in the world of Polyvagal Theory.

[00:05:22] Natalie: So like learning about the nervous system, learning about fascia and the body and somatics and embodiment and meditation. And so Polyvagal. For me, I, I love to incorporate it now with IFS. So I want to say that, that I now weave those two together. 

[00:05:45] John: Yeah. 

[00:05:46] Natalie: But yeah, Polyvagal Theory is something that was created by Dr.

[00:05:51] Natalie: Stephen Porges. And then later expanded upon by Deb Dana, who is another [00:06:00] clinician. And she's just written so many books. Thanks. going into polyvagal theory and making it. Very understandable in my opinion for both clinicians to understand, but also people who aren't providers but for people who just want to learn about the nervous system.

[00:06:21] Natalie: So big shout out to Deb Dana. I was able to interview her on my podcast, and that's been one of my favorite episodes just because of just the knowledge that she has. about the nervous system is, is really cool. But yeah, so polyvagal theory. In a nutshell, is basically this understanding that we have, and I'm sure most of your listeners are familiar with at least some of these terms, but we have, you know, our vagus nerve, and we have these various branches from our [00:07:00] Our nervous system, we've got the parasympathetic, which is the rest and digest.

[00:07:05] Natalie: We've got the sympathetic, which is the fight and flight. And then we have the dorsal, which is the shutdown. And so Dr. Steven Porges, like he was able to look at that and come up with this theory, which I, I kind of feel weird still calling it a theory because I feel like it's, it's, 

[00:07:28] John: A therapy. Right.

[00:07:30] John: That's probably why I said therapy earlier. I've been hearing it referred to as theory for so long, which, yeah. 

[00:07:35] Natalie: Right. Yeah. And so it's just, yes, this biological understanding about our nervous system, how we have this ventral vagal state, which is that parasympathetic space where we feel, you know, connected, grounded, calm, safe.

[00:07:53] Natalie: When something happens in the external or even in the internal that our system deems [00:08:00] as a threat, then we shift into that sympathetic fight or flight state where we either need to fight the threat. Or run away from it. And if those things don't work, if that, those things aren't even an option, maybe let's say, then our system shifts into that dorsal shutdown, which helps us basically numb and dissociate and basically kind of like prepare ourselves almost for death or extreme pain.

[00:08:32] Natalie: And we can feel this at various points throughout our day to varying degrees. It doesn't always have to be extreme levels of shut down or fight or flight. It can be these subtle experiences as well. So that's polyvagal in a nutshell. 

[00:08:53] John: Yeah, great. Yeah. It's a great starting point. Can you tell me what a polyvagal session looks like?[00:09:00] 

[00:09:01] Natalie: So the way I can tell you how. I used to do it and that was, I would do a lot of like psycho education with my clients. About the nervous system. So I created like a lot of sheets. There's a part of me that loves making sheets. I love, I love like putting information down and like a clear, concise way. I love when there can be like graphs or pictures of some kind.

[00:09:33] Natalie: So I'm looking over here cause where I'm sitting, I can see like all Folders where over the years I've collected and made these information sheets. And so, yeah, I would start off with like a discussion about like, what is the nervous system and what are maybe different areas of the brain that's also activated and connected with the nervous [00:10:00] system in terms of this.

[00:10:01] Natalie: Survival, the survival mechanism that we have built in to our bodies, which is really amazing. And I find that when we're able to have education. About this stuff, I feel like that helps bring some clarity, some understanding as opposed to maybe being blended with parts that have fear or confusion about the different states that we can be shifting in.

[00:10:38] Natalie: So that's where I do feel like having an opportunity to understand what is going on within us and what is the nervous system doing. I, I feel like that is really helpful and that it was soothing for me and my system probably in my early twenties when I first came across this. [00:11:00] 

[00:11:00] John: Well, it makes sense because You're, you're building safety and resourcing by helping people understand exactly what's happening physiologically in the experience of anxiety, panic, dissociation, right?

[00:11:13] John: Flashbacks, whatever it is, urges to drink, whatever, whatever it is something I know and part of my journey is years ago I worked under like a CBT purist and so we would do interoceptive exposure in the treatment of panic attacks, which is basically exposing people to their own sensations. So the idea is that when someone first has a panic attack, it's usually this, Oh crap moment of, Oh my gosh, something really bad is happening to me.

