Healing Trauma: Integrating EMDR & IFS Therapy ft. Daphne Fatter
Healing Trauma: Integrating EMDR & IFS Therapy ft. Daphne Fatter
Join us this week on "Going Inside" as we explore the powerful combination of Eye Movement Desensitization (EMDR) and Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy for healing trauma. Learn how these two modalities integrated together to bring deep healing, as we speak with therapist Daphne Fatter.
Key Topics Discussed:
1. Consent and Relational Approach:
- Daphne underscores the significance of a consent-based approach in therapy, particularly when integrating EMDR and IFS, highlighting the need to contract with different parts of the client's system and foster a relational therapeutic environment.
2. Addressing Shame:
- The conversation delves into the role of shame in trauma and therapy, examining how shame can be deeply embedded in trauma and affect various parts of the client's system, while also discussing how it can be a learned response influenced by socialization.
3. Parenting and Preserving Self:
- We reflect on the challenges of parenting and preserving a child's natural qualities of compassion, empathy, and creativity, amidst societal expectations, drawing parallels to therapeutic work in honoring the client's innate self-expression.
4. Offerings:
- Daphne shares her upcoming offerings, including CE training for therapists on integrating EMDR and IFS, consultation groups, and individual consultations, while also discussing her plans for publishing a book on EMDR-IFS integration.
For more information on Daphne Fatter visit: https://www.daphnefatterphd.com/
Interview Transcript:
John: [00:00:00] This is Going Inside, healing trauma from the inside out. Hosted by me, licensed trauma therapist, John Clarke. Going Inside is a weekly podcast on a mission to help you heal from trauma and connect with your authentic self. Tune in for enlightening guests, interviews, immersive solo deep dives, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations.
John: Follow me on socials, @JohnClarkeTherapy on Instagram, JohnClarkeTherapy.com. TikTok and YouTube and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Dr. Daphne Fatter is an IFS certified licensed psychologist and an approved IFS clinical consultant. She is also EMDR certified and an MDRA approved consultant in training.
John: With nearly two decades of experience, she specializes in trauma treatment, including PTSD, complex trauma, and grief. [00:01:00] Dr. Fatter completed her doctorate at the Pennsylvania State University and doctoral, postdoctoral fellowship at the Trauma Center affiliated with Boston University School of Medicine under Dr. Bruce Fatter. Bessel van der Kolk. She authored works on trauma healing and is known for her insightful presentations worldwide. You can learn more at daphnefatterphd.com. Daphne, so much for being here.
Daphne: Thank you so much, John, for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
John: Yeah, great. Maybe you can add a little more color to the bio.
John: It's Quite the impressive clinical background and academic background. So you can tell you care a tremendous amount about your work and about what you do, but more on just kind of how you got here and your, your story with IFS and EMDR, which is a bit of what we'll cover today.
Daphne: Yeah, sure. So in terms of how I got here, I mean, I.
Daphne: My interest in trauma has extended. I mean, it's been, I think, lifelong, but also just [00:02:00] in terms of my career really started out actually teaching meditation. I taught mindfulness meditation like a long time ago, like over 20 years ago before really mindfulness had a big pop, you know, big surge here in the United States.
Daphne: So and when I was teaching mindfulness classes, I actually had two different students, one who had a. Panic attack during practicing meditation and another student who had a lot of flashbacks, traumatic flashbacks start to come up. And so just ethically speaking, I really decided to pursue becoming a therapist to continue just to be able to support people when they're meditating was my initial intention to, you know, move through traumatic reactions or panic attacks or whatever was happening in their nervous system or their body.
Daphne: And then I. You know, went and pursued my master's and then pursued my doctorate. And my whole, you know, really, my interest has been trauma really from the beginning. I think those were very formative [00:03:00] experiences for me to be in a sort of two, you know, facilitator role in a group setting where people are having trauma reactions to something we're doing and really wanting to be able to support them.
Daphne: So that's sort of where my journey started. Yeah. And it's, it's had lots of twists and turns and here I am.
John: Yeah. Well I've also, you read your chapter on IFS and EMDR, and I want to hear about how you've helped therapists integrate these two models. I'm one of those people who integrates both.
