How Our "Firefighter Parts" Battle Shame ft. Tammy Sollenberger
How Our "Firefighter Parts" Battle Shame with Tammy Sollenberger
In this Episode Tammy Sollenberger, LMHC, NCC, shares insights from her extensive experience with IFS and provides valuable perspectives on navigating the complexities of our internal world.
Key Topics Discussed:
1. Introduction to Internal Family Systems (IFS):
- Tammy introduces the concept of Internal Family Systems therapy and highlights its principles. John and Tammy discuss the "parts" within ourselves and how they operate.
2. Navigating Parts and Self:
- Tammy and John explore the idea of being "unblended" from our parts to create space for self-awareness; the significance of recognizing and understanding the activation of different internal parts.
3. Working with Activation and Dissociation:
- Tammy provides insights into dealing with activated parts and the role of dissociation. She emphasizes recognizing cues of being in a specific part and techniques to create space between the self and the activated part.
4. Decision-Making and Parts:
- Exploring decision-making processes influenced by various internal parts and the importance of creating a dialogue with our parts to make more conscious and self-aligned decisions.
5. Practical Application of IFS:
- John shares a personal experience applying IFS principles in a challenging real-life situation. Tammy discusses the practicality of using IFS in everyday scenarios and the benefits of unblending in challenging situations.
For more information about Tammy Sollenberger’s book, podcast, and resources related to Internal Family Systems, visit https://tammysollenberger.com/
Interview transcript:
[00:00:00] John: This is going inside an internal family systems therapy podcast. Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people harness the power of IFS therapy to accelerate recovery from trauma, anxiety, depression, and addiction. I'm your host, John Clark. I'm a licensed trauma therapist in San Francisco, practicing here, in the city, and online.
[00:00:28] John: Follow me on Instagram, YouTube at John Clark therapy and apply to work with me one on one at johnclarktherapy. com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in
[00:00:48] John: time to introduce our guest for today. That's Tammy Sullenberger. She's a therapist. She's an IFS therapist. She's a certified IFS consultant. She is the host of the one [00:01:00] inside podcast and she also. Has a book. That's my off the cuff intro. I had the name of your book, but then I forgot it.
[00:01:09] John: It's called "The One Inside." See? And that's, that's why we have bios written after today. But
[00:01:17] Tammy: we're loose like that. Well, I didn't help. I also was sort of like So, yeah. Yeah. The book is called The One Inside 30 Days To Your Authentic Self. I
[00:01:28] John: have to ask what that was like for you. We're gonna get into IFS and I wanna hear more about your journey with it.
[00:01:35] John: We're gonna talk about curiosity in IFS today. But what was that process like of, you know, deciding to write a book, writing a book, going through the process? How has it been? Once you got it out there in the world,
[00:01:48] Tammy: yeah, well, it was actually a pretty long process because I had this idea. I love those daily readers, like in a groups, they have daily readers or there's all these sort of like, whatever today is.
[00:01:59] Tammy: So today is November [00:02:00] 28th and you can, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever thing you're into, whatever spiritual thing you're into, you can get these daily readers. And I loved the idea of doing something like that for IFS. Thanks. Bye. So I started thinking that I would do 365 of them. Like I would do these sort of like one paragraph, 365 day, really just sort of an a little, like a little, like sounding gong bell mindfulness practice, just to have you sort of turn inside.
[00:02:34] Tammy: So I started kind of thinking of doing it that way. And then I was like, there's no way. There's no way. And then I was actually out on a paddle board. I was in Florida on a paddle board and I thought, what if I did it just for 30 days? But I actually taught the IFS model. So it, it was, it's the same kind of idea, a 30 day journey.
[00:02:58] Tammy: But for someone that doesn't know anything about [00:03:00] IFS, and it really was a, here's the first little tenant and do a little piece of work. Here's a second, do a little piece of work and just sort of like. I imagine like I'm holding your hand and we're just walking along this journey and I'm just introducing you to your inner world.
[00:03:15] Tammy: And I mean, I'm not, but sort of the book is, and I was just like, it was just, I was like, yes, that's it. 100%. And so I just started writing and just, I had, the problem was, I had a ton of stuff already written, and so that was almost part of the problem, because then I just tried to kind of like, put it all together instead of coming up with something.
[00:03:37] Tammy: Blank so a lot of editing because I was sort of like, what fits what doesn't fit. And so sometimes that's. But anyway, so and then I got a, during COVID during 2020, I got a writing coach who knew IFS. And so she basically was my therapist. It was almost like a writing therapist. And she would also say, okay, do this.
[00:03:57] Tammy: And we'll meet again in two weeks. Like, right. This. [00:04:00] Do that. do it to edit this, change this. And she was unbelievable. Absolutely. Absolutely loved her. And then we started sending out proposals and I met with a consultant and then I met with a woman who decided to open up her own publishing company and publish my book, her book, and another person's book.
[00:04:18] Tammy: So it really worked out great because then if you self publish self published books, aren't in Barnes and Noble. And I had I had a part of me that was like, I would be successful if I could go into my own, my local Barnes and Noble and go see my book on the shelf and that would be, that would be success.
[00:04:36] John: And then someone from high school sees you in there holding your own book or like signing a page secretly and they're like, Tammy? From high school,
[00:04:45] Tammy: that would be amazing. If I lived where I went to high school, that would be amazing. So maybe, maybe that's my goal for living somewhere else. Yeah. It's like I'm in New Hampshire and I went to high school in Maryland and someone from Maryland was in New Hampshire, but [00:05:00] maybe that's my 2024 goal is I want it in like the local Maryland.
[00:05:05] Tammy: And I'm there signing it and somebody like one of the popular girls from high school walks by. Yeah. New
[00:05:15] John: goal. Yeah. Yeah. New goal. It's totally pure. And yeah. It's very
[00:05:19] Tammy: self led. Yeah. Yeah. Very spiritual goal.
[00:05:24] John: Yeah. Resonating with that deeply of a similar fantasy. Cause I was not that very cool in high school.
