IFS in Groups: Why Witnessing Others’ Healing Transforms You Too with Carrie Haynes
IFS in Groups: Why Witnessing Others’ Healing Transforms You Too
Group therapy offers a unique healing experience that individual work alone cannot replicate. In this episode, I sit down with therapist and group work specialist Carrie Haynes, LPC, to explore the profound impact of Internal Family Systems (IFS) in group settings. We discuss how group dynamics naturally foster self-energy, how witnessing others' healing creates internal shifts, and why self-leadership in a group setting is a transformative practice. Carrie shares insights from her journey integrating psychodynamic therapy, spirituality, embodiment work, and IFS into group facilitation—helping both therapists and clients unlock deeper healing.
Witnessing others' IFS work naturally activates our own healing process and strengthens self-energy.
Group therapy fosters belonging, connection, and healing in a way that individual therapy often cannot.
Great group facilitators balance structure with openness, allowing transformation to unfold naturally.
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Learn more about Carrie at: https://carriehayneslpc.com/
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Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] John: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me, trauma therapist John Clarke, for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, Going Inside is your companion on the path to healing and self discovery.
[00:00:28] John: Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy. com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
Carrie Haynes LPC is a licensed professional counselor and the creator of the web weaving psychology and soul in circle podcast. She has dedicated her career to specializing in group work, empowering therapists to facilitate transformational group experiences.
[00:00:54] John: Carrie's holistic approach blends clinical expertise with grounded spiritual practices, emphasizing the [00:01:00] healing power of connection and community. She's passionate about the potential of group work to create meaningful change in the world. Carrie, thanks for being here and Yeah, what's going on in your world?
[00:01:13] Carrie: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
[00:01:15] John: Yeah
[00:01:17] Carrie: It's a beautiful day here in Colorado we have it can feel spring and so that feels really lovely to feel March and we had a Almost 70 degree day yesterday and we were outside. So I feel like that's what's most present for me is just like spring and it's strange to be In the beauty of spring with the backdrop of a lot of tumultuousness in the world.
[00:01:43] Carrie: So yeah, that's what i'm Showing up with
[00:01:46] John: Yeah I appreciate the perspective. i've been in california off and on so long that I have a theory that when you have what I call real seasons You are even more grateful when the sun comes out. My [00:02:00] wife, who's native Californian, disagrees. She says she's grateful for the year round sun that we have here, more or less, but I don't think that's possible when you like, you haven't really earned it with a true winter.
[00:02:10] John: Also, I'm from Virginia where we had true winters, so you know,
[00:02:14] Carrie: You know what I know to get through the winter and then,
[00:02:17] John: yeah, to get through.
[00:02:18] Carrie: Yes. Yeah. And people are saying that we made it. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:22] John: It's funny cause like the past couple of times we've reconnected the, there's a lot of overlap in our backgrounds and kind of journeys.
[00:02:31] John: We both started out and had early clinical training in psychodynamic therapy and have grown into focusing on trauma, more holistic approaches. We both have an interest in IFS. I actually saw you in the zoom room of Chris Burris's I have fast training recently. It's like a lot of people, but saw your name on there.
[00:02:52] John: And you've seemed to have very gracefully like integrated all of you and your interests into [00:03:00] your current programs and you, I'm sure it does. It's not. Doesn't feel as seamless as it has been. You put a lot of work into it, but walk me through like how you've integrated these shifts over the years and just what you're up to lately.
[00:03:12] Carrie: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That's amazing. You were there. Yeah. I'd love, I really loved that workshop too. Yeah. And IFS is just coming more and more into my world and into my work in groups and with individual clients. Yeah. Yeah. So So, like you starting out with a psychodynamic group work frame, and groups always been my specialty since grad school, I stumbled into it, but but immediately fell in love with the intimacy and the connection and the juice that could happen when we're together like that in community.
[00:03:49] Carrie: Just felt like an energy and a possibility that wasn't as potent in individual. Yeah.
[00:03:55] John: And
[00:03:56] Carrie: so I loved that part and there were parts over my [00:04:00] career though in psychodynamic that weren't fully resonating for me. And I think some of that is just, we've evolved. We're bringing the body in, spirituality is coming in, we're talking about different identities and psychodynamic.
[00:04:13] Carrie: Wasn't evolving or at least I wasn't exposed to it in that way. So I was searching for different modalities and also benefiting from them, like my own work, I'm really drawn to different practices and I'm like you, I think where. I'm an explorer and I want to experience and learn new things.
[00:04:32] Carrie: And so I'm always, I'm a lifelong learner and interested and want to incorporate the things that are benefiting me. So it has not been as seamless as it. Seems there's actually been a long time where a lot of the group work that I was doing felt very separated. It was like,
[00:04:48] John: yeah,
[00:04:49] Carrie: here's my spiritual circles where I'm doing more embodiment and meditation and stuff like that.