John: I came to EMDR first and then IFS. I do have a question though, around this, this experience of mindfulness and someone when folks have a negative reaction to kind of going inside, you know, in IFS terms or having an internal focus maybe talk about what that was like, or even what you've learned about that process in your work now, in terms of helping people have this internal focus and how to be careful with that.
Daphne: Yeah, sure. Well, I think. You know, [00:04:00] with the wisdom of IFS really honoring the protective system which, you know, mindfulness meditation has a different orientation you know, in terms of healing, but in terms of IFS and the wisdom of IFS, I think honoring the protectors and the protective system to try to help support people's experience of going inside.
Daphne: Yeah. Yeah. And there's so many different ways To do IFS in terms of like, sometimes people do need their eyes open. Sometimes they do need that orientation to present day to you know, or bringing in, you know, a parts map or integrating it with art therapy or sand tray therapy, or all the creative ways that people can better understand their internal landscape in terms of their system, even prior to kind of going inside, so to speak, to do more insight.
Daphne: work with IFS. So I think there's just a lot of, of creative ways with IFS to really hold that [00:05:00] container, that therapeutic container for whatever people need.
John: Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've heard, you know, clients describe even last week I had a client, a new client who came in and said, I feel like I've tried everything including meditation.
John: And every time I close my eyes and notice, you know, my thoughts. I just get berated with thoughts of you're terrible. No one likes you. You're unlovable. You're always going to be alone. And then, you know, the client says, just noticing that, because that's what this meditation is telling me to do. Just notice it, right.
John: Or let it go or mindfully observe it. Right. Is, was extremely distressing for this person. Right.
Daphne: Yeah. Right. Totally. Yes. And while, I mean, I am, you know, meditation again has its place on the map in terms of modality and research supports that. And yet we know specifically for people with PTSD, the research supports guided meditation being the most helpful as opposed to people doing independent practice, unless they have a lot of support [00:06:00] for that because of just what you're describing.
Daphne: Yeah.
John: Yeah. Yeah. I originally came from the world of clinical hypnosis. You know, that was one of the first tools I picked up in grad school and started using that quite a bit with folks. And so there is this aspect of kind of going inside and mindfulness, but then the, you know, the practitioner kind of leading the person through an experience.
John: So You know, there's, there's a guided component to that. But certainly some, some overlap with what we're talking about here.
Daphne: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I'm not trained in hypnosis, but yeah, I'm interested in
John: it. Yeah. Yeah. So. Did you, did you come to EMDR first and then IFS or what was over there?
Daphne: Yeah, early. Yeah. Just like similar to you. Yeah. I was trained early on. I mean, I'm very, I feel very lucky to be trained. I was actually trained in my master's program. You know, as a, I did it as a, you know, adjunctive training. Yeah. And so for just in the beginning of [00:07:00] me doing practice, I had a very trauma informed lens because of the EMDR training.
Daphne: And so, and then came to IFS. You know, later. So I think my, you know, I'd be curious about your experience too, doing EMDR first and then IFS. I know for me, as many EMDR clinicians, when they do IFS training, they can't help but think of EMDR, right? Yeah. Yeah.
John: Yeah. I'm, I'm curious and I'm always happy to share more about my experience, but I'm curious when after learning EMDR and using that modality Was it that you felt like something was missing and then you found IFS or you found IFS and said, you know, I, I can make these two work together.
Daphne: Yeah, I didn't. Let me think about that for a moment. I didn't necessarily feel like there was something missing with the EMDR. However, working with more complex trauma clients When I learned IFS, particularly just honoring the protectors, I mean, and befriending the [00:08:00] protectors, including dissociative parts, including firefighters suicidal parts prior to doing EMDR, just provided just so much more, just felt like more attuned therapy to the client system, but also more effective therapy in terms of their ability to trust the process and to integrate, you know what was coming out of EMDR.
Daphne: So I didn't feel like anything necessarily something was missing. I think for me, with, for clients who maybe didn't respond to EMDR, didn't like EMDR for whatever reason, felt like IFS was sort of that bridge to help support more effective EMDR treatment. Yeah,
John: that's great. I know in, in your book chapter, you have this really satisfying chart of comparing the two and kind of drawing these lines.