[00:05:29] John: Well, I, I have just so many questions for you. I appreciate you sharing the process with the book. It's incredible. And you know, for some transparency, you know, you have. I've been learning IFS through you. And you've also been teaching IFS to the clinicians at my group practice. So I, you know, I've been really just you know working with you as much as I can.
[00:05:49] John: And it's been incredible. A lot of learning of course is experiential. So as much as I, when I come to, to meet with you and I just kind of want you to tell me what to do, [00:06:00] you do, you pull a fast one and make me do parts work on myself. And I'm like, God damn it. But
[00:06:05] Tammy: also, okay. I'm tricky like that. I'm tricky like that.
[00:06:08] Tammy: I pull those fast ones. Yeah. So I
[00:06:10] John: just imagine the way your book is, like you said, walking people kind of through the model by learning their own parts. It sounds like. That's such a very IFS thing. I'm learning the more I get to know you folks that like people like you. You've been doing it for 10 years.
[00:06:25] John: I saw on your website 2013. You had your first training with Dick Schwartz like that's that's crazy to me given that IFS seems like it's going through this crazy like Arrival of sorts and the demand for it is just absolutely through the roof. I mean, there's four or 500 people applying every time there's a lottery for the IFS Institute and picking 10 people at a time.
[00:06:49] John: It's just. It just must be a wild, you know, process for you to see it unfold and see both consumers learning about it and therapists learning [00:07:00] about it.
[00:07:01] Tammy: Yeah. Yeah. So when I started it was really, it was really weird because so probably 10, 12, let's say 12 years ago, I went to just a workshop on like children.
[00:07:15] Tammy: Children in therapy or something like that. And someone mentioned, the woman was from Boston and she mentioned this new therapy that all the people, all the people in Boston were kind of raving about, and I have parts kind of like the little high school part that like, what, Oh, there's something new and exciting.
[00:07:31] Tammy: Like I, all the cool people in Boston are doing this new and exciting thing. So I want them to do an exciting, fun, cool things. And so I went back to my office and I Googled IFS. And at that point I had been around for like 30 years, so it wasn't new, but it. was new. I think it just either had just become evidence based or wasn't evidence based yet.
[00:07:50] Tammy: So, and I had read about it and I just sort of looked up about it and, and at this, and then like right after that, I went to this event and [00:08:00] this woman that was hosting the event, it wasn't a therapy event, it was a different event, a social event. And the woman that was hosting was an IFS therapist. And I was like, Okay, that's weird.
[00:08:09] Tammy: And then a third thing happened where I found out Dick was going to this Cape Cod Institute where basically people go on vacations with their families and they do these and they bring in all the top names, everything, like all the top name of any, anybody that's doing anything teaches at this, this institute.
[00:08:27] Tammy: And you sort of, you know, do a workshop in the morning and then you have the rest of the day to like go on vacation in the summer. So I did that with my family 10 years ago, and it was, it was life changing. But the thing about the curiosity, I know you and I were going to talk about this, but that's the thing that the woman at the workshop said that really got me that.
[00:08:46] Tammy: So not only was it the, like, you'll be popular and cool because all the cool kids are doing it. So yes, all the cool kids are doing it, but she talked about curiosity and she, she said, like, what. Think about [00:09:00] if you brought more curiosity to your clients. Think about if you brought more curiosity to like why they're doing what they're doing and why you're doing what you're doing.
[00:09:09] Tammy: And I was like, you know, I was taught cognitive behavioral therapy. I was trained in dbt. You know, we challenge thoughts. We change thoughts. We try to work on changing behavior and we criticize behavior. We did behavior plans. That's what I was used to. And I just thought, like, wait, wait a second. Like, think about myself.
[00:09:30] Tammy: This is what we do in IFS. Like, think about myself, right? There are things that I do that I don't like to do. And there are things that. I don't want to do that. I do. And what if instead of being so frustrated, right? Why can't I get up earlier and do a morning routine? Why can't I do the spiritual discipline that I want to do?
[00:09:50] Tammy: Why can't I engage more? Why can't I be more open and loving to my partner? Why can't I be more vulnerable? Why can't I be a better parent? Like, what the hell is wrong with me? Right? I'm so frustrated. [00:10:00] Instead of, instead of that frustration, what if I brought a lot of curiosity? Like, do you know, there's, there's practices that I want to do.
[00:10:09] Tammy: I'm not doing. Can I bring some curiosity, not only to the desire to do the practice. Those parts of me that want to do a thing, but also to the parts of me that don't want to do the thing right. Sometimes we're just so focused on the not doing right. Why can't I go on a diet or why do I keep, but we need to be curious from both right.
[00:10:30] Tammy: The part of me that wants to lose weight and the part of me that can't the part of me that wants to engage in a spiritual practice and the part of me that doesn't know the part of me that wants to be a more patient parent and a part of me that loses my patient. So what if I brought curiosity. And I was like, wow, how much would that shift?
[00:10:47] Tammy: I mean, even as I'm talking about that, I'm noticing that kind of a shift of like, wow, if I just brought some curiosity to all those different parts of me, that just feels so much different in my body than like, [00:11:00] get it together, which is what I usually feel. Just get your shit together. And it's like, okay, what's happening that I can't get my shit together and who inside is saying, get your shit together.
[00:11:11] Tammy: Can I bring some curiosity to that? Right. To the part of me that's like, get your shit together.
[00:11:15] John: Yeah. Wow. No, I you know folks in IFS talk a lot about the paradigm shift and I think it's profound, right? This idea that what if there was nothing wrong with you? And that is just one of the most beautiful.
[00:11:34] John: Like therapeutic stances I've ever seen and seen it played out and seen the way it humanizes ourselves and one another in a way that other models don't quite do it for me. Like to your point about CBT, which I did, I did pure purist CBT for years with a purist CBT supervisor, right? And that view on pathology, or in other words, on humanity is like, you're anxious because you've got dysfunctional thoughts that are [00:12:00] distorted, right?