[00:04:53] Carrie: And then here are my interpersonal process groups and here's the clinical work. And at some [00:05:00] point I realized that, for me, it. It's not separate. It's all one. And so that is what's formed into my current offerings now where I am so grateful for the foundation of psychodynamic work because, this, like a group is a group, like you get humans together and there are dynamics.
[00:05:18] Carrie: And I am so grateful for learning how to work with transference and counter transference and all this stuff that still happens. And yet I feel like the bowl has gotten bigger and my ability to meet people in different ways feels exciting and juicier. So I do have a foundation that I use, which is based on all of these different modalities blending together, circle and some process stuff, group dynamic stuff embodiment practices, things like that form kind of a basis.
[00:05:51] Carrie: And then I teach and train people also to incorporate who they are. That's really my passion is empowering other therapists who maybe have been as [00:06:00] scared of group work or been skeptical to one. Take a chance and open their mind to that work But also to see how they can bring their unique way of being into this Bowl that I can offer to support them in working with groups.
[00:06:17] Carrie: Yeah
[00:06:19] John: The opportunity of being Self employed well along with the some of the stresses and burdens of being self employed is you can really have it all and create your dream job and in your case like really integrating so much of your background and your personhood and Yeah, I just, I love seeing that all come to life and seeing the journey, or even as your brand evolves to match who you are today and what you're about.
[00:06:45] John: So I love that. And the piece, the spirituality piece feels very much like a missing piece. And in, in my world and a lot of what we talk about on the show is in the realm of healing from trauma, in a lot of other cultures and indigenous cultures [00:07:00] Working with spirituality and working with spirit is just built into healing and trauma recovery and You know in our culture.
[00:07:09] John: It's not so Second nature, but and as therapists, it's an interesting thing to Weave it in right or to do it in a way that doesn't feel and then you have therapists that are like explicitly, let's say faith based or say I do Christian counseling, but then when you open it up even wider and integrate spirituality in a, in even broader way it can make things pretty interesting and really give clients permission to bring their spirituality into the room.
[00:07:40] Carrie: Yeah. That was one of the hardest things for me is I was I think afraid to step out and share. And so that was part of my hesitation is this spiritual world and the work I was doing spiritually was so meaningful for me. And yet I was, at a university for over 10 [00:08:00] years where, we were very evidence based practices and all of that stuff.
[00:08:04] Carrie: And I felt I was leaving a part of myself at the door at times or sliding it in with clients that I felt were. Or there's like this real rigid way that we're taught to bring spirituality in, which to me. I think we need to be aware and thoughtful about how we do it. And also there was a part that when I learned the circles, just this basic concept of moving from the head to the heart, it doesn't have to be like talking about what you believe, but just letting the heart lead or an IFS, the concept of self, like this.
[00:08:41] Carrie: This is like human beings get this and understand this human beings get what it's like to be with a Facilitator who's in their heart or a facilitator who's in their head and it changes the whole dynamic of the group Yeah, so that was empowering and yeah, I think for me That's when my journey really shifted when I [00:09:00] just stopped hiding and was like, all this is what I've got and I'm gonna some people might not like What I'm gonna bring but
[00:09:07] John: yeah,
[00:09:08] Carrie: I'm gonna bring it all.
[00:09:10] John: I love that. Yeah the other side of me and the parts of me that are not as integrated is over here I have my kind of clinical work and trauma work and then I have a Business coaching business for therapists called private practice workshop Some people listening know that some people don't some people don't care or if you're a therapy consumer that doesn't apply to you but it's like the point of a brand is to attract the right people and also repel the wrong people, right?
[00:09:34] John: That are not a good fit for what I do, right? So those strong signals can be a really good thing. This idea of head and heart is a really interesting one and something I think a lot about especially given where I practice out here in Silicon Valley and we work with a lot of folks with strong intellectualizer parts and especially in the realm of trauma, people come in and first of all, it feels safer in their head [00:10:00] and they're so used to solving problems in their head.
[00:10:03] John: And so naturally they do that in therapy, right? And they come in and this idea of I'm going to think my way. out of my trauma. And that's a paradigm that I have to break down gently pretty early on. And one way I do that is just constant invitations back to the body and really to, to the heart.
[00:10:22] John: And then of course, when we're doing parts work, really making sure we have a lot of that heart. But it can be a shift at first. And because figuring stuff out has been so effective in their life and then other domains of their life. And then yet it's it's not working here and it's not working to heal that little boy inside me,
[00:10:41] Carrie: yeah. And do you, I have this sense of you, this may be wrong, but just maybe the way I know you, that, Even though you have these different aspects that you as a person are really coming through on each of these places. So it's also that you're, you are your brand, right? And [00:11:00] you've done so much of your own work in all these areas that you're bringing all of it to business coaching, to.