[00:11:43] John: Right. And I'm going to pass out or die or whatever. And they don't have a label for it. Right. But it's like someone pulled the fire alarm and there's no fire. And part of the The cyclist, they don't have a label for it. They just know it was horrible, or maybe they eventually labeled a panic attack, but then [00:12:00] they get into this cycle of avoidance.

[00:12:02] John: Right. And on one hand, you could say, well, they're avoiding heights or planes or social situations, but really they're avoiding the internal sensation of panic, the internal sensation of of their nervous system. over overreacting, right? Or false alarming, right? And so we would gradually expose them to those exact sensations in a safe and gradual way that helps them build this relationship with them that, oh, that's, that's just my body false alarming again, or my body trying to keep me safe, even though I'm just here at a work meeting or, you know, having a difficult conversation.

[00:12:38] John: With my partner or whatever it might be. 

[00:12:42] Natalie: Yeah, yeah, and I guess I'm curious to ask you like, How, how do you feel like typically people, I guess, responded to that? 

[00:12:54] John: Yeah, well, usually very well to be honest and it's still something I [00:13:00] use today if Yeah. In the case of like pretty cut and dry panic attacks, like someone is like, I had a panic attack on a plane and now I'm afraid of going on planes.

[00:13:10] John: I often do some interoceptive exposure work with them. You could just as easily do some parts work with them along the way or in conjunction or blending the two, as you mentioned before with polyvagal, but it's very effective. And by the research it's extremely effective, right? It's like people in the kind of evidence based quote unquote.

[00:13:29] John: Camps like my CBT supervisor, you know, and everything that he does is, you know, evidence based quote unquote. So it works and you have to be careful and you have to go slow and you can kind of you know, it can be reactivating to experience, experience your panic again. So on the other hand, you know, I'm, I'm about to go through the somatic experiencing training like the certification.

[00:13:54] John: process. And I love that model because it's such a gentle [00:14:00] renegotiation with the nervous system of trauma that that process that started during the trauma or the thing that process, we can help, help that process to, to complete or help the nervous system in this renegotiation of, of safety and unsafety.

[00:14:16] John: So I'm, I'm really excited to learn that model, like in its pure form. 

[00:14:22] Natalie: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because what you're describing with like inviting a client to experience maybe the symptoms connected to the panic, let's say. So in that, like that sympathetic state that is similar to like polyvagal theory, probably a polyvagal where, you know, you would invite the person to have This like ventral ventral grounding, let's say like image.

[00:14:54] Natalie: I always say we want to help the person feel like they have at least their feet in ventral. [00:15:00] So let's have a foot of one foot, two feet in ventral, meaning like a feeling of groundedness and safety to then be able to have that curiosity to then be able Go into the world of the sympathetic as well 

[00:15:20] John: right 

[00:15:21] Natalie: of that fight or flight and being able to be with that being able to be with that world of sympathetic while still feeling grounded.

[00:15:33] Natalie: That's right. In ventral. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what it Yeah. It was reminding me of that. 

[00:15:39] John: I love that. Yeah. I mean this thi this idea of Yeah. Titrating, you know, the, the, the work or the, the idea of pendulation, right? Right. The nervous system swinging in and out of states of unsafe safety and unsafety is something I talk a lot about with clients, even just having clients track their state as they're talking about something.

[00:15:57] John: Mm-Hmm. , I generally find for a lot of [00:16:00] folks in general, we are not quite aware. of what's happening inside as we talk about something, right? And so I might have a client that just sits down and starts talking about plans for the weekend that they have. And something is activating about it, right?

[00:16:16] John: And so I'll just invite them, Hey, can you, Can you slow down and notice what's happening inside as you think about the plans for the weekend? Well, it's just, I know my mom is coming and I really want it to go well and there was a time where it didn't go well and I just, you know, yeah, I am a little short of breath and I'm 

[00:16:33] Natalie: just, 

[00:16:34] John: yeah, I remember that time it didn't go well.

[00:16:35] John: Okay, so slow way down, right? And like, can you work with that? So I'm tuning into those cues. Even more than like, Oh, what's the content about? I want to hear about this story about mom, right? 

[00:16:48] Natalie: Right. Yeah, and that reminds me of the personal profile mapping in Polybagel where you encourage the person to Bring awareness [00:17:00] to the different states.

[00:17:01] John: Yeah. 

[00:17:01] Natalie: So what does it feel like for them when they're in ventral? What does it feel like when they're in sympathetic and what does it feel like when they're in dorsal and it's inviting them to look at? And to bring explicit awareness to what are the body sensations in each state, what are the feelings, what are the beliefs, you know, that what are the thoughts that might be happening there, because, yeah, we want to befriend, we want to bring this understanding to people.

