Loving Your Inner Critic with IFS Therapy ft. Christine Dixon
Loving Your Inner Critic with Christine Dixon
In this episode, Christine Dixon shares her journey of healing and self-discovery through Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy. She discusses the profound impact of IFS in understanding and integrating her inner world, addressing trauma, and fostering self-compassion.
Key Topics Discussed:
1. Introduction to Internal Family Systems (IFS):
- Christine provides insights into the IFS model and its role in her personal healing journey.
2. Navigating the Inner World:
- The conversation delves into Christine's experience with different parts of herself, including protectors, exiles, and managers, and the importance of acknowledging and understanding them.
3. Working with Inner Critics:
- Christine shares her exploration of inner critics, addressing their underlying intentions, and the transformative power of self-compassion in dealing with critical inner voices.
4. Unveiling Trauma and Protective Parts:
- The discussion explores Christine's encounters with traumatic memories and the protective parts that emerged, highlighting the delicate process of approaching these aspects with compassion and curiosity.
5. Facilitating Healing with IFS:
- Christine emphasizes the significance of IFS in creating a supportive inner environment, allowing for the healing of wounds and fostering a deeper connection with oneself.
For more information about Christine Dixon and resources related to Internal Family Systems, visit The Ordinary Sacred (https://theordinarysacred.com/).
Interview transcript:
[00:00:00] John: This is Going Inside, healing trauma from the inside out. Hosted by me, licensed trauma therapist, John Clark. Going Inside is a weekly podcast on a mission to help you heal from trauma and connect with your authentic self. Tune in for enlightening guests, interviews, immersive solo deep dives, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations.
[00:00:27] John: Follow me on socials, at JohnClarkTherapy on Instagram. Tik TOK and YouTube and apply to work with me one on one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Christine Dixon is an educational therapist for over 20 years. She became a radical pragmatic, pragmatist testing out various healing methods to help with her own trauma.
[00:00:51] John: When she discovered IFS, it felt as if her whole life had led to this modality. She's now an IFS educator and group facilitator [00:01:00] following her fascination and inviting others to come along. I almost made it through that without stuttering or fumbling, but, we're human here, right? Thanks for doing this, Christine.
[00:01:11] John: You know, the way I came across you was, following your Instagram and all of the really. Great content you put out there. Even these, especially these little hand drawn, things that you do with parts and kind of illustrating parts. I've found so neat and useful stick figures. Yeah. I'm a big, big fan of those.
[00:01:32] John: But yeah, how are you doing? Thank you again for coming on the show. And, maybe you could elaborate a little on your kind of bio there and how you, how you got here and what you're up to now and in the realm of IFS and trauma and all those things.
[00:01:47] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of, my trauma was mainly, in childhood with religious trauma, some neglect, some [00:02:00] things like that.
[00:02:01] Christine: And then, but then I ended up also up in an abusive marriage and was in that for 13 years. There was a lot of, physical, emotional, mental, sexual abuse, all of it. And, once I finally had the courage to leave, my first husband died by suicide. And so that was another big trauma later. I had trauma show up in my body and was hospitalized repeatedly.
[00:02:29] Christine: Doctors didn't know what was happening. Right? And then, finally realized that my trauma was kind of manifesting in my body. Wow. This was once I was actually safe in a safe environment, then it could start expressing itself. And so I was very eager to find some help for myself. Yeah. And so that's when I started.
[00:02:57] John: Go ahead. Yeah. No, I just, a comment, [00:03:00] you know, is as you're, you know, offering this, this kind of synopsis of. Of what's happened in the trauma that you've been through. I also don't see a lot of like flooding happening right now or nervous system activation unless you're just hiding it super well. So clearly there's a story there behind the work you've done working through this trauma and maybe still.
[00:03:22] John: Doing work, integrating, helping your parts and all that. So I'm so curious about that because sometimes I'll see my clients that come in and just as they start their story, even the cliff notes version, there's this nervous system activation or there's a jitteriness, right? And attention that kind of happens.
[00:03:40] John: And that's often a cue for me that. Perhaps there's more work to be done there, right? Or when people are wanting to know, like, how unresolved is my trauma or how much work do I need? How much, you know, am I kind of over this quote unquote, as some people, clients will say, and, yeah, just making that comment.
[00:03:59] John: Yeah.
[00:03:59] Christine: You know, [00:04:00] it's, it's really fascinating. I'll, I'll be transparent before I come on anything like this or even the groups that I lead or clients that I meet with. I meet with my system for about a half an hour beforehand, and I say, who's here, who has any fear, any anxiety, and what is it, right? And they'll kind of be some chatter around, oh, it's fine.
[00:04:24] Christine: We're fine. And, but then somatically there will be some, some response and I'll go. So even before this, I went and I said, who's here and somatically there was a little response and I said, oh, how old are you? And the response came three, five, and ten. So there were several and they said, Oh, what are you afraid of?
[00:04:44] Christine: And they said, I'm afraid of just being blindsided, doing something wrong, being humiliated somehow, getting it wrong. And so then I was able to say, Hey, I'm here with you. Even if that happens, I'll be here with you. And, [00:05:00] so I think part of it is, is, Always turning toward whatever is alive there. And of course I have, I have a pretty close relationship with all three of those parts and I know them very well.
[00:05:11] Christine: So, so I can say, Oh, I, I, I know, I know what you've been through and I'm here. So that's, yeah, it's, I, I often talk about that healing always, always occurs in this moment. As we bring our loving attention to whatever is alive in us right now, and obviously there's the deeper work that we choose to do to get to know the part so that when they come up in this moment, you know, we can turn toward them that way.