[00:11:07] Carrie: therapy with your clients, all of that.
[00:11:10] John: I think that's true. And even the way I approach business coaching what I'm really thinking about is helping people unlock the wisdom that's already inside of them. So it's even though I might know for instance, a lot of technical knowledge about SEO or like how to, market a website or whatever.
[00:11:28] John: That's less often what the work is really about. It's really more like therapeutic business coaching and helping people work with the parts of them that are perfectionistic or that fear rejection or fear confrontation or fear success, right? What will it mean if I'm more successful or if my business is successful or if my team members don't think I'm paying enough or whatever.
[00:11:49] John: So to me it's just all therapy. That's just who I am in every realm. And I'm in that helping. role professionally, but yeah as much as I'd love to make this about [00:12:00] me I don't want to make it about you, which is tell me more about like the foundation of the circle program. And I know you've mentioned before, and we've talked about the teacher that you worked with for that, but what is the foundation?
[00:12:14] Carrie: Yeah, so I'm going to go back and just share that. So Jalaja Bonheim is the teacher, and she created a type of group work called Circle Work, and it actually started in the Bay Area when she was living there. And was searching, for a more feminine and again, feminine, not meaning women, although I do a lot of women's work, but just a softer, more heart saying, the qualities traditionally associated with.
[00:12:45] Carrie: The term feminine, but that we all have I was searching for something more like that and Tara Brock, who's always been one of my teachers. And I really benefit from everything she puts out into the world. I really love her style. And [00:13:00] she sent something out about Jalaja's. And I just immediately lit up and Jalaja does these trainings in Ithaca.
[00:13:09] Carrie: Unfortunately she retired. So no longer, but I was like, you know how you can feel that full body? This is for me. I'm going, that was just let me right up. And I knew I was. I was going to be there and circle work is a type of modality that there are seven pillars of circle work and the pillars associated with circle work are the need to transform patriarchy is a big part of circle work.
[00:13:38] Carrie: Another part of circle work is incorporating spirituality. So that's important. Another part of circle work is. Expanding the on our individual healing. So we're really looking at that. Our individual healing affects the planet affects the globe that we're doing this in service of the planet. The other pillar of circle work [00:14:00] is embodiment so that everything is brought back to 1 of challenges.
[00:14:07] Carrie: Early influences is she was an Indian temple dancer. She went to India and studied temple dancing and she's such a very embodied person. So her circles started out as movement circles and then moved into bringing in. other types of sharing and psychotherapy, psychotherapeutic work. So those are some of them.
[00:14:29] Carrie: I don't know if I want to go through all of them, but
[00:14:31] John: yeah,
[00:14:31] Carrie: connection is a cornerstone too. So there are books and there's a lot of resources that we can put if people are interested in learning more about circle work. There's several books that has written.
[00:14:43] John: So
[00:14:44] Carrie: there's access, but so when I went to her training in Ithaca, it just felt like something opened because it did have the aspects of group work that I've always loved, but there was a different [00:15:00] frame.
[00:15:01] Carrie: And that frame was that you are already whole. You've just forgot. So there was no striving or trying to get somewhere. Let's figure out what's wrong and do the work on it. But the work was happening. It was just reversed. And so there were all these reminders. And what I felt like when I was in the circle were that these parts of me I could see.
[00:15:26] Carrie: But they were sort of, moving back and what I would say in IFS language is there was so much self energy that it just resonated my self energy and so my parts relaxed and self came forward without really even working with them. Sometimes parts would come up and there would for different individuals at different times and we would work with them, but it naturally arose.
[00:15:51] Carrie: Because the self energy in the group was so strong and the practices were designed that way and it was just a [00:16:00] beautiful and transformative experience and after that I was like I'm coming to every one of these and I want to learn how to really offer this more.
[00:16:10] John: Yeah. Yeah. That's beautifully said that parts naturally want to unblend actually, and so even just being in a an environment and a group with a lot of self energy.
[00:16:23] John: Self energy begets self energy, right? And that unblending just starts happening on its own. And the more that happens, the more true nature comes through. And so that innate healing propensity that we all have is tapped into. And then the question is of course, like, how do we tap into that more?
[00:16:42] John: Or how do you tap into it? Once you leave that group and go back home and you're dealing with life and kids and stress and taxes and all the bullshit of life,
[00:16:52] Carrie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I did learn is that the circle, being [00:17:00] there like retreat, but it really is a practice.