[00:17:31] Natalie: What, when I am in these different states, let's say, like you said, if I'm talking about this thing that's coming up, can I bring awareness to my system shifting into those different states? Because when we have awareness of it, like explicit awareness, then that's the opportunity to actually like do something with it.

[00:17:55] Natalie: As opposed to just being stuck in it or spiraling in it. [00:18:00] So absolutely, 

[00:18:03] John: I find that just helping clients to safely and slowly go toward the sensations paradoxically helps the sensations to lesson, right? A lot of clients come to therapy because they want to, they want to get rid of a feeling. Right, get rid of anxiety, get rid of grief or whatever.

[00:18:22] John: And so as you know, as my client is talking about the weekend, if she notices in her body this tension in her chest or focusing on the part of her that's worried about this weekend, where do you find that part? Well, I find it right here in my chest. Can you just go toward it with your hands and just be with it and see what that's like for the two of you?

[00:18:42] Natalie: And 

[00:18:42] John: maybe then the part starts talking. You know, I'll say like, you know, if you're, if your hands were ears, can you just listen for a second and see what you get? 

[00:18:53] Natalie: Exactly. 

[00:18:55] John: I like to think. She might hear something. Yeah. 

[00:18:57] Natalie: Yeah. I like to think of like those finger [00:19:00] traps. Where, you know, if you've got your fingers in a trap that, yeah, that finger trap, and then you try to pull them away from each other, they get stuck.

[00:19:09] Natalie: But if you let your fingers relax and like move towards each other, then the trap relaxes and then you're able to. You know, have more freedom there. And I like to think of our, yeah, I like to think of our system in the same way, where if we're trying to get away, get away, get away, we're just going to be stuck in that suffering of stuckness rather than, yeah, let me turn towards it.

[00:19:36] Natalie: And ground myself in ventral or an IFS, access some self energy to then be able to have some curiosity or openness towards what it does the tension, you know, the tension in the chest need to tell me. 

[00:19:56] John: Yeah, 

[00:19:57] Natalie: because there are answers there and it's [00:20:00] funny, you know, you bring up that one specifically because that's my body's go to is like chest tension and tightness and actually a couple weeks ago I had been feeling really, you know, just grounded and not a lot of anxiety activation in that physical way, but then I I started feeling that chest tightness and I was like, Oh, I could, I could immediately tell a part of me being like, Oh no, not this again, this is annoying.

[00:20:32] Natalie: Or we don't like this. We're scared of this. And I was able to be like, okay, I understand. All right. Just. Can you just soften with that for a bit? And let me just turn towards this. Cause I, I want to know what's going on here. Like it's activating for some sort of reason. And so I was able to like sit down on my meditation cushion.

[00:20:53] Natalie: And like turn inside, ground myself, access some self energy. I was doing some breathing and some [00:21:00] movement first, and I was able to turn towards that, that chest tension. And it was interesting because what came forward was something, it was activation connected to an Instagram post that I had posted earlier that day.

[00:21:18] Natalie: And parts of me were fearful of. other people that were involved or connected with that post being mad at me. 

[00:21:28] John: Yeah. 

[00:21:29] Natalie: Or disappointed at me, you know, which goes down the line of feeling abandoned and rejected and all of that kind of more wounded energy stuff. And it was like, once I was able to have some clarity with that, I was then able to breathe like, Oh, okay.

[00:21:49] Natalie: I get that now. Like that makes sense. And then able to then ask those parts who had those fears of like, okay, so what do you need right now for me [00:22:00] in order to feel safer with this? Like, do you want me to contact these people or do you, and you know, so then it, I didn't have to do any of that stuff. Like eventually that part that was creating that chest activation was able to soften.

[00:22:17] Natalie: I think just based on me, having that turning towards, 

[00:22:21] John: yeah, 

[00:22:22] Natalie: with that curiosity and that openness to hear it and to not judge its fears or anything like that. But yeah, it's so fascinating. That's where I love somatics. Like somatic experiencing, because it's like, if we can just pause and turn towards these sensations, there's a message there, 

[00:22:45] John: there's a message.

[00:22:47] John: It's beautiful. A lot of clients come in with this sense of like, why can't I just calm down, or perhaps for a lot of us, where we learned that is being upset as a child and being told, I [00:23:00] Just just calm down right or stop worrying or don't be ridiculous or in your case with the Instagram post I'm sure no one's mad at you.