[00:05:39] Christine: But, yeah, it's, it's an ongoing process of this relationship right between the self and the whatever part comes up. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:51] John: Well, what I love about that is, first of all, you just gave us a really simple, beautiful way to check in with your parts, especially before doing something [00:06:00] like activating, you know, your On this show, people will hear it and see you and I'm going to know something about you and now about what you've been through.
[00:06:11] John: And so, you know, addressing parts, fears and hearing them out. An example, I gave one of my clients this week and I have a convenient. Example in my own life that I have a toddler You know who's three and a half and so if she comes to me with a fear Like what if no one plays with me at school, right?
[00:06:33] John: And I offer some false Reassurance of like, oh, i'm sure that won't happen I don't know if that'll happen or not. It could happen right, so And, you know, we, we unintentionally invalidate fears, right? Whether it's our kids or our parts or whatever, I'm sure you'll be fine. I'm sure that won't happen, right?
[00:06:54] John: Versus I get how scary that is. And if that happens. [00:07:00] I'll be there for you, or I'll, you know, the second your school is over, I'll be there and we can talk about it. And, I'm, I'm with you through that. And I get how scary that is. Right. Yeah.
[00:07:10] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had, I asked those parts to show me, you know, show me when that happened.
[00:07:17] Christine: I can go back there with you. I can be with you. And that was something I discovered. Along the way through my own IFS process was that the response from the self, like you said, because other parts will say, Oh, everything will be fine. Don't worry about it. It'll kind of placate in that way or, or reframe or, you know, focus on the positive.
[00:07:37] Christine: But the self would never say that it would just say, Oh, that might happen. It could happen, but I will be here with you. And there's so much peace in that for the parts because. They're like, yeah, I know it could happen and you're not denying that, right, but you'll be okay because I will be here with you.
[00:07:58] John: So powerful. Yeah. I [00:08:00] think one cue is like, I'll tell my clients that if it feels like you're starting to even mildly argue with parts, that's probably another part, right? Coming in and going, I'm sure it'll be fine. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:13] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Denying the experience or having any kind of agenda or angst about it.
[00:08:18] Christine: Yeah.
[00:08:20] John: Well, a couple directions we could kind of go today. One, I'm always happy to hear more about you and your story, especially as it relates to working through your trauma. We had also mentioned this topic around inner critics, as a pretty universal topic and a very common starting off point for.
[00:08:41] John: Clients doing their, their own parts work, right. Or even a term that clients that don't know about IFS might come in with, yeah, what, what sounds good to you?
[00:08:51] Christine: Yeah, no, I, I would love to talk about that. That's actually a, a big part of my own healing and of my story [00:09:00] because, before I knew IFS, I. I learned the Enneagram.
[00:09:04] Christine: I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Enneagram. Only
[00:09:07] John: somewhat, yeah, but I know people are integrating the models and offering those similarities.
[00:09:13] Christine: Yeah, so I was at a conference and discovered that I'm an Enneagram type or, there's all kinds of things I believe about how the Enneagram fits with IFS, but my parts predominantly protected me.
[00:09:29] Christine: By becoming an Enneagram one, which is the perfectionist. And I remember the facilitator saying. You know you're an Enneagram One if you have a really harsh inner critic. And I said, oh yeah, that's me, right? And she said, you know, it can be unhelpful to name your critic. And she gave a story where someone had named their critic Gertrude.
[00:09:52] Christine: So I started calling my critic, well, now I know I actually have five. But, we'll get to that. So, I [00:10:00] started calling this kind of very inner critical voice, Gertrude. Eventually, once I, I learned IFS, I went in directly and I asked her, What is your name? I said, Is your name Gertrude? And she said, Oh, no. I said, What is your name?
[00:10:16] Christine: She said, My name is Edna. And I, so, I said, Okay, I'll call you Edna. And so she appears, and so for me, I'm very visual. Yeah, she, she appears kind of like this old woman with her finger out like this, and she's actually my social critic. So she, is the, the keeper of all the rules. She had a lot of cultural burden around all the should’s and the shouldn'ts and the have to’s and the musts and you must do this and must not do that to kind of fit in.
[00:10:46] Christine: Right. And so I got to know her very well and burdened her. There's a lot of layers, cultural burden experiences, and, she transformed [00:11:00] into kind of this, this, kind grandmother that bakes Dixonies and encourages and, you know, kind of let you know a little bit, Oh, Hey, you might want to check that out, but, but it's definitely not burdened.
[00:11:13] Christine: And we can talk more if you want about other critics that I've met.
[00:11:18] John: Well, I'm very interested and also I am. Amazed at how so often I've seen this in my, my clients and in myself, when an unburdening happens the way that our parts can often take. Change shape or role or age appearance, or they want to do things like make Dixonies or go play or make music or dance or something in that realm.
[00:11:44] John: Right. That is very much not like, oh my gosh, I went from doing this job that felt very high stakes for a very long time to. Making Dixonies or playing. Right. And I'm, I'm just always amazed at how parts often [00:12:00] they knew exactly what they would rather do if they weren't doing this job inside your system.
[00:12:04] Christine: Right. Yeah. And she, this part Edna is actually 11 years old. So she took the form of this older matronly, like kind of. None or teacher, because that's, she's essentially a type of parentified child, but she's, she's taking that form to show, her role, right. And, but yeah, yeah, all of my parts when they, when they unburdened, they, they take on, Yeah, just these roles full of play and presence and, and being playfully active and creative.
[00:12:43] Christine: It's wonderful. It is so
[00:12:45] John: incredible. And the age piece, you know, I find such a powerful, prompt or even curiosity as I'm Working with clients, right? Even early on and encountering a part. Do you get an idea about how old this client is? Or can you ask the client [00:13:00] how old, sorry, ask the part how old it is?