[00:12:00] John: We need to, you know, clean those up. Basically, your thinking is wrong. And it works to an extent, right? Of untangling that, right? Like, I feel like everyone hates me. And it's like, okay, what's the proof that everyone hates you? Yeah. Now, if a client comes in and they go, yeah, I'm just feeling like everyone hates me.
[00:12:17] John: Okay, can you focus in on that feeling or where do you feel that? Where do you find that in your body? Well, it's this pit in my stomach. Okay, can you, can you focus in on it? Can you actually invite it all the way forward? Right, what would that be like? Like what? Why would I want to do that? I'm here to get rid of it.
[00:12:31] John: And they're looking at me like, are you crazy? Right? What if you sent a little compassion? It's working really hard. Can you ask it why it's working so hard with what it's trying to do for you? It's just this incredible unraveling that happens even in a first session, even if a client is like they're new to IFS or they're not even sure what this exercise is, but they're like, yeah, I guess I can try it.
[00:12:52] John: It's just so beautiful and gentle. And it literally the biggest relief I've had. And this was [00:13:00] after, you know, like a year sabbatical from clinical work by sabbatical. I mean, got burnt out and couldn't do it anymore is. Not only what if there's nothing wrong with you, but people are no longer coming to me with the assumption that I have the answers to somehow fix you, or they're like, why can't I stop drinking?
[00:13:14] John: I'm like, well, you come in and we're going to do 30 days. And anytime you want to drink, slap yourself with a rubber band on the wrist. And you know, and it's probably cause your mom, it's like, well, yeah, I know it's because my mom, but what the hell do I do about it? It's like, well, okay, well let's get more intellectual about it.
[00:13:28] John: And then maybe you'll stop drinking. Like, no, my clients are smart and creative and capable and all these things and a lot of therapy inadvertently undermines all of that. Or in if Fs we call it self, right? It's like I must have some, I have something that you're lacking. Mm. Right. Is, is so much of what therapy is built upon.
[00:13:48] John: Right. Or I was trained psychodynamically for, for the start of my, my work trained deeply in psychodynamics, right? So it's like you're, you suffer 'cause you have dysfunctional relational dynamics and I need you to [00:14:00] play 'em out with me, right? Mm-Hmm. and I can eventually be this powerful figure that, you know, gives you a corrective emotional experience.
[00:14:07] John: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And you got to keep coming back if you want me to keep correcting your internal, you know, model. And IFS just turns all of that on its head, right?
[00:14:21] Tammy: Yeah. Like my, my corrective experience comes from the parts of me. All right, so the parts of me that need and desire a corrective experience, they get that from me, from the self, my true self, you know, capital M me, capital S self, they get that from me.
[00:14:43] Tammy: So if the story is. You said, like, you know, why can't I stop drinking? Okay, so if I bring curiosity to that, or if I, if I have the thought that I'm so stupid, if I bring curiosity to that part of me that thinks that, part of me that really believes that I'm so [00:15:00] stupid, right, well, I want to go to you. Hey, buddy, what's going on?
[00:15:03] Tammy: Tell me. Where is this belief coming from? And so we can use some of our, so I've sort of learned this. I used to be sort of so pissed off about CBT and DBT, like it's all bad. But now I'm like, you know, I can use some of that languaging to really get to know, tell me where these beliefs are coming from.
[00:15:20] Tammy: Right? Not in sort of this heady, like, let's beat these beliefs out of you. Beliefs out of you because sort of beliefs lead to feelings, lead to behavior. And that's actually really nice and simple. And I actually personally kind of like that. But really, can I just be in this open hearted, curious way of like, where'd you learn that?
[00:15:37] Tammy: Tell me more. Show me the experiences where you believed that, where that became reinforced. And so, and then I'm just going to be open and let this part tell me what's happening. And then, and this is where this corrective emotional spirits can actually happen in that sort of attachment work can be repaired.
[00:15:55] Tammy: What's it like to have me listen to you? What's it like to be together [00:16:00] right now is you tell me about all these times in your life that were really hard. What's it like just to be with me and tell me that, and we're just going to slow that way down and I'm just going to be with this part. This part is going to be with me.
[00:16:12] Tammy: And we're going to have this corrective experience and this attunement and this attachment work. We're going to do all of that juicy stuff by just this part telling me a story and me just being here, witnessing and curiosity and openheartedness. I mean, this is life changing,
[00:16:33] John: you know, I'm. As you know, I'm like a full convert.
[00:16:36] John: It's ridiculous. I have to, I have to calm down my excitement for IFS. I called my sister a while back and told her about it at the end. She was like, this sounds like more than just a therapy model. You know, it's just like so it can get that way because. I, I feel like I haven't fully known what deep healing looks like both for [00:17:00] myself and in the room with clients when they actually uproot that thing that we're talking about or that worthlessness, right?
[00:17:07] John: And a lot of therapy I think focuses on more of this top down of like, let's mitigate the symptoms. Let's manage the drinking rate. Let's do a behavior plan to your point. Right? And I'm just like, I've never really felt that. That felt like true healing to me really until I, yeah, started using this model or like had a client, walked a client through an unburdening for the first time.
[00:17:29] John: It was like, Oh my goodness, this is, this is very real. And this actually, this really works. And this is a deep, deep model. And You know, this, this thing, I think Frank Anderson says it like, it's the most complete model that I found. So if you come from like this cognitive background, you go in, you find this vulnerable part that's carrying this belief of I'm worthless.
[00:17:50] John: And maybe you bring that part through an unburdening right or self brings that part through an unburdening. What do you want to do with that? Belief of I'm worthless, right? Does, do you want help getting rid of it? [00:18:00] If so, how do you want to get rid of it? Right? So like there's your cognitive component, the psychodynamic component, the relational component, you know had a client recently where you know, early childhood experience and the client had like bought a a comic book and was super excited about it and got absolutely berated by mom for spending too much money on it.