John: It's very satisfying to see it laid out like that. Not to put you on the spot, just to recite that chart. But can you tell folks a little bit [00:09:00] about Yeah, how you've integrated the models, I guess, and the actual, you know, connecting the dots with with each.
Daphne: Yeah, sure. Well, I think, you know, referencing that chart in the book.
Daphne: I mean, seeing the two models side by side and seeing opportunities where in each phase of EMDR, there's opportunities to lean in really as much as either is clinically warranted or just would help the process, particularly for clients that are doing IFS first. before EMDR. And so I think at each phase of the model you know, lining them up, there's just a lot of choices, a lot of choices for clinicians to make.
Daphne: And I know in my clinical experience with it and guiding consultees to integrate it and doing trainings with it and supporting clients in it is, is really important. You know, just to use that principle about how much self energy is present at any given time particularly once we get to phase four trauma processing you know, just getting curious around, okay, is this, is this [00:10:00] blocked processing?
Daphne: Do we want to offer some form of an IFS oriented interweave and holding that. you know, sort of principle of from an IFS lens, when people get stuck in trauma processing in phase four EMDR, it's really about that self depart connection being disconnected. So how can we support that connection, even if we can bring in a little curiosity or a little perspective or you know, just more connection between, You know, the client self, any aspect of self with the target part that's present.
John: Yeah. So, one piece that sticks out is or a piece that I have, I had found missing with EMDR. Once I learned IFS was kind of unintentionally bypassing protectors, right? So just coming in. Okay. The client says they're here for EMDR. I also find that a lot of clients that go and learn about EMDR, they've Googled it.
John: They heard about it from a friend. They [00:11:00] come in with a lot of excitement and a lot of anticipation. They're like, this is going to be the thing to finally heal me. Once and for all, right? And so a lot of times they're very eager to start or to go right to the tough stuff, right? And start the reprocessing or go to the worst memory, right?
John: There's a lot of, yeah, this, this eagerness. And sometimes As clinicians, we can kind of follow that, right? Like they, they seem ready. We're going to go for it. On one hand, we want to kind of trust their judgment. On the other hand, it can feel pressured, you know, when some clients come in and they just, it's like, I just want to get this out of me kind of sense.
John: And then it ends up, you know, kind of that ends up dictating the pacing of the work.
Daphne: Yes, I've had that happen too. I mean, definitely EMDR has the risk of bypassing protectors without an integration like IFS. Yeah. And then I've also had, yeah, clients that are so ready for healing [00:12:00] and have tried many different things come to EMDR and may have that sense of urgency or ultimately really that sense of despair in their system.
Daphne: And that part is sort of driving the boat in terms of really wanting to dive in. So I've had that happen too. Yeah, right.
John: Why is it so important to work with protectors first? I mean, I know this is kind of IFS you know, one on one, but for folks understanding, or folks trying to integrate the two models, or even clients listening who are wondering which model is right for me, what, yeah, why is this piece so important?
Daphne: Yeah, so we want to honor that for survival, we all have, I mean, as bringing the IFS lens parts move into extreme roles and states that they can get stuck in. So even after a trauma is over, while the brain naturally compartmentalizes due to stress for survival. Part of what happens from an IFS lens perspective with that compartmentalization is that exiles move into the [00:13:00] unconscious that are holding the pain of the trauma and protectors take over to help us function and survive.
Daphne: And so, when a trauma event is over that's, you know, what IFS really is around is helping reorganize the system to be self led rather than parts led. So, very frequently, in terms of, The importance of bringing in protective protectors and respecting them is for one getting consent of the system which is really a trauma informed lens that that IFS brings around.
Daphne: Let's make sure, do you have any parts with fears or concerns about us doing EMDR on this trauma? Even a simple question like that can be very important. But we want to befriend protectors and get to know them so that we're really ultimately trying to prevent what IFS calls backlash, which is where when parts, particularly protectors feel like they have been bypassed, then [00:14:00] realistically, firefighters take over this system.