[00:13:02] John: And then followed by how old does the part think you are? And there's very often this discrepancy right away, right? Oh, so the part is for part of things you're for. Got it. Okay. So can you let the partner know that you're not for even just some light updating there, right? And there's often this kind of, this shock, they're kind of perplexed of like.
[00:13:25] John: Oh my gosh, you're, you're not four, right? And that updating of the part can often just be such a powerful, you know, moment for, for the client and their parts.
[00:13:37] Christine: Yeah. I found that often that they're, you know, if I can just receive an answer from the parts, how old do you think I am? It's often single digits.
[00:13:48] Christine: You know, tenor or younger that they think I am and I can say, Oh, well, of course, then you don't trust me or you don't, you know, think I can handle this. And sometimes they're pointing, I think, [00:14:00] at a, another part they're polarized with, and sometimes they're actually so fixated on the exile that they think I'm the exile, right?
[00:14:08] Christine: And so, so updating them can help and periodically, though, I want to point out, sometimes they'll say. Yeah, I know you're older, but you're, you still can't handle this. Like, you know, you're not, you're not equipped. And I'll say, who's not equipped? Like, tell me more about it. Because sometimes they still are pointing at another part that's been running the show.
[00:14:31] John: So true. Yeah. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you might have three or four parts in the room at once in a given moment, you know, when doing parts work, whether it's doing your own parts work or with. You know, an IFS therapist or guide or whatever. Yeah. Facilitator. Yeah. So, so as you got to know this, this inner critic, that is one of a handful and walked through this unburdening process, [00:15:00] she took a different role, very different shape, changed age.
[00:15:04] John: And then how did that Shift things in your system or what did that look like in terms of even the practicalities of your daily life in your experience of that inner critic, those should’s, those musts, that tension of, I'm not doing enough or I'm somehow not enough.
[00:15:23] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Significantly. So first I want to say.
[00:15:28] Christine: Because kind of one step, I think, at least in my journey that, that I would kind of skipped is that I, before I met IFS, I had been learning self compassion, you know, through Kristen Neff's work and different things like that. And I had learned how to bring self compassion basically to the exiles, right?
[00:15:46] Christine: The parts that felt really big emotions, felt wounded. But, and I had experienced all my life, these really big shame spirals. So some of, one of my, my, biggest critics [00:16:00] is what's called a destroyer, right? Which is kind of like a, almost a murderous suicidal part. And so I would have these very big shame spirals.
[00:16:09] Christine: And I, I began to learn to give self compassion to the wounded parts, but it wasn't until I learned through IFS to give compassion to the critics that those shame spirals were healed because I would still, I would feel, you know, the shame and I would give compassion to it, but then the critic would keep, you know, would get bigger usually and kind of compete.
[00:16:34] Christine: But so once I gave first, This compassionate witness curiosity to Edna and I got to understand how she came by her job, honestly, right? And how she was protecting me. She had learned all of these things. If you do this or you don't do that, you will be punished. You will be criticized. You will be rejected.
[00:16:56] Christine: You will be abandoned and I am protecting you. I had such [00:17:00] appreciation for her. So then when she would show up in my life, I think it's wonderful to have a name and to know when that part, kind of what they say to you or how they present in your body because then I could turn toward her and say, ah. Edna.
[00:17:15] Christine: And for me, the word was should, right? So whenever there was a should, I would say, Oh, Edna, you're here. Tell me what you're afraid of. And, and she would say, Oh, you know, you've, you've got to do this or that. And I would say, Oh, you know, remember. I'm here. I'm taking care of this part. Is there another part you need me to go to or, you know, just, just that relationship of turning toward her.
[00:17:40] Christine: She kind of began to soften into, instead of saying you should do this, you should do that with this really. Big angst, you know, she would say you you could do this.
[00:17:53] John: Oh, wow. You could do shift
[00:17:55] Christine: And and so I mean just the simplest things I was [00:18:00] I remember Early on I would notice her all through the day, you know Just should should should should should should should this I'm just running everything and so I would walk by the dishwasher And she'd say you shouldn't see the dishwasher Right.
[00:18:15] Christine: And I would say, Oh, I see you, you know, what are you afraid would happen if I didn't, you would be considered lazy. You would, you know, all of these things. And then, as she began to relax, she would say, you could empty the dishwasher. Like there was more of a choice. Yeah. Right. And then I would say, do we want to?
[00:18:35] Christine: Yeah, sure. No, we don't want to right now, we'll do it later. You know, there was, there was less, urgency around things and less shame around not doing the right thing. Yeah, it was really significant.
[00:18:48] John: There's, there's a, a tension. When we're being led by our parts, right? Or walking by and having that should and then immediately jumping into doing the dishes and feeling this [00:19:00] tension of perhaps I don't even know why, but it feels like there would be a consequence if I don't do these dishes, even though it's just me, an adult at home alone.
[00:19:08] John: Right? Right. We're off, off and running and yet, you know, parts when they, when they're no longer polarized, they can become almost like partners or co pilots or, consultants even right of like this part that really wants you to do well. Gosh, I get that. Gosh. I so appreciate how you want me to do well, even in my, you know, my own world of, Having some, some powerful inner critics, even that about my own clinical work or wanting to be a good therapist.
[00:19:39] John: Gosh, I get that. You really want me to, to be a good therapist. You want to make sure I'm doing good work or I have, you know, high standards for the type of work I'm doing. And yet when we get into. Trouble, or when it's distressing it again, when those parts are polarized and everything feels so high stakes or someone in my life has [00:20:00] even a, an ounce of feedback for me and a part jumps in, right?
[00:20:04] John: And tightens up and my stomach gets tight and my throat, you know, feels weird. And all of a sudden I'm bracing for impact, right? And I'm getting ready to fight or run away or whatever it is, or shut down or to your point about shame. Right. That person may or may not have even been offering critical feedback at all.