[00:23:09] John: I don't know that. Yeah Well intended well intending parts that want to reassure But then end up minimizing right and it doesn't feel good 

[00:23:19] Natalie: Right 

[00:23:20] John: doesn't feel good at all and that's such a different energy than this going toward and being with part Mm hmm. What would it be like just to be with that part in your chest that's worried about the Instagram posts and how it landed with certain people?

[00:23:34] Natalie: Yeah. Sometimes that's 

[00:23:35] John: more than enough, right? Exactly. That being with and that witnessing. 

[00:23:40] Natalie: Yeah. Cause I didn't have to, I, you know, I didn't need to take down the post. It was, it was, that, that part was fine. It felt softer and calmer, like you're saying, like with me just turning towards it and, and hearing what it had to share.[00:24:00] 

[00:24:00] Natalie: So yeah, it, it, it's having that awareness that we were saying that explicit awareness of. What are the different shifts that I feel at various points? And Deb Dana talks about, she's like, the goal here is not to be in ventral all the time. She's like, that's not possible, number one, but it's also not helpful for our survival.

[00:24:23] Natalie: It's being able to be flexible and to be able to shift in and through, you know, these various states while knowing we have a foot in ventral. Yeah. And not getting stuck in the sympathetic, not getting stuck in the dorsal, that our nervous system, our system just knows its way back. 

[00:24:50] John: That's right. To 

[00:24:50] Natalie: ventral.

[00:24:51] John: That's beautiful. The, the Instagram thing is, is is interesting because I think it's emblematic of the larger, [00:25:00] Societal moment. We're in of living a very digital life. And in the case of this Instagram thing there's this sense of like, I don't know how people are reacting or perceiving me. And there's something naturally very activating about that.

[00:25:14] John: Same thing of like getting an email that was just short and two sentences and parts of me going, Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh my gosh, I'm in trouble, right? You know, I like, Oh my gosh, I'm in trouble and they're going to leave me. Then I'm going to have no one and I'm going to have no clients and then no money and I'll be homeless tomorrow.

[00:25:32] John: And part of it is like when, when, when parts of us can't. Further check that out and get that information. Some, some of our parts fill in the information, right? And from a nervous system perspective, our nervous systems are ready and primed, or maybe have been historically primed to get ready. For something, right?

[00:25:53] John: Someone leaving me or being annoyed or thinking I'm too much, right? And so this, our core wounding is just, [00:26:00] it's always just right there, I find, right? Yeah. And especially when we're not sure, we're not looking at the other person and going do I get a sense right now when I'm looking at Natalie that Natalie's mad at me?

[00:26:12] John: Right. I don't have any of those cues right now. Like she's listening. She's nodding. She's very kind. It's like, that's good. I'm good with that. But in another interaction where maybe I'm missing some information, I have parts that they fill in the rest of the, they fill in the blanks. 

[00:26:30] Natalie: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that's so true, right?

[00:26:33] Natalie: I mean, we are living in this technology, digital age with texting and social media and. We aren't seeing people's faces. We aren't hearing their tone of voice. And so absolutely we can have, yeah, these parts that like you're saying, fill in the blanks with these stories and those stories are going to be directly impacted and influenced by our past, [00:27:00] by the wounds that we have and the burdened beliefs that we have about ourselves and the world.

[00:27:06] Natalie: And yeah, I mean, there's so, there's many layers to it. Yeah. And that's why like there isn't a way to just say like, Oh, well, this is going to, when you're anxious, it's going to feel like this to you. Oh, it's going to feel differently to everybody. And they're, I mean, there's so many different types of anxious symptoms that, that someone can have.

[00:27:31] Natalie: And there's different levels of the energy that those symptoms can have within someone. And there's no way to. To say to someone else, like, this is, oh, I'm sure that's overwhelming for you. Well, that might not be for that person, but it might be for you. I don't know. It's yeah. It's going to be very. It's very just independently based on each [00:28:00] of our bodies and our histories and 

[00:28:04] John: our 

[00:28:05] Natalie: family line and how much one believes in potentially even like ancestral family.

[00:28:12] Natalie: Lineage impacts and even maybe like past life, you know, potential impacts like there's a lot, there's 

[00:28:22] John: a lot, there's a lot of emphasis on, again, controlling anxiety and a lot of even techniques and therapy that focus on helping people calm down, which on the surface sounds good. Someone comes into your office really anxious and.