[00:18:21] John: So then go in being with this part. Can you get down? on this little kid's level and, and just see what this part wants from you. So anything he wants to show you or tell you. Well, he wants to show me a comic book. He wants to tell me about it. He actually knows a lot about it. He's actually knows a ton about comic books and about this story and about this character.
[00:18:41] John: Yeah, just let him tell you that. Just sit, just be there with him. Let him tell you that. Like crazy powerful how that is, right? And a lot of the basic skills therapists have or that I've had leading up to this point. I'm like, okay, maybe I'm, I'm well equipped to help. this client with that moment because I'm understanding relationally what's happening [00:19:00] or like what, what, what a seven year old need who just got berated.
[00:19:04] John: Right. And he's holding that comic book wondering, does anyone care about what I care
[00:19:08] Tammy: about? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like what your sister said, it's really the spiritual, right? Yes. As a psychotherapy model and it's, it's evidence based, I think that's important. It's clinical. And but it is the spiritual experience, like, right, like if you're witnessing this with a client or you're doing, or you're doing it yourself, it is, it is a spiritual experience, right?
[00:19:28] Tammy: For me to sit there, for me to sit there with my seven year old. Was showing me this comic book and, and there is something happening between us that, that I could never sort of explain or kind of this it's just, it is a spiritual experience and it is, it is. It is, it is life changing, not just for, you know, so that you stop drinking or you stop or you have different, it just, it is a different way of being in the world, but it's a different way of [00:20:00] walking through the world.
[00:20:01] Tammy: And I know we're sort of a part of me is saying, like, we're really kind of promising. We're promising this, like, this big that we're really selling it. Like, we're really selling this thing, but it really is that amazing. It really is. And I think that you and I both our lives are different because of IFS.
[00:20:18] Tammy: My life is very different because of IFS. And I think yours is too. And and we would not do what we're doing. And what we do, and we would not be doing what we do to spread the word about it and spread the word about multiplicity, that we all have parts, and this helps me understand why I keep drinking, right?
[00:20:38] Tammy: Why do I keep drinking when it's the worst thing for me? It's ruining my family and, you know, I've lost relationships and I've lost money. So why the hell do I keep drinking? Well, if I think of it as a part, right? A part of me that's drinking. Then maybe I can turn towards it and find out what's going on, what is happening, that you keep drinking.
[00:20:55] Tammy: Let me bring some curiosity to the part of me that keeps drinking or drugging or gambling or [00:21:00] doing sex addiction things or whatever that is. Shopping, eating. You know, yelling, whatever, beating, whatever that is, can I turn towards that? I know we have parts that hate those parts. We know we have parts that are ashamed of them and disgusted by them.
[00:21:16] Tammy: So we can sort of, we ask those parts to step back and we can go with open hearted curiosity and find out what is going on. And those parts often just want, want to give us relief. Want to end our suffering, want to help us feel engaged or alive, right? They really want big things for us. And this is the way they have found to do it for
[00:21:38] John: us.
[00:21:39] John: Yeah. I'm curious if you have thoughts on the role of shame in all this, because I think it's such a thick layer to a lot of our work and our clients lives and our lives and how it might show up is like, for instance, I've had a client recently. It's like they come to the session, they're like. Had a really hard week.
[00:21:58] John: I got into a huge fight [00:22:00] with my partner and the fight started ramping up. And then I was like, screw this. And I just went and like. Got super drunk or got super high right through through some work through that session We get to know that part that decided to drink or that wanted to drink and find that part of its intention in its role Is kind of protecting the client from shame right or in this case protecting the exile from shame We're getting flooded with shame.
[00:22:25] John: So we come in and nope I'm gonna cut this off right where this fight gets any worse. And so we just get as drunk as possible Hey, that makes a lot of sense that you did that Yeah. Right. So we don't come in and try to yank that part out of its role or out of its, you know, its method, right? Its method is to drink, right?
[00:22:44] John: But this, this piece about shame and about that, that part is not sure that the system could handle shame if this, if this fight keeps going. And so let's get ahead of it. Well, that makes sense. And in that regard, you're really good at your job, you know, nipped into the bud.
[00:22:59] Tammy: Yeah. [00:23:00] So, right. Right. So three thoughts and maybe we'll, I'll remember all three of them, but maybe I won't I want to say something about shame being like fire and firefighters.
[00:23:10] Tammy: And I also want to say something about shame being, and especially in a relationship with your partner, we sort of fight over who's more fighting. We're really fighting over sort of who's bad, right? You're bad. You're bad. You're bad. We're sort of just pointing at sort of bad who's bad. And shame is the idea of our badness being witnessed.
[00:23:29] Tammy: Right, and how much does that happen in our partnership or marriage or sort of, you know, I'm bad or you're telling me I'm bad. And then that badness is being witnessed by another. And that's where this sort of these exiles is really young parts who really believe they're bad or unlovable or unworthy that we all have them and they all have a sort of a different flavor.
[00:23:49] Tammy: But that's what they usually write. Like, I am bad. I'm unworthy. I'm unlovable. And so what happens is think of that is like a fire. And I know you know this, but sort of for the [00:24:00] listeners that like, that's like a fire and a firefighter. My brother's a Baltimore City firefighter and a firefighter will destroy a house to save the people in it, right?
[00:24:09] Tammy: They will destroy the house. They don't care and they will save the people in it. And so that is a fire. Shame is a fire. Right. That fire comes up. Wife is saying, actually, you're bad, buddy. And his part is resonating with that. Yes, I am bad. I am bad. I feel that there's the fire. And here comes a firefighter that's going to do whatever it takes to fight that fire.
[00:24:32] Tammy: And if that's Alcohol or drugs or sex or money or all the things I listed earlier, whatever is going to happen to get that fire because they will destroy the house to get to save the people. And so the firefighter, the drinker is coming in to take care of that shame fire. Yeah, and that's why there's such a connection between these behaviors that we, we don't like, and that actually really destroy our lives and shame because they're [00:25:00] really coming in in those moments of shame.