[00:17:03] Carrie: And I like practice it daily that I don't have to be in circle, but I really see the circle as like a spiritual practice that I tune into every day. So how do I shift from. Head to heart, but I still want to honor. It's like I'm honoring my head. Like my head is working hard for me and I need that. But it's in service of the heart. I want the heart to lead and the head to follow rather than the reverse. And so
[00:17:30] John: I really
[00:17:31] Carrie: see what I learned there as a practice. For my everyday life.
[00:17:36] John: Yeah,
[00:17:37] Carrie: really did change the way I move through the world
[00:17:41] John: Yeah
[00:17:42] Carrie: and I hear that a lot now from the trainings that I do with the people that come and learn is they first come and think they're gonna learn a modality and they do but what they come away with is yearning for this because it benefits them and their life and the way they interact with their partners and [00:18:00] their friends and themselves
[00:18:02] John: Yeah,
[00:18:03] Carrie: and then it just naturally comes out the offering it is it's just a natural Extension of how it's changing them on the inside
[00:18:13] John: Yeah, going back for a second to the patriarchal piece, I think a lot about theory and, where we came from.
[00:18:23] John: And again, going back to the psychodynamic piece, which is and really almost all of the major modalities that at least were taught when I was in graduate school were built by, created by old white men. And, This idea, even I went to Philadelphia and did all these CBT trainings, even trained with Aaron Beck himself.
[00:18:44] John: Who like this idea that you're, where does pathology come from? You feel bad because your thoughts are wrong, right? Or they're distorted and not based in reality. We have to untangle those. Those thoughts, which if you want [00:19:00] to put that into a parts perspective it can be pretty handy, right?
[00:19:03] John: Parts of you hold beliefs that are rooted in some painful experience way back then, right? And those parts are getting activated today when your partner says, Hey, why didn't you unload the dishwasher or whatever? That might be one of mine. I've
[00:19:17] Carrie: got that one too. And
[00:19:18] John: okay. And then, again, this idea that we can just untangle our thoughts and be rational and think a rational thought, which is that I'm not worthless.
[00:19:28] John: Or if you challenge beliefs like that, like core beliefs and the client says I have this belief or this fear that like I'm worthless and the CBT therapist goes let's. Show me the evidence that you're worthless and then they start to list a bunch of things I got fired and sometimes my partner's not happy with me because I didn't unload the dishwasher, right?
[00:19:46] John: I feel like my friends don't call me enough and I have to call them a lot or whatever it is Okay, show me the evidence that you're not worthless I have a job and like I'm pretty good at basketball or what whatever it is, right? [00:20:00] and that might be helpful, but Nothing has really happened yet, right?
[00:20:05] John: You've just illuminated the beliefs that are maybe driving the depression or the social anxiety or whatever it might be. Yeah, you get where I'm going.
[00:20:14] Carrie: I do. I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I think is so helpful in some of these newer modalities or just the way we're looking at the world is that we're moving in some of these from this individual focus on,
[00:20:33] John: you just need
[00:20:34] Carrie: to think different.
[00:20:35] Carrie: You, you're the cause of your own suffering, which I guess is true in some, but I like the frame of, and it's. I think Chris Burris says this in his book, like it's not the individual's fish, but the water that they're swimming in. And if we can have that kind of context, and I think in group work, that's one thing that I feel like is so beautiful because you can see the water.
[00:20:58] Carrie: You can see that, [00:21:00] oh, this isn't just me, it's her and him. And they are inherently like lovable and worthy and. But the belief is all of ours. So we start to unwind the collective beliefs that are rooted in patriarchy and that hurt us all. And it's harder in the individual therapy room to see that this isn't my suffering.
[00:21:22] Carrie: This is the suffering. And I just have one thread of it and I'm suffering from it, but it's not mine or something wrong with me. Rather than I just have these thoughts. Which are true, it's true, but it brings a lot more compassion when we can see, one, how those were created and that, how could we not have those thoughts, given the context that we're all in together.
[00:21:47] John: Hey, it's John, just popping in to say this is the last chance to sign up for my upcoming webinar, helping you avoid burnout. By using IFS is going to help protect you from burnout, help you have a sustainable career [00:22:00] and help your clients get better results faster. I hope you'll join me for this webinar.
[00:22:05] John: You can learn more and sign up with the link in the description. See you there. I, I work with a lot of men in my practice. They just naturally choose me because they make a big assumption that I get it, right? That I probably get what it's like to be a dude in this world. And to whatever extent I can I do, through my own lens.
[00:22:25] John: And something that I see a lot is men that carry a tremendous amount of, That shame might actually be show up as anger. That anger might be the thing that landed them in my office. And someone in their life said, you have an anger problem. You need to go to therapy, but it's actually tremendous shame.