[00:28:38] John: You know, the therapist tries to help them calm down. You know, I help teach IFS at stepping stones. Derek Scott was my first teacher. And one thing that I find with a lot of the, the practice sessions we do where a therapist gets to try IFS with a client or another practitioner who gets to be the client is sometimes the client will have a lot of activation right from the beginning of the session, I'm [00:29:00] nervous about this or something just happened right before starting class or whatever.

[00:29:04] John: And the therapist will do. We'll basically close that trailhead unintentionally by going, okay, all right. So you're anxious, you know, or something happened for class. Let's just, let's just breathe. Can you just breathe? Really just slow, slow down and breathe and breathe and breathe. And, I might have done something similar at some point before IFS before seeing that as a trailhead, right?

[00:29:29] John: That's the inroad to, can you go toward the part of you that is scared or upset or devastated, or you just got to fight with your partner and they said they threatened to leave or whatever it is. It's like, I don't want to shut any of that down to me. That's where the work is. So we go toward that. But how do you, I mean, how do you see it or even blending into IFS?

[00:29:51] Natalie: I'm glad you bring this up because this is something that was awakening for me, came to my [00:30:00] awareness as I started doing my own personal parts work and realizing that there was like a manager part within me that before I had learned about IFS, I was very, yeah, there was this manager within me that when a client would come in, I, they'd be anxious and I'd be like, this part would come in with like, Oh, here are all of these tools.

[00:30:26] Natalie: Here are these techniques. Let's go through these so that. I can help calm this activation right now. And again, came from such a positive intention of wanting to help that individual feel that, that foot and ventral again. But like you're saying, it was then closing that trailhead to, well, why were they anxious and what is that connected to in the first place?

[00:30:55] Natalie: So as I started to learn more about that, About IFS and [00:31:00] now where I'm at now is, you know, so let's say a client comes in my office and they're super activated with anxiety. Typically, my around, like my first ish question might be something like, okay, like, does it feel okay? To be with that right now. Like, does it feel okay to be with this level of activation?

[00:31:20] Natalie: Because if I'm going to try to invite the person to turn towards the activation, but their system is so overwhelmed by it, then that's not going to work. And it may even then lead to more activation. So I'll ask that question of like, does it feel okay to be with what is here right now? And if the answer is.

[00:31:39] Natalie: No, then that's where I might then slow it down and invite them to engage in some sort of grounding technique of like, okay, well, maybe let's just take a minute to do some breaths. 

[00:31:56] John: Yeah. And, 

[00:31:56] Natalie: but then, but then I'll also use language of parts now too. [00:32:00] So I'll be like, Okay. So maybe invite the act, the parts connected to the activation to breathe with you.

[00:32:08] Natalie: So I'll invite, yeah. So like I'll lead them through a breathing, but I'll be asking the parts within them to breathe with the breath of the client and like maybe invite like some more spaciousness, you know, with the client, with that energy and to invite the parts to just notice how that feels, that this is not pushing them away, but this is An invitation for them to actually connect with the client with more clarity, because if they're overwhelming the client system, then they're not going to be able to connect with it.

[00:32:43] Natalie: So, I find that that 

[00:32:45] John: is Yeah. 

[00:32:46] Natalie: Yeah, usually very helpful. And typically the person will Let me know of like, okay. Yes. Like I'm feeling there's a softening there. Okay. I feel, I feel comfortable. I feel safe enough to turn towards it now. [00:33:00] And it's like, okay, great. Now we can turn towards. The parts connected to that activation without it leading to other parts, swooping in with shutdown or panic or, you know, whatever it might be, but yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up because getting to know that part of me.

[00:33:21] Natalie: That was very managerial in that way of like, Oh, here's all these techniques. And here's all these sheets that I've created, like all of these tools and everything, it's like the tools aren't bad when used in a way that is. Accessing some self energy to then turn towards the part. It's a game changer.

[00:33:46] Natalie: It's just, if the intention is to use those tools to avoid completely, then it's not, that's right. It's not gonna help. 

[00:33:54] John: That's a great way of differentiating Right. When, when using those tools to just help people [00:34:00] avoid completely. Right. To basically never go toward the wound or heal the wound. Or help, actually help the part.