Daphne: And that's when mental health, you know, symptoms can get worse temporarily, particularly firefighter parts come out, which might be more suicidal parts, self harm parts, substance abusing parts in, in an effort to self regulate, right? And so, yeah, by getting, permission from the protectors first. We're actually setting up a very consent based treatment contract to do EMDR where everything is, we're making it very conscious what we're doing.
Daphne: So we're bringing protectors that may not the, the client may not consciously be aware of. We're bringing them explicitly into the client's awareness. So we can leave space and time for that process to get consent.
John: That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Even, you know, even if you invite the client to make that open invitation of any protectors that have, you know, fears, concerns about what we're doing here.
John: Even if there's no response, it's best to [00:15:00] check, right? Exactly.
Daphne: Yeah. Exactly. And sometimes, I mean, similar to the client that's really ready to get better and may say, yes, yes, yes, I'm ready. Let's start. Sometimes there can be a delayed reaction with protectors too, where it's like, yes, some protectors might really want that.
Daphne: And then other parts may be like, wow, are you really ready to do this? You know, we want to explicitly ask and leave that time and space to really have the client check.
John: Yeah. Also, also considering how it's often Managers that bring the client to therapy in the first place and go, Hey, I've had enough or my drinking is out of control or myself.
John: The self harm thing is getting scary or I keep making a mess out of my relationships or whatever it is. And then it brings them to therapy. to therapy, right?
Daphne: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And even, I mean, with the consent of the protectors, we are also we're bringing in, I mean, to me, it's also about developing working alliance and [00:16:00] trust.
Daphne: To me, it's also about signaling to the client. We're going to respect the pacing that your system needs here. If some part says, no, let's find out what their fear is. Right. What are they scared is going to happen. And that really also helps support developing working alliance. And that we're working together in this process.
Daphne: The client's not alone figuring out, are they ready? Are they not, you know, just cause they say they're ready. Are they really ready? You know, so we're working much more as a team as well.
John: Yeah. Yeah. And I, one thing I've noticed over the years about EMDR and I was first trained in like, I guess, 2015 or so is when I first came to it, I, I have, the way I learn, I have to kind of simplify things in my mind to then understand it and start using it, right?
John: It's like, okay I thought of it as this brain therapy. There's this exposure component, right? We have the client hold the memory and then we start the bilateral stimulation. helps the memory go in long term storage. That was my way of kind of [00:17:00] oversimplifying it. I hear from a lot of EMDR clinicians today who kind of have come to see it as a more complete model with all the different components, whether it's integrating the body and the somatic piece, there is the memory piece.
John: There's also the, the cognitive piece, right? The belief that is You know, associated with the memory or in this case in an IFS terms that the, that the part is holding. Yeah, I've just noticed that kind of evolution and in, you know, over the years,
Daphne: I've noticed that too. Yeah. Which is really exciting.
Daphne: And I fully Agree with that, with it being a very integrative model, particularly because it does also honor body memory and as well as the cognitive, the emotional. I mean, it's a bottom up model. And it, it doesn't ignore the cognitions as well. So it's not like an either or thing. It's very, to me, it's very complete in that way as well.
John: Yeah, can you say more about the I don't know, just maybe riff for a [00:18:00] little bit on parts and memories. So when we're working with a traumatic memory and we know that memory is in the brain is the idea that, that exiles hold the pain and the memories. And that's really. What we're doing with EMDR is working with the exile that's holding it.
Daphne: We really are. Yep. So we're working with the exile, but with EMDR, we're really working with exiles and protectors. So we're working with whatever parts, if I'm holding up my hand here to represent a memory network in the brain, I know some people do it this way. I like doing it this way. So, but if we start in one place, right, start with either the worst memory of a person, trauma, the first or the most recent and sort of traditional protocol decisions around that, it's going to go, you know, wherever it needs to go.
Daphne: The brain will take the person in EMDR, wherever they need to go for healing. And from an IFS lens, we can really be aware that on that memory network are [00:19:00] exiles and protectors. So it's going to go wherever it needs to go. Yes. And so in terms of the exiles holding the visceral pain of the trauma yeah, I mean, that is absolutely correlates with what we know about neuroscience and the nature of traumatic memory.