[00:20:22] John: It's just like Yeah, like if you're looking at your phone you see a text from someone important in your life and just says, you know Hey, can we talk?
[00:20:32] Christine: Oh
[00:20:35] John: Whatever it is, right and then a boom there's a part part there.
[00:20:38] Christine: Yeah Yeah, and it's I think especially with inner critics. I like are you familiar with Martha Sweezy's more recent book, internal family systems for shame and guilt
[00:20:52] John: got it on my shelf.
[00:20:53] John: I haven't cracked into it yet, but you're, you're, you're not the first one to mention that. So that's so good. I have a
[00:20:58] Christine: book. I have a whole YouTube [00:21:00] series on. Awesome. Talking about this book because it's so good. She has over 200, you know, examples of IFS sessions around this, but she talks about the, the six acts of the shame cycle and, I'll go, I'll just go through the first three real quick, but the first one is that something bad happens to us.
[00:21:22] Christine: Yeah. Right. And. And then the second one is that we accept that as meaning that something's wrong with us, right? That so we, a part of us takes on, I am bad. And so then the third actually calls critics go large. And this is where a big critic comes in to say. You're right. You are bad, right? And then says, and the critics intention often is, Okay, I'm learning that this quality or this, you know, it could be anything from showing an emotion like anger or sadness or [00:22:00] fear or sensitivity or Sexuality or You know, it could be anything right?
[00:22:07] Christine: It could be the way you look anything It says, okay, this thing is so shameful and is going to make you not safe or acceptable to your caregivers or your peers. So I'm going to exile that. I'm going to invite, and the way I'm going to do that is by saying, you're so bad, you're so bad, you're right. You're so bad.
[00:22:26] Christine: Get away. In an effort to get the whole of us to be accepted. Like I have to exile this part in order to survive and be acceptable kind of as a whole. And so the critics learn to do that in essence to save us even though a lot of the other parts rightfully hate the critics because they're You know, they're kind of causing the very thing they don't like, right?
[00:22:52] Christine: And, and then the, you know, these young parts that are holding, I am bad, get reinforced. I am so bad. The shame spiral [00:23:00] just continues down. And so, she, do you want me to go through the rest of the shame cycle? Yeah, go for it. This is great. So really the, the other parts of the shame cycle are kind of other parts that come online.
[00:23:13] Christine: So, so from three to six, they can kind of come in any. Order, but, there's the critics that come in and then there's the, the parts that say, never again, right? I'm going to make sure that you. Look and act the right way. And in some ways, my, my Edna is kind of like that. But I have some, so much harsher inner critics.
[00:23:36] Christine: I remember when I, when I got to know them, I said, are you Edna? There's one named Gollum that appears like Gollum from Lord of the Rings. And he said. Oh, no, I am much meaner than her, right? Oh, okay. But, yeah. So he's, he's a big one that I will turn towards and say, Oh God, let me see you're here. [00:24:00] But, but, so the critics and then the ones that, that kind of keep us in line, a lot of those managers, right?
[00:24:05] Christine: I'm going to manage the world around you. I'm going to manage you, your behavior, your appearance. So that this bad thing will never happen again, and of course they have good intention, but then we also can go to Act 5, which is, I think she calls it, I have it, I have it over here, hold on, oh, the, the warrior mutiny, which is kind of these angry raging parts that push out, so they say, I'm not bad, you're bad, right?
[00:24:37] Christine: And again, they're trying to counteract it. The critics and you know, to kind of create some balance here, like we can't handle all of this feeling bad inside. Let's push it out. No, you're bad. And then the final one is the, the rescue team, which is, you know, these, the firefighters of noneing, escaping, binging, [00:25:00] dissociative parts that say there's so much pain and shame in the system.
[00:25:04] Christine: I'm just gonna, I'm gonna soothe you. I'm going to help you. I'm going to do something about it. And so, so usually when people come into therapy or coaching, they're, sometimes they have exiles at the surface, but a lot of times they're aware of this really extreme behavior of all of these parts that are trying to protect them, right?
[00:25:23] Christine: Big critics or raging parts, addictive parts, managers and things. And so as you know, in IFS, the solution is to then come back to act one. And say, what is the bad thing that happened and bring the self energy into that? And can we witness that and can we then unload the burden of I am bad, right? And what was taken on as meaning from that, from that.
[00:25:54] Christine: So,
[00:25:58] Christine: so anyway, there's, but I wanted, what [00:26:00] I really wanted to, to highlight was this. whenever we have these shame spirals in our lives, there's always a shamed one and a shamer inside, right? There's, there's the, the accused and the accuser, and, and just, just dealing with one and not the other is not, is not going to help that, you know, that dynamic.
[00:26:23] Christine: But of course, the self has the capacity to, to be with them all and, and see the good intention, accept, appreciate, love them, you know, all of that and say, can I help? Can I, what if I could help?
[00:26:39] John: Yeah. Amazing. I'm always, you know, in all of how When we go in and we kind of bear witness to the parts story about how they took on this role sometimes it's a dramatic big t trauma story sometimes it's [00:27:00] as Seemingly benign as I was seven and I played You know, violin in my recital and I missed a few notes and on the way home, my mom just didn't talk to me, right?
[00:27:10] John: Right. So part came online and said, well, in order for that to never happen again, and for mom to not withdraw love or people to not love me anymore, I'm going to be more perfect than ever and never miss a note again. Right. And then in my, in my case, you know, living. In San Francisco, Silicon Valley and the tech world, 30 years later, people come in and they've been that part has been in the driver's seat for 30 years, making me, you know, leading me to be as perfect as possible and as overachieving and everything feels really high stakes.