[00:34:07] John: That's when it can become almost like an avoidance strategy, right? Same thing for my client who has panic attacks and whenever they feel them coming on, they take their Xanax they have two glasses of wine, whatever. It goes down and they're like, whew, okay, I survived that one, right? Yeah. Which is a really common way to kind of get by or just to kind of evade these panic attacks, right?

[00:34:31] John: And evade what's happening inside. So yeah, I mean, basically what you're seeing, If they is offering them a little and blending right by coming in and connecting with the breath bring bringing along clients or parts can breathe with me or like sending the breath to the client. These are really neat ideas.

[00:34:52] John: And then. You the work might be more accessible, right? You can actually do the work because we have to have [00:35:00] something percentage of self to do the work. 

[00:35:04] Natalie: That's exactly right Yeah, so now I that's that's how I look at it now instead of giving someone tools and techniques to avoid Now I'm offering these tools and techniques to help them access self energy to then be able to turn towards the parts 

[00:35:23] John: It's awesome.

[00:35:24] John: I am. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this experience. I have I have seen many, many therapists in my life and I consider it an essential part of our training. I take it very, very seriously. And I've seen many types of therapists as part of my personal journey and part of my training. Right. I generally don't ask clients to do anything that I haven't gone through myself.

[00:35:47] John: I find that to be very important. And I, I, Worked with a therapist who, at least to her description, used polyvagal theory therapy. [00:36:00] This was my first time living in San Francisco. I had been through some capital T trauma stuff and I would go to her house, which is where her office was. Granted She was also very old school toward, toward like retirement age, but part of how she would work with me was on a table.

[00:36:19] John: She was a therapist, like an LMFT, but she would work with me on a, on a table. You already look confused. So I'm like, was this, was this crazy? 

[00:36:28] Natalie: I'm like, hmm, interesting. Okay. Tell me more. 

[00:36:31] John: So here's what she did is I wouldn't always be on the table, but just sometimes. I would talk on the couch. Also, the sessions were unlimited time.

[00:36:39] John: If it took 35 minutes to get somewhere, then that would be the end of the session. If it took two and a half hours, that'd be the end of the session. I would walk out and some poor next client would just be sitting there, you know, very, very unique. She was eccentric. But I also think very fondly of her.

[00:36:58] John: When I would. [00:37:00] Access more of the trauma or the memories or the activation, she would usually invite me onto the table and she would basically have her hands like under a sheet underneath me and be working with different parts of my body, but really just like holding her hands there. And she would talk about diaphragms, which maybe you can expand more on.

[00:37:19] John: I remember it. Working and being extremely powerful and she was helping me and my nervous system again negotiating these states And I remember it being very intense. I wasn't necessarily like making great cognitive Realizations, which didn't feel like the point, which was interesting. So at the time I was literally a CBT therapist.

[00:37:42] John: So here I am on a table, like just crying or releasing or being pretty non verbal and she's not saying much. So to this day, I'm like, what do you think that was? 

[00:37:52] Natalie: I think that's, and you felt safe with that. It sounds like correct. Okay, good. I didn't. That's great. Yeah. [00:38:00] Yeah. I, I love, I love when like things can weave in multiple modalities and it sounds like she was weaving in obviously touch and energy work perhaps.

[00:38:14] Natalie: Yeah. And I, I personally love that. I mean, I Me as a professional, I'm not, you know, I don't, I don't do that per se, but I'm all for receiving that myself, you know, so what you're describing, I'm like, oh, that sounds so nice. I would totally be down for that. Yeah. And, and I, I love I, I, I'm a big believer in.

[00:38:38] Natalie: Basically, if something works for you, great. Like, I'm not here to tell you that something's not going to, yeah. Like, I'm not going to be like, that's not real. Like I'm never going to say that to someone because if it feels If it feels great and it feels helpful, beautiful. I love it. 

[00:38:54] John: That's right. 

[00:38:55] Natalie: So, you know, it reminds, as you were describing that, the vision that I got was [00:39:00] when I was in yoga teacher training, I was really drawn towards restorative yoga more so than the, you know, vinyasa, like really kind of more hot and sweaty movement, you know, type yoga.

[00:39:14] Natalie: I, when it was restorative yoga training weekend, I was like, yes, this is my thing. In that training experience, what I felt really drawn towards was, you know, we would invite participants to get into a restorative pose. And for the listeners who don't know, a restorative yoga is basically where, you know, you get into a supported position, usually using a lot of props, yoga blocks, blankets, bolsters.