Daphne: Yeah. Right. In terms of it being, for one, it being encoded in the same state that it's acquired in, which is realistically a higher arousal state. So when we're working with exiles, whether it be a pure IFS, or if we're integrating IFS with EMDR, we are working with more high arousal. memory, which again is why we want to get consent of the protectors, right? Before we open that door.
John: I find that there's often surprises in the work. And I, you know, I, so I run a teaching practice here in San Francisco, or we're all trauma therapists. Everyone's trained in EMDR and most also in IFS. And. [00:20:00] What I see is a lot of times when clinicians are learning EMDR because it's a protocol, and for a lot of clinicians, it's the first protocol they've ever learned or used, myself included.
John: And there's concern about like sticking to the steps, right? And then what I found is over the years, the way I do EMDR is a lot better. More fluid and following the client and even that C quality of of courage for the therapist to trust that wherever this goes, we can handle it together. Because it is We don't really know where it's going and the memory piece it can be quite a ride.
John: Once you, you start in one place and end up somewhere very different or tap into this memory network and it can be surprising for both the therapist and the client.
Daphne: It can be. Yes. Yet again, another reason to befriend those protectors first, right? Because you're opening a door and you don't know where it's going to go and the client doesn't know where it's going to go.
Daphne: And so, yes. So I totally am with you on that. [00:21:00] Yeah.
John: I also hear clients have concerns about, well, I'm afraid of if I start EMDR, I'm going to uncover a memory that I'm not aware of, right? Some repressed memory. Is that something that you've heard or experienced? Or how do you think of Yeah. Repressed memories or whatever you might call them.
Daphne: Sure. Yeah. So I have had that happen. I've actually, to be honest, had that happen more with IFS than I have with EMDR. And maybe that's, you know, I'm not saying that that's everybody's experience, but that's just my clinical experience. It certainly can happen in EMDR.
Daphne: Well, let me, let me actually take that back. I have had that happen. in EMDR, but it's just been more information, I guess. Sometimes people will have a somatic memory that you can still process in EMDR. They may not know everything that happened and more information may come forward. I've had that happen in IFS where Just, you know, exiles were discovered particularly around [00:22:00] trauma that were not known, you know, until we until we, you know, got to know those exiles.
Daphne: So in terms of repressed, repressed memory from an IFS standpoint, where you can really consider that as exiles, right? Exiles are out of the consciousness. They're in implicit memory You know, oftentimes people are surprised when they first are working with exiles even though there might be some familiarity to some aspect of the exile, whether that be a belief or a burden or a somatic feeling or a visceral fear or something like that.
Daphne: But really befriending the exiles is absolutely can be working with repressed memories.
John: Yeah, yeah, I find that in this, the witnessing component of the unburdening sequence, if If and when the client is truly open to whatever the exile wants to share, and there's an open invitation that's offered of, ask the part of what it would like to share with you, whether it is a thought, a memory [00:23:00] whatever it is that there's often, again, some surprises there for both clinician and client if we're really open to to that witnessing piece and hearing the story.
John: Of, of the part some just some incredible moments that I've, you know, witnessed in session once, once we're there.
Daphne: Me too. Yes. It can be very magical in terms of its healing potential and, and the layers too. I think one of, one of the many wonderful things about IFS is its pacing. And it really goes with the client system.
Daphne: So just as you're describing with that very open ended invitation for the exile to share and show whatever it wants the client to know, the client self to know, it just can really attend to the fine tune layers of really what that was like for that exile. You know, whether it be misattunement, Or nonverbal experiences that that exile took in and I mean just so many different layers that can really be attended to in [00:24:00] IFS.
John: It almost seems like you know, and again, same with EMDR. I had to learn this early on with IFS of pacing and slowing down and slow down and slow down and. Go slower than you think you need to go. That was something that Frank Anderson said a lot of this, this training and in Sedona and I I've taken that to heart more and more and realize when we really embody, if I, when I really embody that and help the client slow down and embody that parts are kind of ready to unburden, they're ready to tell their story, right?