[00:27:41] John: And they have these incredibly effective managers around, Being perfect, being efficient, right? Being buttoned up all the time, never showing weakness. You know, powerful, effective managers who are also beyond exhausted, you know, or the cracks are [00:28:00] starting to show in the form of, I'm so perfect from nine to five and then from five to whatever I'm drinking myself to sleep or into oblivion or whatever it is, right?
[00:28:10] John: To try to. Kind of even things out, right? Or I got some remotely critical feedback at work and went home and drank until I couldn't feel anymore or whatever it is, right,
[00:28:22] Christine: right, right, right. Yeah, it's it. You're exactly right. You know, I've, I've met so many parts of my own system and in client systems and sometimes parts will, will diminish something that happened for them.
[00:28:39] Christine: I'll say, oh, that was nothing that can't, can't be anything. And other times they'll completely block them off, you know, from, from accessing something that happened. But I know for me, one of the big traumas I had that, I realize now kind of organize a lot of those parts that are in that shame [00:29:00] cycle was when I was 10, my best friend of the last 3 years that I spent every day with, said to me on the front lawn of the primary school, you know, you're fat and ugly and I can't be your friend anymore.
[00:29:15] Christine: And I found out later that. Some of the popular girls had told her, you can be in our group if you, you know, disown Christine. And she never talked to me again. I, you know, I went on, I had other friends, I did, you know, different things. And my system had really diminished that experience. But when I went back in my, you know, with all my parts, I realized that I had these, you know, because she had said I was fat, I developed this.
[00:29:43] Christine: Part that controlled my eating. Yeah. Right. And controlled my body. You know, she said I was ugly. I had parts that controlled, you know, my appearance. Just the thinking, well, maybe if I'm perfect, like you said, you know, then I won't experience this [00:30:00] kind of rejection. So perfectionist came online. I ended up trying to get perfect grades, trying to get approval from teachers, trying to get approval anywhere I could to kind of just all of these parts that.
[00:30:13] Christine: that developed and people pleasing parts and, really that have let me know they came on as this army in that one moment. You know, and then they, and then they ran my life for the next 30 plus years. So
[00:30:28] John: it's incredible, you know, to, to your point, or in the, a point that was made kind of in your introduction, your bio is, and this was my experience is, you know, after.
[00:30:40] John: Being a therapist for, you know, 10, 11 years and doing things a certain way, and even doing things like, working from a cognitive perspective. So a client comes in and says, I'm worthless and you kind of work with the cognition of that, right? Like, what's the proof that you're worthless? What's the proof that you're not maybe not [00:31:00] worthless?
[00:31:00] John: Is there a replacement thought for that? Right. And you're kind of, it, it can provide relief, but in a way, and. Now that I know IFS, I'm kind of arguing with this part that took on this belief in a very emotionally charged moment, right? Like yours and kind of coming in and saying, you're, you're wrong.
[00:31:20] John: For holding this belief, right? It's like the part holds a belief of I'm not enough and just coming in and going, you're enough, you're enough, you're enough, right? I used to work with, with, with kids, with, behavioral issues, here in San Francisco, like in the public school district. And one of the most activating things you could do would be to praise a kid.
[00:31:43] John: Right. Or to say, wow, you're so, you're, you're so good. Right. Or, you did a great job. Or you are, in other words, like you are worthy of love. And I remember at the time, like giving that type of praise in whatever way and seeing how activating it was [00:32:00] for some of these kids. Right. Cause again, I'm going in just like these dominant parts in them that have been, abused and traumatized and beaten down and going, you're, you're, you're totally fine.
[00:32:11] John: Right. And then wondering why there's this kind of backlash and intense rejection of that. Right. And then now seeing that through a parts perspective, it's like that, that makes a lot of sense. Right.
[00:32:25] Christine: Yeah. And, and on the flip side too, even if, so in my case, teachers and things would give me that kind of approval.
[00:32:33] Christine: And I would say I was addicted to it. I, I had to get that in order to feel. Yeah. Like I had any worth, right? So, so it became this very dependent relationship and desperation, right? I have to get this, this supply of, of approval and, and great good grades and, you know, all of that. But, But it was exhausting, [00:33:00] you know, because it was like, but if you really found out who I really am, you would not, you would not love me because those parts still really held so much shame.
[00:33:10] Christine: And, and what's interesting to me is the self, because you were saying, you know, I think when you were talking about kind of that cognitive behavioral therapy of, or cognitive therapy of, well, the opposite, you know, and kind of, it's really. Other managers that are trying to help and and so many modalities.
[00:33:28] Christine: That's I think the best they have to offer is here's another manager to try to counterbalance polarization. Right? A burden systems way of trying to achieve balance. But what's interesting is when myself would go in to these parts that held this I am bad. I am unlovable Belief it's just the presence of the self.
[00:33:51] Christine: It's like I call it the loving gaze Yeah, it was just like I see you and you are delightful [00:34:00] and there's It's like that part just knows that it's loved, without even having to be told, no, you are enough. You are enough. You are enough. You know, it's like it demonstrates and shows that by attuning, I guess.
[00:34:15] John: Well, yeah, I love that. And so I, . I also, you know, teach IFS to the clinicians that work at my practice. I own a teaching practice here and a lot, you know, sometimes because we can be so eager to kind of go through the steps or even looking at like the steps for unburdening, we can kind of blow past, this really pivotal moment of, you're there with a part, perhaps just asking.
[00:34:44] John: To hear its story, or is it, is there anything it wants to share with you? And maybe that part goes right into that story or right into that moment for you of being bullied and just hanging out there and going, if it's okay, just let that part tell you that story. Can you just kind of hang out there? [00:35:00] With the part as it shares this story, is there more to share?