[00:25:05] John: Was that thought number one
[00:25:06] Tammy: or was that all? I think that might've been one, two and three. I think that was all three. Love that. I think our work is done here then I think it is. It was like a braid. I braided it together. Yeah.
[00:25:21] John: Oh, wow. Well, I just, I just love hearing you talk about it. I mean, like I said, it's funny enough because I have a, you know, perhaps a manager part that just kind of wants all the answers and wants you to tell me how to do the model.
[00:25:35] John: I'm like, Yes. Yeah. So I'm like, kind of benefiting from this. I'm like, Oh, I'm getting Tammy to talk about the model.
[00:25:44] Tammy: So the people that don't know the model, right, there's sort of these different parts of the mothers. They're managers. So there's the parts that are protectors and we call those managers and firefighters.
[00:25:54] Tammy: We just talked about the firefighters and they're protecting us. Right. So the managers come in. So those [00:26:00] exiles, those young parts of us, those shame, that fire that never gets right. It never gets. We never, fire never happens. Right. So I'm going to make sure that I manage, I manage my life. I'm organized. I sent thank you cards.
[00:26:13] Tammy: I call my grandmother every Sunday. Like I, I managed my life. I make sure I'm on time or perfectionistic or even critical managers or even drinking managers. Right. Like, let me have a drink before I go over somebody's house. Right. All sorts of before, right. I'm just going to make sure that I live a certain way.
[00:26:30] Tammy: I mean, even some of my spiritual. I was thinking about this today, like my parts of me that want to engage in spiritual practices. Sometimes that can be really manager driven, right? Like if I do my centering prayer, sit a 20 minute sit, then I'll be able to handle my day better. And that's true, right?
[00:26:47] Tammy: These parts aren't. They're not making stuff up, right? It comes from a true place, right? Like if I do, if I meditate, I'm actually gonna potentially, maybe, I never really know, but I'm gonna sort of be in a better [00:27:00] mindset or have a better day potentially. But they can feel manager driven, right? Like if I do this, then to make sure that I.
[00:27:10] Tammy: That, you know, that I never, that I don't feel sad or that I don't feel alone or that I don't feel scared. I'm going to do these things. I'll never feel scared. I'll never feel alone. I'll never feel bad. I'm a bad person. I'll never feel unloved, right? Here's all the things I'll do to make sure I never feel unworthy or unloved.
[00:27:26] Tammy: And so we call this managers. And then we have the firefighters and those are the ones that come in after that fire has been has been triggered. Right? Which is going to no matter how good of a job our managers do, we're going to get triggered. Right? Our families, the traffic. Whatever, right? I mean, I can be by myself and get triggered, right?
[00:27:48] Tammy: Doesn't matter, right? We're going to get triggered. It's our firefighters come in when we get triggered and they do whatever it takes to deal with that trigger. And so those are the parts that are protective. And then we have [00:28:00] a category of parts that need protecting and those are called exiles. And those are the ones we put in the basement.
[00:28:05] Tammy: We want to be like, we don't know you. We don't need you. We, we don't want anything to do with you. Right? Those are the ones that really have those beliefs. Right that I am bad. I am no good. Something's wrong with me. And those are parts that are usually locked at a certain age and are usually locked in a certain time or seen you sometimes in our lives.
[00:28:26] Tammy: And they really hold a lot of pain, a lot of vulnerability, but they also hold playfulness and creativity. So when we. When we go to them and when we unburden, you mentioned unburden, when we unburden them of this burden, they've been carrying burden of, of shame or, or unlovability, then they, what comes into our systems is play and creativity and joy and youthfulness can kind of come back into our systems because that gets locked away to, and we talk about this with feeling just sort of forget IFS for a second, [00:29:00] right?
[00:29:00] Tammy: If I'm depressed, Then I get on medicine, which is totally fine. And then sometimes I don't feel anything, right? I don't feel the good or the bad, which I get, I get that. And there's no, there's no problem with that, but sometimes got to play with that a little bit. I don't want to not feel anything, but that's what happens with our exiles.
[00:29:15] Tammy: We sort of, we send them so far away. We don't feel anything from them. So we don't even feel sort of the gifts, the gifts that they can give us.
[00:29:25] John: Like I was saying before, so many models, if a client comes into a session and they're super activated, right? Triggered, whatever, I kind of liking the word activated more lately they come in, they're super activated, right?
[00:29:36] John: Or they come in there like, I have bad news, like I drank this week. A lot of therapists are like, Oh boy. Okay. Right. Like we've got to control this drinking IFS therapist is like, great. A new trailhead, you know, as, as they're called, it's just like totally different way of looking at it. Right. If a client comes in, if they are completely flat, not connected with anything, right.
[00:29:57] John: Then it, it becomes a little hard to find your [00:30:00] footing. With an IFS session client comes in and they go, yeah, I'm really freaking out about this conversation. I have to have with my boss on Friday. Okay. Yeah. So can we, do you want to work on that? Do you want to focus? Can you focus in on that? Can you find that part, you know, right now?
[00:30:13] John: And then you're kind of off to the races with the session. Yeah. Is an entry point, right? Like, we're kind of looking for that in a session versus like looking to tamp that down of like, well, maybe deep breathe more like essential oils. I think are really good or like,
[00:30:30] Tammy: and all those things are fine. Like deep breathing and essential oils.
[00:30:33] Tammy: Yes, totally. We love some deep breathing and some essential oils. And there's nothing wrong with those things. And there's nothing wrong with the behavioral plan. There's nothing wrong with 12 step program. Like we're not saying, you know, sort of all those things are welcome. But yes, we can follow the activation with curiosity.
[00:30:49] Tammy: Right. Like, yes, there's activation here. Great. Let's follow with curiosity. And sometimes that actually feels really good. Even let's say for me, like, if I'm activated, one of the first [00:31:00] thing that's like, okay, clearly there's a part here. Let me get some curiosity about why I'm activated. And you joked around about sort of IFSers and how we kind of.