[00:22:42] John: Shame, and again, burdens of worthlessness, not being enough, right? I'm not successful enough, I don't make enough money. Whatever it might be, this ultra competitiveness of the world. Like the toxicity of capitalism, of I've never, I don't have enough, therefore I'm not enough. And then the tremendous isolation that men face [00:23:00] around, I need to deal with this shit on my own.
[00:23:03] John: And it's actually, it's humiliating just to be here and talking to this John guy, even though like he's pretty nice and I don't think he's judging me, but parts of me are horrified that I'm even here because being here means I couldn't fix this on my own. I tried, right? And I couldn't. When I'm sitting down with a lot of men, I'm sifting through all these layers for what could be weeks or months, just to try to get to, that they're more vulnerable parts, they're the parts that are really holding this woundedness. And of course, just being in society is continuing the woundedness and that all of these, all this emphasis on individuality and individualism.
[00:23:40] John: And pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and capitalism. They're just so brutal to the psyche. And I feel like a lot of what your work does is really the counter to a lot of that, which is community togetherness, heart energy. And what a wonderful counter to this other vortex that, that a lot [00:24:00] of us are in,
[00:24:00] Carrie: thank you.
[00:24:01] Carrie: Yeah. And I find that it's how do we get men to allow themselves to show up for things like that.
[00:24:09] John: Yeah.
[00:24:10] Carrie: And Invite them in a way that feels okay. And I'm still figuring that out that I've worked a lot with women. And I think partially, cause that's very comfortable for me. I feel drawn, but I feel, I hear over and over again with the women that I'm working with what about our men?
[00:24:28] Carrie: Like we know, as a mother too, of a 13 year old boy. Like I am keenly aware of what he's taking in right now and also the ways that I could reinforce it inadvertently because I'm, I haven't deconditioned myself from, capitalism or patriarchy or whatever. And so just watching this.
[00:24:49] Carrie: And I just feel like there's such a yearning from the women therapists that I've worked with, is how do we serve men? Because, just in our field, there's also less men doing the work. [00:25:00] So then if we are just waiting through men, To pull the other men out it's going to take a lot longer and I'm curious what you think about that.
[00:25:08] Carrie: But I have questions about I actually asked another male therapist who was on my podcast. I'm going to actually publish it this week. His name's Dewey Freeman and he does a lot of gestalt work and works with like men's groups a lot. And I'm like, can we. Can we work with men like can I do a group for men when I don't have that identity and I don't get it?
[00:25:31] Carrie: Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:33] John: I think part of that and again going back to our psychodynamic roots is We check our own transference, right? So I supervise You know, I've got nine clinicians in the practice now. And if a client, a clinician of mine, let's say a female clinician, is having transference with a male and finding him really off putting, or prickly, or whatever it might be we start by Helping the therapist, look at what's coming up for them, right?
[00:25:58] John: Or what thoughts and feelings do you [00:26:00] have toward men in general? And a lot of the heat that men have taken in the past few years. And in some regards, very rightly and in other regards, it's meant that a lot of men take their suffering to an even deeper isolated place and feel like I can't talk about my suffering because it doesn't count because we're the ones carrying the privilege.
[00:26:21] John: So that. while it is true that we're the ones carrying the massive amounts of privilege and we're the ones that have built the patriarchy and now we're also suffering from it, right? So I, I think part of it is like just thinking about what comes up for you to work with. with men. For me, ironically, men are way harder for me to work with than women.
[00:26:42] John: It's like I grew up with a sister. My best friend in high school was, it was a girl. Like I, it was just I've always gotten along better with women. I'm in a profession where I'm mostly surrounded by women. Like my grad school cohort was mostly women. Ironically, most of my professors were men.
[00:26:58] John: But I think about this stuff [00:27:00] all the time, right? And again, just these layers that we have to sift through. But again, even some of the men that come to my office, their competitiveness will play out with me and they will want to, they'll talk really explicitly about how much money they made last quarter.
[00:27:13] John: And I can tell they're looking for a response from me, right? Or they're hoping that I. I'm impressed by that, on the other hand, I had a client recently who after an entire session of talking about some issue with work and this is where our psychodynamic roots can come in really handy. He just admitted I'm humiliated to share this with you, right?
[00:27:33] John: I'm really wondering what you're thinking, right? Just straight up asking me, right? Do you think I'm being ridiculous? And I responded directly to that and very compassionately said, I don't think you're being ridiculous. I think you're in a really tough place and you're scared to talk to this person at work.
[00:27:50] John: And it makes sense why you're scared, and we just worked through that. But again if he hadn't named that, I wouldn't have quite known that layer was there and that it was actually playing out with me. And again, as much as I think [00:28:00] I'm like warm and approachable and a pretty nice dude, all of their male stuff plays out with me too, right?