John: They're ready to come into the present. On the other hand. If I have any agenda about that, or I'm looking at the steps, you know, the protocol and going, okay, well, the next step after the witnessing is the updating, you know, and Yeah, that's, that's an agenda, you know, and that's very antithetical to, to, to IFS, I find.
Daphne: Yes, absolutely. And I had that same experience happen in my, when I learned to EMDR, right? EMDR, as you said, it was very protocol oriented. It's very [00:25:00] normal for EMDR clinicians when they're first learning it. Of course, to stick to the protocol, right? To really get it in their bones first before really following the client, you know, with their pacing.
Daphne: But I, similarly with IFS, I know when I learned IFS, I definitely had parts that were like, okay, almost had, you know, were like military parts that were like, we got to save the exiles, you know, we want to get there. And in my own development in my own, you know system have really, those, those parts have, Way stepped back.
Daphne: And it's like, it's just really about the client and their, their process and their system. Yeah. Yeah.
John: Yeah. It's, it's incredible. I you know I was working with a group of students recently. I helped teach in Derek Scott's program stepping stones and You know one of the therapists, they were doing their practice sessions and encountered a, an exile rather surprisingly for, for the whole group.
John: And the exile was very much scared and not wanting to turn towards [00:26:00] the, the, the client and of course the client or the perhaps even a therapist part wants to do something about it. Hey, let me help you feel better. Let me help you out of that corner. Right. And again, that is a. Again, kind of self like part but does have an agenda.
John: And so the, the part of the challenge was what would it be like just to hang out in the same room as that part who is scared and facing the corner and doesn't want to look at you yet. Given that this is the first time the two of you are meeting, doesn't it make a lot of sense that this part isn't necessarily coming, going to come running into your arms?
Daphne: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's very true that befriending process with the exile could look so many different ways depending on the pace of the exile. Yeah.
John: Yeah. And like, what if we just hang out here for a bit, right? In other words, nothing has to happen today. I find that that, or even that phrase has Often helps parts to relax and therapists to relax in their own, you know, IFS work with their clients of [00:27:00] of letting go of agenda.
John: That's just something that's been on my mind a lot
Daphne: lately. Yeah, that's great. I find that helpful to in terms of, yeah, we're not, there's no expectation of anything that needs to happen here. You know, what's it like to just be with this part, you know, yeah, absolutely.
John: And another thing I wanted to ask you about, and I, I hear different perspectives on this from folks like you've been really in the IFS community for a long time and are really experts in an IFS world is the teaching of regulation skills.
John: Seem people seem to be, excuse me in kind of different places with this. I'm curious kind of where you land with it and how you look at that in your work.
Daphne: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, and I want to honor dr Richard Schwartz is original, you know, with the original model, pure IFS is around contracting with parts for emotion regulation.
Daphne: That's a pure IFS. Perspective, right? You can contract with exiles not to overwhelm. You [00:28:00] can contract with protectors to, you know, watch on the sidelines in terms of navigating emotion regulation. You know actually as I've integrated EMDR and IFS I have found in terms of regulation, I still bring in, I mean, I still bring in coping skills.
Daphne: I'm not, you know, I'm definitely an integrationist in that way. So I find that in terms of regulation, it's really about self depart relationship. If there's enough self energy there, and there's been like, for example, in the example you just gave, Where an exile may need a lot of repair with self made in an, may need an apology from self may need, you know, a lot more time.
Daphne: But it's, how can we really honor the system where it is. And so sometimes with really how I am doing IFS now, particularly as I integrated with with EMDR. is supporting in terms of emotion regulation, whatever coping skill feels good for [00:29:00] that particular part. So for example, I'm thinking of a particular client as I say this when I have a particular client.
Daphne: So, you know, when an angry part gets activated, how can that angry part feel validated by the client and get that self depart relationship going through a coping skill? So for example, I'll bring in I'll bring in, you know, star, which are butterfly hug, right? Slow butterfly hug for connection to help that angry part.
Daphne: Now, Hey, it's okay to feel angry, you know, to get some self depart connection going with a coping skill. And then for the same client, when a sad exile gets activated inviting that. You know, inviting that part to journal, right? So that the client is with the part in journal. So really honoring. So, so in terms of how, again, this is sort of my, my perspective, not a pure IFS perspective, so I want to honor that.