[00:35:02] John: Does it want to tell you more or show you more? And a lot of times they do, right? And this might be decades of this part, not having, you know, a place to tell their story and not having self of, and not trying to fix it. Right. Especially the way we do in. I was just like, well, but you turned out okay and look at you and, but you've got good grades or whatever we do to unintentionally minimize your, your pain, your wound, wounding.
[00:35:28] John: Right. But just this, like you said, the presence of self and going. Yeah. Just be there with the part and hear that story entirely. And perhaps after that moment, there is more, more steps to take of bringing the part into the present or actually letting go of something thoughts, feelings, beliefs, whatever, installing new qualities, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:35:49] John: But, yeah, so, so powerful. Just that witnessing piece.
[00:35:54] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, with that particular part, I remember, you know, again, I'm [00:36:00] visual, but in my mind's eye, just sitting on the grass in front of the primary school, you know, rocking with her, hugging her saying, I'm here. I'm here with you.
[00:36:09] Christine: You're not alone. I really get how devastating this is for you. Right? And. I feel emotional now, like just, just the bonding that happened of not trying to fix it, not trying to go anywhere, but just, I see you and I get it, I get how, how bad this was for you and tell me whatever you want to tell me. And I like, you know, to your point about saying, is there anything else?
[00:36:34] Christine: Is there anything else? I love, I teach this, you know, with the, with the witnessing step, is there anything else? Is there anything else? Is there anything else? And you don't stop until they say. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, and sometimes I've had experiences where they tell me one thing and that's it and I've had with my people pleasing part She told me things more and more and more for a year and a half [00:37:00] and this And this.
[00:37:02] Christine: Yeah. And this because it was really complex trauma, right? It was just moment after moment after moment. And I really want you to go and be with me here and here and here are all of these parts, right? That she was protecting. So again, I loved, I love to say that, that, you know, the witnessing can last.
[00:37:20] Christine: Two minutes or two years?
[00:37:23] John: Well, and also this is so is why it's so important that we keep going back to parts Right, or if you reach this moment and there's ten minutes left in the session or five minutes left or whatever And then the client comes back the next time you go. Okay. All right Where should we start today and we start somewhere totally new right?
[00:37:40] John: We've got This vulnerable little one still there waiting on the lawn of the school, wondering like, is anyone coming back for me? Right. Also why the integration and the following up piece is so important. Right. It's checking in on her every day, 21 days or whatever you choose to do there. But, going back and I think [00:38:00] What one piece that I, again, I share with my clinicians who are learning IFS is a quality that I really love and can feel in myself, when I'm in self is not having an agenda and then my client's parts can feel that, right?
[00:38:15] John: Like, I don't need this to go anywhere today. Nothing needs to happen. Quote unquote, right. Or if we find a part, it's like, again, nothing needs to happen today with this part to either do some. Great on burning or not doing unburdening or just to hang out with the part or just to sit here feeling really stuck, you know, today.
[00:38:33] John: And that might be, that might be the work. And so for me, one of my primary jobs, so to speak. And doing the work is being in that place and being in self as much as possible. And when I can feel even physically that I don't have an agenda, I'm trying to stay there right in session. On the other hand, there's moments where there's parts of me that do are eager and want to jp in or my therapist parts that [00:39:00] want the session to go somewhere today.
[00:39:02] John: Right. I want to show someone. That IFS is really great and it could change your life. And so what if we could do it on burning today? Right. And all of that starts to feel like tension and starts to feel like an agenda. And then the client's parts can, can feel it too. Right.
[00:39:15] Christine: That's right. Yes. Yeah. It's that's why I feel like.
[00:39:19] Christine: You know, when I meet with groups or when I meet with clients, the best thing I can possibly do is to meet with my own system beforehand. Because when I'm giving that attention, first of all, if there are any parts that are active in my own life, I've just given them attention so they can rest a little bit and not be in the forefront.
[00:39:38] Christine: And then, and then during the whole session, there's an, This awareness, like you said, of parts that come up with some kind of agenda and again, being able to turn toward them, you know, I really imagined in my, my mind just saying, Oh, I see you, I get you. I appreciate you. I know you really want to have a good outcome for this client.
[00:39:59] Christine: You really want [00:40:00] them to, you know, be transformed and you have such good intention. Often these are kind of self like parts, right? Yeah. But we know that they're not self because of that that urgency that agenda and to just say oh, you know Can you let me let me lead sometimes? I might need to get with them, you know outside of sessions but but when I'm able like you said to be just Agenda less and present with the person in front of me, usually after the session, I'm blown away.
[00:40:32] Christine: It feels like it just led, you know, the client system led itself and especially once the client is in self, I'm just sitting back and they're doing everything because the self knows what to do. So it always, it always goes better. And then those, those parts that had agenda, you know, can look and say, Oh yeah, it does feel
[00:40:53] John: better.
[00:40:54] John: Well, in that piece of defaulting to the client's system and to the client's access to self energy [00:41:00] is so powerful and something I'm usually I'm thinking about all the time, right? Especially when I am stuck or a little unsure of what to do in the session, right? Or, which part needs. Your help today the most, right?
[00:41:13] John: And there's a lot going on or even just in life, there's a ton going on. And so slowing it all down, letting parts speak up, letting, helping the client hear from those parts, ideally one at a time or conference table or around a fire, whatever it's going to be. And then going back to the client, right?
[00:41:31] John: Do you, do you get a sense of which part needs your help? Is it okay to. To go work with that part, and checking in with other parts about that. And sometimes once you get started, you'll know right away and other parts either take issue with it, or they have, you know, more pressing needs, whatever it is.