[00:28:06] John: And vice versa, mine plays out with them in terms of my own burdens of incompetence and worthiness and all that.
[00:28:12] Carrie: Yes, absolutely. And I've had so many men where I have this like default where they might be the only man who's in like I do ketamine assisted psychotherapy groups and I'm noticing more men will come for the psychedelic work like that feels a little safer to come in that way.
[00:28:29] Carrie: And great. And so they'll come and be in that circle and sometimes they might be the only, and I'll say, I think there's one other male and they're like, actually, yeah. I that it's all women and me for them that you know I've heard a lot of men say I don't it might actually bring up more to have another man in the group than it is For though it could
[00:28:50] John: be super activating.
[00:28:51] John: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:28:52] Carrie: so they've said, You know and a lot of men want to see female therapists too for them for that reason so that makes sense that plays out [00:29:00] Yeah.
[00:29:00] John: It can be both really activating and also the eventual place that they might need to be for true corrective emotional experience, which is like really being held maybe by one guy like me, maybe ideally by a group of men sitting in a circle, right?
[00:29:17] John: Where they can bring these parts that carry these burdens of worthlessness and go, there's a part of me that is so terrified that I'm worthless, that I'm not enough, or that I've had all this success in business. And there's still a part of me that doesn't feel like I'm enough, or part of me that feels like I'm always about to get in trouble, even though I'm 57 and got all this stuff going for me, so for them to bring that into a group like that's where the real healing can happen. Cause again I'm just one person. And if I can resonate with them and say you're not a burden, right? Like you are enough, but only some portion of it gets in.
[00:29:51] John: Because what they're really wondering is like in the greater context of men, it's am I lovable? Am I actually lovable or am I actually? [00:30:00] Reprehensible, right? It's the language and the beliefs that are part told is usually that rudimentary, right? It's like that, you know that binary
[00:30:11] Carrie: Absolutely.
[00:30:12] Carrie: Yeah. And I do think there's something so corrective about a group because, I've had many clients who will say to me I believe you, but you're supposed to say that. Like that's, you're a therapist, like that's your job. That's not what everyone, but once I get them to be in a group and they start to get the exact same feedback and compassionate responses from so many others.
[00:30:34] Carrie: And even here. The exact same story. It's a lot harder to dismiss. Totally. Their belonging, their lovability. So I couldn't agree more that I think men need those spaces with other men to really start to take it in and believe in their belonging and to actually let go of some of this burdens that keep them apart.
[00:30:56] Carrie: Yeah. That's the other thing is that reinforces that I have to do it on [00:31:00] my own and so many men are so lonely. They're so lonely cause they're just doing it all on their own and it's really exhausting. Yeah.
[00:31:09] John: It's an epidemic that is that we're still in the thick of. And so I think about a lie. I appreciate that you've been willing to talk about it here today.
[00:31:17] John: The last thing I'll say on this piece and not having planned to like make this episode about men is years ago when I graduated undergraduate, I got in a Honda Civic and drove with five, five dudes out to Colorado, not far from your neck of the woods in Estes Park. And we were in this group, this men's group with basically older men who were like mentors, one of whom was a therapist.
[00:31:40] John: And. One of those like nights sitting around a campfire this mentor, this therapist told me, John, a man is two things, strong and gentle. The problem is most men only get one right. It's really hard to get both right. And so I think about that a lot. I'm also thinking about [00:32:00] your husband who definitely has both.
[00:32:01] John: He definitely gets both. So you've done well there. And yeah, I just see that playing out again. It's more of the dilemma of like how to be both,
[00:32:09] Carrie: it is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that takes us to the group stuff, too, that is so beautiful that's what I see with group facilitators, too, is that a good group facilitator needs to be both things, strong and gentle.
[00:32:23] Carrie: And I think most only get one right. And so there's a lot of times where a group facilitator can be very good at being insightful and setting the boundaries, but they miss it when it's time to offer the compassion. I always say like we want to hold the big bowl. So there's a lot of spaciousness and love and acceptance and all of that, but we also need the knife to cut through when things are happening and to direct the group and be strong when things are getting out of control because a group can be.
[00:32:56] Carrie: Used for, it's very intense [00:33:00] and that can be for better or worse, that intensity can really cause harm if we don't know how to be skillful. So I think about that in terms of, I have a lot of people these days are like, you just need to know how to hold space if you're a group facilitator, not true, it's actually not true.
[00:33:17] Carrie: Holding space is very important. That is foundational. And you also have to have the skill to be able to facilitate.
[00:33:27] John: It's the, the Carl Rogers stance. It's like that, that, that condition. Of positive regard for your client is necessary, but not sufficient, right? It's a necessary condition.