[00:39:44] Natalie: Straps even, and you just, you're in that position for an extended period of time, five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, it just depends. And what I would invite when I was [00:40:00] leading, when it was my turn to lead in the training, I would invite the participants to get into a restorative pose. And then with their permission, I would go to each person and I would just.

[00:40:15] Natalie: Have this sense of I would usually like stand or squat like next to them or behind them Even at their feet and I would invite like a gentle touch on various points of their body depending on what I was noticing. So maybe it was like resting my hands, like on their temples or on the back of their head or on their forehead, on their chest on their feet, on their hands, sometimes on their belly.

[00:40:47] Natalie: And the feedback that I received when I invited that was when you, when you put your hand there and again, it was consensual and it was safe. [00:41:00] They reported feeling. a shift in their nervous system. And, and Deb Dana talks about that too, in polyvagal theory, where she talks about co regulation as a big piece to nervous system, flexibility and healing.

[00:41:19] Natalie: And that co regulation being more so with Human to human, but she also talks about how it can be like human to nature and human to animals and, and things like that. But when it can be with another human, that's where it can be really healing to our nervous system. And with that co regulation, like you were saying before, it's like eye contact facial expressions, body language, and also connection through touch, our own touch.

[00:41:51] Natalie: But also safe touch from another person. 

[00:41:54] John: Yeah. 

[00:41:54] Natalie: And how important that is, you know, that's why one [00:42:00] of our biggest punishments in our country and like the prison system is isolation because that's torturous, 

[00:42:09] John: it's 

[00:42:09] Natalie: torturous to our, to our, 

[00:42:11] John: Yeah. Your, your DNA literally starts to unravel. 

[00:42:14] Natalie: Yeah. Oh, you know, it's, it's just not what we, it's not what we need.

[00:42:20] Natalie: We need. That, that safe connection. So it makes sense to me that because you felt safe with this provider with her and She was able to, to connect with you with touch and energy that it sounds like that felt like it was doing something for your nervous system. 

[00:42:43] John: It was, and she also was explaining to me what she was doing, which is another great way to create safety.

[00:42:48] John: I, as a therapist, I intentionally don't have a lot of cards up my sleeve. Or whatever tricks up my sleeve and the therapists I teach at my group practice, I encourage them to do the same. That's a [00:43:00] great way to build trust, especially with our, with clients that have a trauma history. This piece around touch, you know, I think we're, we're already running out of time and I think we're probably just scratching the surface with what we have in common.

[00:43:11] John: But part of my journey has been Well, actually just last weekend completed my Reiki level two training, practitioner training. And although right now all my work with clients is virtual I have a lot of ideas and wonderings and excitement around how these things could be integrated or for, At one point, my client who was having the panic attacks and was actually the one who will take the Xanax and the wine as a way to just kill it.

[00:43:38] John: One day after my first Reiki training, we're sitting there across from one another and the panic was starting to set in. And I had him see if he could just. Kind of go toward it. Right. And be with that sensation. But then if he were to just see it as energy or like excess energy in his chest, I said, what, what if you could just move it [00:44:00] down like an inch and he was like, yeah, I was like, I can do that.

[00:44:05] John: And he like did it. It was like, what if you could then move it up an inch? 

[00:44:08] Natalie: Yeah. 

[00:44:09] John: It's like, oh yeah, I can do that. Like, what if you move it down an inch? It's like, yeah, that kind of, I guess I kind of can do that. A couple of things, right. Gave him a new sense of agency and curiosity. And the panic was less demonized as like this thing I have to be constantly running from.

[00:44:29] John: And if it's all just energy, which again, this is like a can of worms potentially, then we can kind of work with it a bit. Right. I also think there's parallels between self energy and Reiki or Chi or Prana, all of these. So if we could do an episode on that, maybe we will. 

[00:44:47] Natalie: I was gonna say, I was like, I, I got to interview my friend Christine Kiesinger, who's a Reiki master and she's also trained in IFS.

[00:44:54] Natalie: And so we did an episode on how Reiki in connection to self [00:45:00] energy and I, I, I love Reiki. I just started seeing my own Reiki. person. And it's again, it's just kind of, it just makes sense to me. It makes sense that, yeah, we have all these, we are made of energy and matter and particle and waves and all of this stuff.

[00:45:22] Natalie: And I mean, I feel like there's so much that we don't yet. Understand that we have capable within us. So I think that's really cool. Your invitation with your client to invite them to turn towards that. Maybe that panic within and to invite them to notice. Yeah. Can you shift that energy down? Can you shift that up?