[00:31:08] Tammy: We do this, but the thing about IFS is we all have to be doing our own work, right? It's I did that week long with, with Dick and Cape Cod. I did a ton of work on myself. I immediately got in therapy. I immediately started IFS therapy because I wanted to learn the model, but the best way to learn the model is to do it.
[00:31:24] Tammy: on myself and get to know my own system, because that's gonna, that's gonna happen. So when there's activation in my system, I can follow that. Okay, what's happening for me? And I can, I can follow that with some curiosity. And then the other thing I want to say is, you know, when, when people do come in flat or when I, and I'm really noticing these parts of me, I'm calling them my parts that are asleep.
[00:31:46] Tammy: The parts of me that are disconnected or dissociative or numb, you know, those parts sometimes are harder to see, right? They're harder to catch because there's an absence, right? So if I can [00:32:00] notice the drinking, I'm not really going to notice.
[00:32:06] Tammy: But, but, but many of us have, those are, those are amazing protectors, the part that's like, I'm not even here anymore. Like, I remember noticing it, it almost felt like Superman. And this is how IFS can be really weird, but like, it almost felt like I would be like, la, la, la, everything's fine. And then Superman would come in, like swoop in.
[00:32:26] Tammy: And I'm like, I'm not here anymore. I mean, I'm aware. Like, Like I'm here, like I'm not completely dissociated, but it's sort of like this part came in, took away, right, took away all the pain, all the discomfort. Like if there's tension, there's conflict, it's like, I don't have to be here anymore. Right. This part that, so those parts can be a little bit tricky.
[00:32:47] Tammy: But I love them because they're so helpful. Right. And I, and I like to name them and I want you to describe it to me. Like, does it, it's like a wall, a disconnect, a dissociative, a fog, a cloud, [00:33:00] automatic, like what all these words are, you know, I, they give us power because I think, Oh, it happens to all of us to some degree.
[00:33:08] Tammy: So, you know, can I get to know that? Because I can get to know that part of me. And again. I'm not telling it. It could never do that. I just want a relationship with it. So it's not driving the bus so much. I'm so disconnected. There are times I want to be disconnected, right? Like if, if my mom and my dad are fighting, I don't really want to be here for that.
[00:33:28] Tammy: I don't have to be here for that. Right? If I'm stuck in the car, mom and dad are fighting. I don't have to be here for that. But if I'm at the beach and it's a beautiful day, right? And my partner's out there surfing and it's warm. I want to be present for that. And if my disconnect part is, is, is here, that's, I'm not, I'm not about that.
[00:33:48] Tammy: I'm like, no, you need to, I need to be here. I want to be present for this. Right? So, so I think it's, it's okay for us to sort of, this is the idea though, is we can have a relationship with these parts. [00:34:00] Right. And I can say, Hey, what's happening? I'm at the beach. Why are you here right now? What are you afraid would happen if you let me just be here?
[00:34:08] Tammy: Just let me be here right now. Doesn't mean you have to go away forever, but what's happening that you're here, you, is there something you're afraid of that I'm feeling or something that's like, what's happening that you're here? And I'm asking that with curiosity, right? If there's an activation, That part is there for a reason.
[00:34:24] Tammy: So I want to turn towards it with some curiosity. Like, why are you here? We usually know, like we usually know, but sometimes we don't. Right. Like, why am I so disconnected? Cause sometimes parts are so quick. We don't really realize, oh, wait a minute. Susie in the lunchroom just said this to me, and that made me feel stupid.
[00:34:42] Tammy: Or I felt some shame when she said this, all of a sudden I'm not really present. Right. I'm not really noticing what's happening. And Oh, I didn't even notice that I wasn't noticing, but that part came in for a reason. So if we follow it, we can sometimes find, find that that makes sense.
[00:34:59] John: [00:35:00] Yeah. It makes all the sense in the world to me.
[00:35:02] John: I often find that a cue for me that a part is. Activator to kind of taking the wheel is a physical cue, right? So tightness in my stomach or whatever. And a process I've developed is as I've gotten to know parts or even I've mentioned, like I've, I have parts that have. A lot to say about this show and doing this show and so I have I have a part up right now Who's like not so sure about should we do this show?
[00:35:28] John: Should we keep doing it? Is it okay to kind of be seen by all these people right or be on this microphone? It's a bit of a negotiation. It's a bit of a dance with that part in the moment. I am kind of internally sending it Some compassion that makes sense that, you know, that you're kind of up right now and some reassurance that I've got this right or I've got you know, I can handle this interview or we can kind of sit down at the table later and And come to a decision about are [00:36:00] we going to do this show or not?
[00:36:02] John: Right? And this You know this conference table image that I use a lot With my clients, with my own parts, right, of, of different parts, they all have a seat at this table. They all really matter to me. And I can kind of hear from them one by one. And sometimes them just being heard is enough for them to settle a little bit and soften.
[00:36:22] John: It's kind of like a customer service situation. I was talking to my client yesterday who works in customer service, right? If someone is like, and this came in and no one served me and I've been waiting here for 20 minutes. And it's like, sometimes people just need to be like, I hear you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:35] John: Yeah. Like this has been so frustrating. You've been sitting here and you've been waiting and wasting your time. Like I totally get that. Thank you for letting me, I'm writing this down. Tell me more. Right. You'll see a person come down. Yeah. Like
[00:36:48] Tammy: you just kind of hang there. Yeah because when we were little, in general, we weren't heard or seen or understood.
[00:36:56] Tammy: In general. Yeah. And so [00:37:00] when we are heard and seen and understood, our little parts are almost like, wait, you're listening to me. You're seeing me. You're understanding me. Wow. And that is often all I need. Right. All that. Right. Like that, that that's all my system needs because it's not something that we've gotten, like even the best, even, even in the best parents, right?