[00:33:37] John: We can all agree that like holding space is necessary, but is it sufficient enough and especially in a group setting where a single person can affect that group can and does affect that group dynamic. And in an instant, right? Or come, someone comes in with a very different energy or very toward energy that can change everything.
[00:33:54] John: And as a group facilitator, you might need to be a little more active than you would be as a therapist, right? It's not [00:34:00] necessarily, the best thing to just let it all play out with the group members, figure it out because keeping safety, establishing safety and, keeping safety is a big part of it.
[00:34:09] John: And again, especially in the world of trauma therapy and people in that group with the trauma history, that, that sense of safety is a constant question mark for folks. When they're on this, when they're on their healing journey.
[00:34:22] Carrie: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:24] John: What else is missing from the conversation?
[00:34:26] John: There's a part of me that's did I make this whole thing about men? And is that a very man thing to do? Is that a very toxic man thing to do? But what else is missing from the conversation around your work and grooves?
[00:34:38] Carrie: I think what's alive for me right now that I want people to know and be thinking about and hearing is that we're at a time.
[00:34:46] Carrie: I believe that people are yearning for connection and to come back together. There's COVID. There's a lot of stuff going on politically where gathering and being connection in connection is important. And I [00:35:00] also think our field as a whole is looking at more indigenous ways of healing, which have always happened in community and and also the decolonizing of therapy and looking at more of the ways that our communities of care can be.
[00:35:19] Carrie: incredibly healing. So I feel like there's a real call right now to group work. And I also think it's a real opportunity for those of us who have been in private practice or have been working in isolation and other. It's just, it's hard work that we do. And when we do it behind closed doors on our own, we also suffer That burden of doing it on our own.
[00:35:42] John: Yeah.
[00:35:43] Carrie: Cause this really isn't just about men. I don't think you made it about men. I think I was going there because I'm, I think that comes up for me with you because I see you as Somebody who I can talk to about how do we get this out to men, since that's part of your work. Cause I think [00:36:00] everybody needs these spaces and that's really my hope.
[00:36:03] Carrie: And so part of my call too, is for therapists, because I think a lot of therapists have this belief about themselves. Like I could never do a group or I didn't like group or I don't, that's not my thing. And I want to challenge that and have us consider. Given the skills that we do have, they're very transferable to be able to challenge ourselves to offer more group work.
[00:36:25] Carrie: Even when it's uncomfortable, I think there's a real need and I think it meets our needs as well as the client need for community and not holding it all on our own, that we can. Maybe transform our practices and the way that we work for the better of everyone by leaning more into group work that makes sense for you,
[00:36:48] John: yeah. Yeah, I think the time is now. The risk of burnout for therapists is tremendous. It remains. Not to mention I saw some stats a while back that there's projected to be a [00:37:00] shortage of therapists. There's not enough people graduating from graduate school to meet the demand. And so also a lot of the good news is a lot of stigmas going down around people accessing therapy, right?
[00:37:12] John: Especially younger generations. They're like, Totally cool with it, and so we're gonna have to meet that need in a way that doesn't burn us out and group is a Wonderful, solution to that a lot of what therapists struggle with is feeling like they need to Have something to say when their client comes in with their hopelessness or their problem or their dilemma of what should I do?
[00:37:34] John: Should I break up with my partner or not? And the temptation for a therapist to go, it sounds like you should break up with him. We've spent three sessions talking about it. It sounds like you should break up with him or whatever. Just that, that. That, that trap that we can fall into of being this wise person for this client versus helping them tap into their own wisdom, or in the case of a group of a collective wisdom, or just a witnessing of their suffering or [00:38:00] their stuckness and letting the group do that as the healing agent is just, wow, what a relief for the therapist and way more sustainable, than the alternative.
[00:38:09] Carrie: Absolutely. Yeah. And it also opens up the possibility, which I've been really enjoying is co facilitating and doing stuff with other people. Then I get to learn from them, see their style and also feel supported. And I also get to be so much more creative like that. Just this week alone. I had circle at my space where we did movement and some ritual and some sharing and some writing.
[00:38:37] Carrie: It's it gets me to just. be out of that frame that we can get stuck in. And I also have a colleague who I really respect and admire that I'm doing a ketamine group with and just the magic that can happen and creativity in that environment and also accessibility for clients. It's like these clients may not be able to afford ketamine treatment, but because we're doing it in a group [00:39:00] that's well supported.
[00:39:01] Carrie: The report I get over and over again is that they enjoy the group and get more out of the group than they get out of the individual sessions. And it's more accessible to them because we can charge less for it, so it's just really practical. And there's just some energy that, that really shifts.