[00:45:43] Natalie: Like, and it sounds like the person was like, yeah, I can. And how cool is that? How cool is that? So I think it's amazing. 

[00:45:54] John: You know, my, my therapist in San Francisco integrating like touch with therapy again, part of it, it worked in [00:46:00] very much was like a consensual thing within the therapy or in her informed consent.

[00:46:04] John: And you know, she was a 70 year old woman and I'm, you know, like there was kind of less strings attached, I think, to it in terms of her using touch. But. Yeah, I, I think bringing it back to like how we got here, which is if trauma is not a, a cognitive process, then the healing probably isn't much of a cognitive process, right?

[00:46:28] John: You don't think your way into trauma, you're probably not going to think your way out of it. And so the more I do this work and even the more I do IFS, I do it very somatically, right? And, and just see that the body, we have a long way to go with integrating the body into psychotherapy, especially because.

[00:46:45] John: The, the, you know The, the model, the world of psychotherapy was rooted in psychoanalysis and having these extremely heady, you know, approaches to thinking about why you're so messed up, right? You've got these unconscious, you know you know, [00:47:00] sexual and violent urges and we got to work through those.

[00:47:03] John: And the therapist sits there collecting data on you to, Come in with some grand interpretation that hopefully blows your mind and he'll like that. I think about that a lot. Cause it's like, that wasn't that long ago. 

[00:47:15] Natalie: Oh, I know that 

[00:47:16] John: that was like the start of what you and I do as therapists today. Right.

[00:47:20] John: Or even like now I'm on the table with my client or now I'm like breaking into my work or just experimenting with it. It's like, we've both come a long way and we have a long way to go. 

[00:47:29] Natalie: Yes. Oh yeah. And I think it's so interesting, you know, when I meet other, you know, Clinicians and who are trained in therapy and they don't know about IFS and then they know that I'm IFS and like, Oh, what is that?

[00:47:42] Natalie: And I tell them what it is and I give them a little bit more about it. And it's interesting to see their facial expressions and like the parts of them, it's always usually like a therapy thinker analyzer part. That's like, okay, so, so it, cause yeah, I think we've been [00:48:00] conditioned. To in the psychology world to be that therapist that like you just described is like giving the client these grand interpretations and here is your answer and you know, here's the story of your life and 

[00:48:17] John: yeah, 

[00:48:17] Natalie: and I think then there's also a lot of because of that that's portrayed in media and All around us in our culture, we then have clients coming in, expecting that, and then it can be this interesting offering to be like, well, what if we try it this way?

[00:48:37] Natalie: And I think it's great. I am a huge fan of parts work and also weaving in these other. Ways of healing. And I think it's, it's powerful and empowering. 

[00:48:53] John: Very empowering. Yeah. I mean, we, we didn't even talk about that part, but it's, it's huge. Yeah. Client's [00:49:00] agency and helping them tap into what's already within this, this healing, this well of, you know, healing energy within Somehow we're out of time, Natalie.

[00:49:11] John: I'm so grateful I got to talk with you today. And I find this is how it goes on my show. I don't know about your show, but like 49 minutes into it, we're like hitting the good stuff and it's like time to go. Cause no one does in the podcast over an hour for some reason, maybe I will. So but that being said, we'll have to do it again.

[00:49:29] John: And for folks wanting to learn more about you and your work and your podcast, can you just plug all that stuff and then we'll wrap up. 

[00:49:35] Natalie: Yeah. Thanks, John. Yeah. This has been great. I feel like, yeah, we could talk for a couple more hours and keep diving into this stuff, but yeah, people can go to my website, which is N D wellness services.

[00:49:49] Natalie: com. And from there, there's a contact button. If you want to connect with me, you can also go to Instagram at Natalie [00:50:00] and yeah, I'd, I'd love to connect with you all and see how. We can work with each other potentially. And also my podcast, it's called that wellness podcast with Natalie Deering. IFS with a twist.

[00:50:16] Natalie: It's a long title, but you can find that on Spotify, Apple, anywhere podcasts are. And you can also connect to that through my website as well. So yeah, definitely reach out and check out the podcast. 

[00:50:30] John: Yeah. I love it. We'll put links to all that in the description. And Yeah. Thank you again, Natalie, for doing this.

[00:50:36] Natalie: Thank you, John. 

[00:50:36] John: Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.

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Movement as Medicine: Qi Gong, Dance, and Trauma with Elia Mrak