[00:37:23] Tammy: Like I'm a parent, you're a parent, like we've already screwed our kids up pretty much, you know? So we're sort of, we sort of just, we just sort of try to limit how much we screwed them up, sort of like how many burdens they have, or just sort of limit the burdens as much as we can. But yeah, I mean, I think that's it.
[00:37:40] Tammy: Right. So, so I love the table image. And I think the thing is we want to invite all the parts to have something to say about whether John should continue the podcast. Let's invite them all. And let's sort of hand the mic around who wants to say something and john you're at the table, you're looking out your own eyes and you're seeing your parts [00:38:00] or you're hearing how to see them but you can see them or you could just hear them and just sort of tell me.
[00:38:05] Tammy: You know, yes and no, we're not voting. We're just sort of, I want to hear, like, I want to hear and I want to understand and then you, John, the adult, the self in the system, if a decision needs to be made, it can be made by you or maybe there is a new decision. There is no decision yet. Right. They just needed to be heard.
[00:38:24] Tammy: And then you can kind of keep, keep moving forward. I realized this a couple of weeks ago that like that when I need to make a decision, it is very clear. And, and, but, but sometimes I sit and maybe for years, for years listening to my parts. And then it's like all of a sudden one day, I just know, I know.
[00:38:45] Tammy: Right. And I've done the same thing with my podcast. I'm like, this is a pain in the butt. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, but it's not been clear. There's not, it's been a clear, yes, it's been a clear, yes. Continue, continue, continue. That's been clear. But when there's been two times in my life, [00:39:00] significantly that I've been like, I need to end this.
[00:39:03] Tammy: And it's been really clear. But I think that's because there's been this. There's been this practice of really listening to my parts and yeah, so I'm sort of combining the listening to parts and sort of making a decision and kind of saying that the demand to make a decision is often a part. I think that's what I'm trying to say, right?
[00:39:23] Tammy: There's a part. Sometimes it's saying you need to make a decision. And that usually tells me that I'm not making any decision. Yeah, I'm not making any decision. I'm going to turn toward is the part. That's saying, I need to make a decision and usually that's because I'm in pain and it just wants me to be, it just wants my pain to go away.
[00:39:42] Tammy: And that doesn't mean that that's not true. Right? Yes. Making that decision would potentially end the pain, but it might not be the right time. Right so, and it's going to feel different if I make a decision, because the part of me wants to end my pain, I can do that, but making a decision from me and from my, my, my belly [00:40:00] and my heart.
[00:40:00] Tammy: It is a very different way of making a decision
[00:40:05] John: that feels very different, makes a lot of sense. And another element that I see is if something feels compulsive then it's often kind of led by a part, but again,
[00:40:18] Tammy: it kind of is. I mean, a little
[00:40:19] John: bit. Yeah. Like, yeah, I have a client who's like, you know, ambivalent about their, their drinking, right?
[00:40:25] John: And it's like if you're in the moment, it feels compulsive, right? Or like, I experienced a little bit of anger and then I drank, get rid of the anger, right? And that happens like that. Like you mentioned, parts act fast. They really do. Mine act really fast. I mean, you've seen this in session. I could have six parts.
[00:40:41] John: You know, all going like this really fast. And that can be a lot. So a good IFS therapist helps you slow that all down. Right. And kind of hear from one at a time. But going back to like the drinking thing if there is enough self as if there is enough spaciousness and you sit down and you look at the drink and go Is, is this something I want, [00:41:00] right?
[00:41:00] John: Like, am I gonna, do I want to drink this? Does this feel good? Is this, you know, decision I want to make? And it feels like you, with a capital Y, making that decision. That can feel very different. It could be that. It could be also just like responding to a text from your partner. Of like, you know, if you have that tension, you're like, Okay, well, oh, oh, you think I blah, blah, blah.
[00:41:18] John: Well, wait till you hear this. You know, you're like gearing up. And it's like part versus part, part versus part, which is basically like. Wound versus wound or wound interacting with wound is how I see it. Like it's beautiful. Yeah. I literally one of the biggest moments for me, this is so silly, but I know you know it doesn't matter was I was at the DMV a while back, I don't know if I mentioned this to you, but this is a big win for me and I sat there and I went and I had to get my car, I had to pay my taxes for the, for the car and I knew it would just take a few minutes.
[00:41:50] John: I got there and the line was super long and I'm like, okay, the line is super long. A year ago, I would have been annoyed about that already. And I would have had some tension back. Okay, this is long. Like, how [00:42:00] do I like work around this and maybe I should ask to speak to someone or whatever. And it took forever just to get the ticket and then to go sit down.
[00:42:07] John: I waited for two and a half hours. And people that had gotten there after me were going up before me, which again would normally activate a part, like a fairness part, right? Or just like, I've been waiting here for so long and I saw other people going up to the counter doing what I would have usually done.
[00:42:24] John: Like can I speak to someone? Actually, I've been sitting here for a long time. I just need to pay the thing, right? And it's like, it's all parts. So I literally sat in this freaking lobby for two and a half hours and just was like, I'm going to sit with my parts. And just like literally hear from them as they come up and they came up right like I'm wasting my time I could be with my daughter right now.
[00:42:46] John: I you know, I could be working on my business I'm like I have clients to see don't they know that like
[00:42:53] Tammy: Yeah,
[00:42:54] John: I'm an important person yeah, like how dare they Yeah. Waste my time. These people, this one's, this, [00:43:00] you know, this person is on their phone, right? Like they could be helping you right now. All of that was going on.
[00:43:05] John: Yeah. And I just sat and then after two and a half hours, they called my stupid little number and I walked up there and I looked at the person and I literally like had compassion for them. I'm like, gosh, this person's working a really freaking hard job and they'd been under these fluorescent lights for like nine and a half hours, right?
[00:43:20] John: Like not making good money and I just walked in like, how's your day going? They're like, oh. Fine. You know, what do you need? And like, here's my slip. And they're like, okay, it's, it's this much money. I just gave it to him. I was like, all right, thank you for your help. Have a good day. I walked out and I'm like, I don't know who that guy was, but that was amazing.