Daphne: But I, I really bring in in terms of coping skills and regulation, what does this part need from you right [00:30:00] now? What would feel good to this part? And oftentimes it's about connection or it may be about, you know, more of a traditional. kind of psychotherapy coping skill to help with regulation might actually feel really good to the part.
John: Yeah. I haven't heard it put that way and, and it, it really makes a lot of sense. It's really like bringing you know, coping skills to the part, but really honoring that self depart connection. Yeah, I haven't really heard it put that way. I think you know, going back to another moment that happened in our, these practice sessions recently that I was working with these therapists is you know the client sat down and kind of said, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm really nervous about this.
John: I'm nervous about doing this session. Right. And there's people watching. And so what the client said was, The therapist did was what a lot of therapists do, which is let me help you calm down basically, right? Like, let me just help you breathe and focus on your body and do more deep breathing until you feel calm, right?
John: In other words, kind of get rid of the symptom, [00:31:00] right? So that we can then work together versus can you focus on the part that is scared right now and kind of go toward it, right? And so, you know, honoring that. honoring the symptom or same thing. If there was anger there sometimes we're not comfortable with anger.
John: It can be intense and we want to help them kind of manage it right. Like clients that, you know, come, they say, I mean, I'm here for anger management, right? And there's a lot of therapy that kind of focuses on that, right? And like tamping down the symptoms.
Daphne: Right? So that would be much more of a kind of a traditional psychotherapy approach. And yeah, My integration with EMDR and IFS is really about being with the part. So in that example of like, okay, instead of can the therapist guide the client to just be with it, is that okay? And what's that like for this part to just have, know that it's not alone. You know, I'm here, you're here. We're both here with this part.
Daphne: Can this part take that in? So relational [00:32:00] support. And then, you know, if it would, if the. If the part wants it, you know, sometimes parts particularly like angry parts want to be heard and want to be witnessed, you know, and so asking them to, you know, or trying to manage them would be not therapeutic, right?
Daphne: Yeah. Asking them to step aside or any of those interventions. It's more about let's hear from this part. Let's get to know it. Yeah. Right. So I think the relational Aspect of befriending and being with is, is a form of emotion regulation in and of itself. And yet there are some times where coping skills I think can be integrated in once that self to part relationship has been established if it feels good.
Daphne: And I say that, you know, if it feels good to the part, right, we're not trying to get rid of the part. We're more having, what's it like for the part to experience the being with and actually know that self can't help. Yeah.
John: Yeah. I find that some people are surprised by and there are [00:33:00] other parts work models where the idea is to kind of control the part or have it contained or whatever.
John: Right. I've, I've, I've heard that. And people are often surprised that that's kind of not the goal with IFS. It's not about getting rid of parts by any means, or even like externalizing them, just putting them in a chair so you can kind of put them in their place or whatever.
Daphne: Right. Exactly. Yeah. And IFS is, I think, more unique in that way, in a parts model and, yeah.
Daphne: You know, sometimes you know, sometimes that might just be such a new orientation for how to relate to oneself, right? It's such a different way of relating to one system to really say like, Oh, let's just be with this and just get to know it. And what's that like? And how's the part responding? Yeah,
John: yeah, I, I know that a word that comes up a lot in this work and also around trauma and even in these interviews that I do is is [00:34:00] around shame.
John: And I'm, I'm curious, kind of how what that brings up for you or how you think about about shame in the work.
Daphne: Yeah. Well, so for one I want to honor Martha Sweezy's recent book, which is on my book list. I've not yet read it yet, but it's on my list. Yeah, so yeah shame is I mean in my clinical experience it is Entrenched and embedded in trauma in both The protective system, as well as the exiles.
Daphne: I mean, it's there. It's what keeps it, what keeps things locked in. I think that keeps parts in their place, so to speak, like, in their roles as well as you know, exiles in, you know, keep holding their burdens. So I think it's part of the entire trauma process. Yeah, when things get really frozen in time in that way for folks like that have PTSD.