[00:41:48] John: And then we're kind of in the fluidity of a session, right. And then working with someone's system and everyone's system is so different that. Right. We can never assume that we know how this is going to go. Right. [00:42:00] And so again, for the therapist or the practitioner, letting go of needing to know how this is going to go or needing to know that this is going to be a good session or a really stuck session, right?
[00:42:10] John: Or whatever it is. Yeah.
[00:42:12] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's interesting. Something that, that soothes those parts for me is that we only ever have to be. With whatever part is here now, right? Because sometimes there will be parts that get overwhelmed. Well, what if another 1 comes in and blocks the work and then another 1 comes in and then there's so many and there's confusion about who's here.
[00:42:31] Christine: Well, we just deal with whatever comes in this moment and whatever comes in this moment. And so, like, some of the parts get overwhelmed because they think about. So far ahead, right? Like, you know, this and what if this and this and this happens? well, that might happen but all we ever have to to work with is whatever is here right now and And sometimes the process is that way where this part comes in and blocks the way and we meet their concern and then another part Comes [00:43:00] in and we meet their concern and maybe we don't ever get to the target part But, I like to say, you know, every part is so worthy to get to know.
[00:43:08] Christine: Yeah. Like sometimes, practitioners and even clients sometimes will have this idea that, that the ideal is to get to the exile, right? Yeah. You gotta hear, hear these roots. But, but these, these protective parts are young too, and that they're, you know, I say they're your inner children too. Yeah. And they, they need so much love and attention.
[00:43:30] Christine: Yeah. And so if we just give them love and attention right now, it's really going to be. Significantly worth it, you know, in, in the big picture.
[00:43:40] John: So true. Yeah. That, that, that piece about, that this came up in, group supervision at my practice recently around, kind of like looking for the exile, right?
[00:43:52] John: Or like, yeah. Some of the ifs folks will talk about that, like, exile hunting or something like that. , that's like the big, [00:44:00] the big goal and going for the big one. Yeah, exactly. And, . Yeah. Understanding, again, that, that can come from a very do good in parts of, right. If I really want to help. And, and yet when we blow past protectors, right.
[00:44:18] John: And, you know, I at first had learned about this idea of like backlash from protectors and then experienced it when with a client, I went too deep, too fast. And we ended up, you know, with an exile without. The permission from the protectors. Right. And going really, really slow with those protectors.
[00:44:37] John: Right. Even if it feels too slow to some of my parts that really want to, again, be good and efficient and get somewhere. Right. And in the client's parts too. Right. They want to get somewhere. But we have to go so slow. Right. And really starting with the protectors as a rule of thb is I think a good one.
[00:44:55] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I've had clients who You know, [00:45:00] afterward, maybe they'll have dissociative parts that, you know, take them out pretty severely afterward or big inner critics that come out because how dare you be vulnerable or how dare you, you know, let this out or, or even self harming suicidal parts. So it's that's why it's so important, right?
[00:45:17] Christine: To, to get all of those parts permission to really get to know them because they are. Protecting for a reason and they're really, really genuinely afraid, you know, and they are going to, to get really activated if they think you're going into territory, that's going to, you know, compromise the person's safety or whatever, or, you know, the volatility of their whole system.
[00:45:40] Christine: And so, yeah, I'm, I'm often saying, yes, you know, let's go to whoever has. Any opinion about this, we will never steamroll over them, you know, to try to get, get deeper.
[00:45:55] John: So important to check in with parts at the end of a session or again, especially if there's been [00:46:00] unburdening or working with an exile and then to go back and check in with parts.
[00:46:03] John: Cause sometimes, like you said, they, they have real issues with what just happened. Right. It's important that we, we hear from that and spend time or reserve time at the end of a session, really doing some of that integration piece around, other parts, speaking up about what just happened or concerns about what this means for my role now or whatever.
[00:46:23] John: And I think some practitioners will. Kind of skip past that or just not manage the clock well enough to have time for that piece. Understandably. Yeah.
[00:46:33] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. I have, I have a little bit host of managers, you know, when I meet with clients, one of them is the timekeeping one. You're, you're allowed to do that for me.
[00:46:45] Christine: But, so yeah, we can have parts that support us, but, but then there's also, if that part comes in and says, Oh no, no, no, you can't do this. You can't do that. I'll say, you know, it's okay. You can relax. Thank you for keeping, keeping the time. But, but [00:47:00] I can, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll go forward and do what we can.
[00:47:04] Christine: But yeah, I love that what you're saying about, closing in such a way as to check in with everybody. And sometimes I'll even tell a client. You know, can you commit to even like five minutes after the session, just being still and being with whatever comes up in you and being curious about it, right?
[00:47:24] Christine: Because you to validate or, you know, that you might have, some parts that get, they get upset or activated by it. And that's when
[00:47:34] John: you're really bridging the gap between sessions and honoring client's autonomy that, you can, and perhaps, even. Should consider, you know, should keep doing the work and as clients kind of learn that this work can be very self led, right?
[00:47:50] John: And can can continue in between sessions, right? Or keep working with your parts afterward, right? It could be 5 minutes. Eventually, for some clients, it's an hour, right? [00:48:00] Or in our own work as practitioners, right? The work is kind of always Happening. Right. And as clients kind of learn the ropes of like basic, you know, core principles, like unblending, then they can practice that.
[00:48:14] John: Right. And yeah, this really does help. And listening really does help. I think listening is just such a big piece of this work. And again, not trying to argue or change your part's mind. And even that piece around. Appreciation I find is often enough, so to speak, to help a part on unblend and soften, right?
[00:48:34] John: Even that perfectionist part, right? Just could you send that person appreciation for how hard it's working for you or for me in my case, how hard it's working to help me be a good therapist. It really wants to be a good therapist. Wow. That makes so much sense. Just send that part of appreciation. And often that is enough for that softening to happen.