[00:43:37] Tammy: I'm very proud of that guy. I love that story. And so I think, I think what I want people to hear is we call that unblended. Right, like I, I am, I am listening to the parts of me around the table. There's a different, there's a difference between me and my parts. I am here and I'm watching, or I'm listening to [00:44:00] my parts, and I'm unblended Blended is I am the part, I'm the part that's pissed off.
[00:44:06] Tammy: It's unfair. I'm important. I want to see my daughter. I am that I'm feeling that my body's feeling that I'm thinking that I'm blended with that part. I am that part. And that's how we walk around. 99 percent of the time, right? We are the part, but then when there's a little bit of space, when we recognize that, we recognize that activation.
[00:44:25] Tammy: I, the Q I'm activated to Q my stomach hurts, the Q I've got some pain in my shoulders, the Q I just said, Oh my gosh, you're so stupid. The Q is I say the thing that I always say to myself that I'm used to. There's the Q that I'm in a part. Ah, okay. I'm noticing I'm in a part. I'm a little bit. I'm blended because I'm noticing I'm in a part.
[00:44:45] Tammy: All right. I wonder if I could sort of sink back a little bit more. I wonder if there could be a little bit of space between me and this part. What's going on? What's it like in my body? What can you tell me right now? Like what's happening? And more and more space, more space [00:45:00] between me and that part of me.
[00:45:01] Tammy: So I could get to know it and have a relationship with it. It's also beautifully you did a beautiful. I'm so proud of you.
[00:45:08] John: Well, so good. I can do it again next time. I go Because if I can't then I'm a failure. Oh,
[00:45:14] Tammy: yeah, that's totally true. That is 100 percent true
[00:45:19] John: You mentioned this phrase last time, you know, like let me lead I don't know if that's something that dick says whatever but that's that has worked for me or it was working that moment Right parts that really want me to go up to that counter And let them have it, right.
[00:45:31] John: Or like demand, like how much longer is it going to be or whatever. And it's like, really just sending those parts of reassurance. Like, I hear you. I know you want to do that. Just like, it's okay to wait. Or letting them know, like, I can handle this interaction at the register. And as I'm saying out loud, it sounds crazy.
[00:45:45] John: Cause it sounds like I'm talking to little people in my head. Not everyone does that. And it's pretty weird. And what about multiple personality disorder and whatever? But I'm like, it's, it's that, that reassurance just like, yeah, I'm, I totally hear you, I'm just, I'm just asking for you to let me do this interaction at the counter [00:46:00] and they did.
[00:46:00] John: I'm like, Oh my gosh, I think I'm, I'm a fully actualized person and I can quit therapy just need to get Tammy's approval to, yeah, that I've arrived.
[00:46:12] Tammy: Yeah. Yeah. I'll send you like an award. You can put it on your, on your wall. Yeah. Yeah. Like a little plaque. Yeah. I have those. I have those. It has like a gold star on it.
[00:46:22] Tammy: Yeah.
[00:46:22] John: Yeah. I'll take two of them in case I lose the other one. We've got like, yeah, a couple minutes left. We're over time, but Anything else you want folks to know or like final thoughts on today? I just so appreciate you sharing your wealth of knowledge. It's incredible. So fun to hear you talk about IFS and in some depth.
[00:46:40] John: And then of course, let people know a little bit more about your book, how they can find your podcast. And we'll of course have links to all this in the notes.
[00:46:47] Tammy: Yeah. So you can just go to my website, Tammy Sullenberger. com. You can get my book there. The podcast is there. You can get the book on Amazon or your local Barnes and Noble.
[00:46:57] Tammy: Potentially and [00:47:00] and the podcast is on Spotify and you can ask Alexa to play podcasts. It's, it's, it's on YouTube, not video, but the audio is on YouTube. So you should be able to find it everywhere. And then, yeah. My website, so, and I'm on Instagram,
[00:47:15] John: Right. And then obviously our show is mostly for therapists, therapists in private practice.
[00:47:20] John: If they're interested in learning, like working with you, are there any offerings right now in terms of consulting or are you? Yeah,
[00:47:26] Tammy: I mean, you can reach, you can shoot me an email, I mean, I am busy. Here's two things that I've done. People can shoot me an email if people are interested. And this is kind of weird, but this is this is worked out.
[00:47:38] Tammy: But if people are interested in getting a group of people together that either have done level 1 or they're waiting to get into level 1, like you said, there's this huge waiting list. I have had probably. Maybe five different groups of people approach me and say, Hey, would you do an hour long group for us?
[00:47:59] Tammy: And it's always worked [00:48:00] out like I've never advertised it. It's always worked out like people get their own group of people or people that have done training together. And then they'll say like, Hey, there's three of us, or there's five of us. And we want to meet for an hour, you know, once a month or once a week or once every other week, or whatever it is.
[00:48:15] Tammy: And then we do, you know, I do a little teaching piece of IFS and then we do work. And all the groups are always a little bit different. Sometimes they're just, I'm just doing work with each person. So, and that's, that's, that's always opens if people wanted to shoot me an email and then you know, I, because I don't really, I still have clients.
[00:48:33] Tammy: I still see clients. I have a private practice and I still see clients, but I don't take any new clients. I only take people that are looking for IFS consultation. So if you're a mental health provider of any sort, and you're looking for consultation to learn about, I fast issued me an email.
[00:48:50] John: Great. Love it.
[00:48:50] John: Yeah. And like I said, I mean, you've just been an amazing support and teacher and helper and guide and everything for me. So I, I appreciate it so much. And. [00:49:00] And helping me to bring it to my group practice has meant a lot to me, too. So thank you for that.
[00:49:04] Tammy: Thank you. It's been an honor and it's been fun.
[00:49:06] Tammy: So,
[00:49:07] John: well, thanks again. Thanks for listening to another episode of going inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on TOK at John Clark therapy and apply to work with me one on one at johnclarktherapy.
[00:49:25] John: com. See you next time.
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