[00:39:19] Carrie: So I. I've just, I said to Jeremy who, John and I, John, I met John through my husband Jeremy. Yeah, I
[00:39:27] John: should have said that earlier. I'm like randomly commenting on your husband. He's a really good friend of mine and he's. A psychologist and a business consultant the testing psychologist. com So yeah, I should have said that from the beginning
[00:39:41] Carrie: but what was I even saying about him?
[00:39:44] John: Something very good something
[00:39:46] Carrie: Very good. Yeah
[00:39:49] John: about facilitating or I don't know what I was saying,
[00:39:53] Carrie: but anyway, I lost it, but that's how we know each other. But anyway, it's just been nice to be able [00:40:00] to Oh, that's what it was. I was telling him that I am more satisfied right now with my practice than I've been since I've been in private practice.
[00:40:08] Carrie: And I, because I am getting to do a lot of different things in just the right amount, which is like my personality. So I do consulting. Which I love. I, very similar to you, teaching and training. I did that at the university for all those years and when I went into private practice, I just wasn't doing enough.
[00:40:26] Carrie: So now that I'm doing more of that, feels really good. But I'm also doing clinical work, in person, live, which. Really fills my cup and then working with some group practice owners and helping them to get their group program started. Just, I'm just a person who loves having different outlets and it keeps me juiced up
[00:40:48] John: and
[00:40:49] Carrie: it just has felt great and it's probably the first time because I went into private practice in 2017 and I had such diversity in my work at the counseling center and then [00:41:00] COVID, all that.
[00:41:00] Carrie: So it's like the first time that I feel like I have. Just the right amount.
[00:41:04] John: Yeah.
[00:41:05] Carrie: And group work allows me to do that, so it's great.
[00:41:09] John: Yeah, it takes a while to calibrate all those areas but you can do it. Again, you can design this. This job for yourself. Yeah, it definitely was
[00:41:18] Carrie: again. Like we talked about integrating my work there were you know There were mo there were moments of out of balance, right?
[00:41:25] Carrie: And it's always like a tip over right? You just have to there's no illusion that it's gonna stay perfect. It's more like this But right now it feels great
[00:41:36] John: That's great. Okay. We're about out of time, but let me know first of all, like what offerings you have right now. This'll be out in the next week or two, but yeah, what offerings do you have right now that you want to talk about?
[00:41:46] John: And then of course, how can people find out more about you?
[00:41:49] Carrie: Yeah, thank you. One thing I'm really excited about, I'm going to be offering a new online circle and this is for people who just want to be in circle [00:42:00] and it's once a week. And it's called the hearth and it's a place for people to come.
[00:42:07] Carrie: And it's only an hour and 15 minutes in the morning once a week. So it's a daily practice and it's a powerful format that I've been practicing with. So I'm going to be offering that out for anyone who's interested in just being in circle. It's not a training. And then if you are interested in.
[00:42:23] Carrie: In learning the type of group work that I offer and mentor and teach in the fall is the retreat and I require that people come and experience it. So it really is a 100 percent experiential retreat. So you can really embody the work and feel it. And then if it. It feels like something you want to offer.
[00:42:43] Carrie: There's a mentorship that comes after. So the retreat is this October, I think it's the 5th through the 7th. Don't quote me on that, but it's that first weekend in October and it's going out probably in a week. I think it'll be open [00:43:00] for registration. So it's a very 15 spots cause I keep it really intimate.
[00:43:07] Carrie: So if you want to learn this work. That would be the place to come
[00:43:11] John: great. That one is just for women.
[00:43:14] Carrie: Yes. Yes. Just for women. Yep. Let's see. This needs to be,
[00:43:20] John: cause I have
[00:43:21] Carrie: men who are asking about it and that is the next step is finding ways to, because there is something really sacred and special about having only women.
[00:43:31] Carrie: And I think also there's room and a need for having an all gender. We're interested in that training. So that's on my radar.
[00:43:41] John: Yeah. Great. I look forward to learning more and seeing what you come up with next. Carrie, thank you again for doing this and we'll put links to everything in the description of course, and encourage folks to check out Carrie's work and thanks again, Carrie.
[00:43:55] John: Talk to you soon. Thanks
[00:43:55] Carrie: for having me. It's great. See you
[00:43:57] John: soon. Hey, just jumping in really quick to say this is the [00:44:00] last chance to sign up for our upcoming webinar on how to avoid. Burnout by using the IFS model using IFS can help you put your client in the driver's seat can help deepen Their work help them get better results faster And most importantly it can protect you from burnout so that you can have a long Sustainable and thriving career as a therapist or practitioner.
[00:44:23] John: Hope you'll join me click on the link in the description and I'll see you there Thanks for listening to another episode of going inside If you enjoyed this episode, please and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.