[00:48:52] John: And then it's the more spaciousness to, to, to be. Yeah,
[00:48:58] Christine: I think, you know, the [00:49:00] more we get to know parts on a deeper level, you know, we asked them, what are you afraid would happen if you didn't do this? And we hear they're really valid reasons why they're doing this. But, you know, ourself naturally has this appreciation for.
[00:49:14] Christine: Oh, oh my goodness. That's why you're, you're protecting me from death, right? From, from, you know, abandonment from these really severe things. You have this really good intention, even if your impact is, you know, hard for the system, you have a good intention. I do appreciate it. And so, so then eventually as we experience that more and more with parts, our system does, or a client system does then.
[00:49:41] Christine: Like I'll tell clients and I'll say, you know, you'll you'll experience this but every part does what it does for a reason So you don't have to even know what it is initially as long as you know, I know there is a reason I know there's a good intention Let me come towards you and [00:50:00] and listen to you so that I can understand what it is Right.
[00:50:03] Christine: So then when so then when something even like a suicidal part Right. It's really overwhelming. And the system hates comes up, but you're like, okay, I know you have some kind of good intention. You, you know, have some reason while you're doing this. There's a reason why this makes sense. Then that can give us a little bit of that courage to go toward it.
[00:50:24] Christine: And say, okay, you know, tell me what your good intention is. I'm not seeing it yet. That's
[00:50:31] John: great. This is flown by and, just with a couple of minutes left, anything that you wanted to say that perhaps we didn't get to here in the final minutes. And then of course, you know, how people can find out more about you and follow along and learn more about working with you.
[00:50:49] Christine: Yeah. Well, you know, since we were talking about inner critics, one thing I was going to say is. You know, I was saying, I, I got to know several different critics and, [00:51:00] and one of them was, you know, I heard Dick Schwartz talk about this, that there's kind of these two different kinds of, of suicidal parts.
[00:51:07] Christine: One that's like, I feel so awful. I want to die. And the other, this actually murderous, it's kind of like you need to die. You're so pathetic. Right. And that's kind of the biggest critic that I had that was causing so much pain in my system and being able to turn toward that part. And say, who are you pointing at?
[00:51:29] Christine: Who do you want to die in the system that you're willing to die, right? For, for this part to die and pointing at these parts that are called pathetic and too sensitive and too emotional and just causing problems too needy, you know, and, and that was actually when, what he said was that he needed my anger to, to come out of exile, my, my self protective anger and self agency.
[00:51:56] Christine: To come out in order to protect [00:52:00] a little bit more, right? Because that had also been exiled. And so as you go towards these parts, they will show you the way, right, of very naturally of what needs help. And then, you know, once that was, was, Was worked with and I mean now I have such appreciation for the part the murderous part Like wanted me to die And and I've had you know other just really big inner critics and there's I don't know if you're familiar just real quick with Jay early and Bonnie Weiss's little bit Yeah books and they have one about about inner critics and they have I think it's seven different types of inner critics that but Luckily, actually, I hadn't read that before I met my critics, so, so it didn't kind of skew them, but I was able to go, oh, yeah, you're this kind, and you're this kind, and you're this kind, right?
[00:52:54] Christine: But, so, so I just encourage people to be so [00:53:00] curious, right, about, and to just trust that as you get to know whatever's in front of you. the puzzle pieces will eventually come into play. I mean, I didn't know back then when I met Edna that I also had these four or five other, critics, but you know, if you go in and ask, you will find out like I did with the one, you know, are you Edna?
[00:53:20] Christine: No, you know, I'm, I'm this, and I remember then having another and saying, are you Gollum? No, I'm, I'm in charge of this, right? And, as you befriend, These parts you can just turn toward them whenever they come up, you learn their tells and you say, Hey, I'm here with you. I see you. I see your good intention.
[00:53:42] Christine: Like you said, yeah, it's just such a beautiful, beautiful modality to, to, to get to know, like I have clients who say, you know, I know more people inside of me than I do outside of me, but, but to really be a friend, all of this, [00:54:00] these beautiful. People inside of us. Yeah.
[00:54:03] John: Yeah. I'm so grateful for, the model and, yeah, and very grateful for your time today.
[00:54:12] John: Just. So much richness and the conversation and I so appreciate your, openness with your parts and your story and your trauma that just helps to really bring all of this to life and just shows a lot of, courage the way that you bring your story into. The work and into your work with, with, with clients and practitioners.
[00:54:38] John: Yeah, that being said, again, maybe how, how can people find out more about you and get in touch and work with you?
[00:54:45] Christine: Yeah. So if, you know, I do share quite a bit of my own parts work, I feel like I'm an expert in my own system. So I YouTube. My, my YouTube channel is the ordinary sacred, and that's really where I am [00:55:00] everywhere is, on Instagram.
[00:55:02] Christine: I'm. The underscore ordinary underscore sacred. And then my website is the ordinary sacred. com. And there you can, access different resources. And I have a weekly group, an IFS community that meets that. We usually will do a check in with what's alive in us and then, do some kind of IFS exercise together or meditation together.
[00:55:27] Christine: And then people break off into groups and share for their parts with each other. It's just a really supportive, supportive space. So, yeah, the ordinary sacred. com.
[00:55:37] John: Love it. Christine. Thank you again for being here. We'll of course push links to all that and in the show notes and description wherever people are listening and or watching and Obviously, I'd love to have you back anytime to go even further with this stuff.
[00:55:53] John: So thank you again for being here and Yeah, let's keep in touch.
[00:55:59] Christine: It's my pleasure [00:56:00] John. Thank you.
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