John: Yeah. Yeah. I've been [00:35:00] thinking about this a lot lately. And also I've mentioned on the show, you know, I have an almost four year old and so big feelings are part of every day. And also of course, you know, it brings up my own parts that have reactions to big feelings, right.
John: Or to anger, right. Or the first time, you know we served her some food and she didn't want it and she threw the plate against the wall. Right. And I had a part that reacted to that part that wanted to say that's completely unacceptable. And then in doing some of my own work, realizing that my experience of anger, especially as a kid, because I had big feelings was when I was angry or showed anger, it was.
John: Go to your room until you're not angry anymore, right? Go to your room until you can somehow calm your seven year old nervous system down by yourself and then come back out when you're presentable and going to be a good boy. So this created you know, many trail heads for me in terms of my own experience of anger, or the first time decades [00:36:00] later, I was in graduate school and experience anger.
John: Kind of for the first time again, or like outward anger, you know, and got, got really mad. I had a fight with my partner at the time or whatever. And was just horrified by that and just realized how many layers there were there inside of me around how unacceptable that feeling is.
Daphne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you.
Daphne: I yeah, I think anger is a common feeling that's been sort of depending on again, culturally speaking can be kind of culturally exiled. Yeah.
John: Yeah, well, that's a big piece too, right? And I also work with a lot of men and a lot of the men, what brings them to therapy with me and just speaking stereotypically is, is anger, right?
John: Or they had a fight with their partner and got really angry and the partner said, you have to go to therapy. So now I'm here, right? And I have the anger. And I also have this thick layer of, of shame around the anger and about the fact that I'm [00:37:00] here asking for help or whatever it is. And that's kind of where we start.
John: You know, yeah, but a lot of this pressure that I've experienced around men to have it all together to be calm and collected at all times. And you know, whatever it may be. And so this can feel like a real violation of, of that, you know, that, that cultural expectation.
Daphne: Sure. Yes. Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
Daphne: Yeah. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I work with a lot of men as well and really enjoy that work. And so, yes, I've had to similarly, and also as a parent when my kids were younger and had really big emotions. Yes, it's such a lots of trailheads available to working on my own parts around. My comfort level with anger and big feelings.
Daphne: So I hear you again
John: in my limited, you know, four years of parenting, I can say for sure that it feels like shame is a learned response, you know, even like being [00:38:00] embarrassed, you know, my daughter will do silly things or fall down or do something that an adult might be embarrassed by and she wasn't.
John: really born with that, you know, self consciousness or whatever that, you know, that, that, that critical part going out, you shouldn't do that. Don't be ridiculous. Or that outfit looks funny, whatever it is. And yet layers and layers of living life, or in my case, like Surviving public school, you know, learning to be shamed by their kids and in the ways in which I'm not in the ways in which I'm unacceptable or whatever.
John: But then looking at, you know, my daughter and how out of the box, so to speak, she didn't come with those, those layers, right? We picked them up as we go.
Daphne: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I agree with that with shame being a learned response. Yes. And it being yeah, part of a way that, you know, shows up in socialization.
Daphne: You know, whether that be, you know, through one's family, school system, neighborhood, friends, you know, peer [00:39:00] group, all of it. Yeah, absolutely.
John: Yeah. I also just find that I'm, you know she has these C qualities just so readily available. Like compassion, or if she sees a kid that's hurt or an animal that's hurt, her first reaction without my wife and I, And I teaching her any of that is compassion and empathy and curiosity about all things in the world, you know, or even creativity and the way that she makes art.
John: And she thinks everything she makes is really cool, you know, every little thing she does, she's like, look how beautiful this is. And I'm just like. Wow. She's, she's kind of got it all. And and then the parenting question is like, Oh my God, how do I preserve all of this? You know, not screw her up.
Daphne: Yeah, no, definitely.
Daphne: Yes. And I, I have those parts too, that are worried about it. My gosh, am I going to screw up my kids? But yes. Yeah, but I totally hear you in terms of wanting to preserve their little spirit and their natural self energy, right. The, them being self led little systems, [00:40:00] wanting to really protect them as, as much as possible around.
Daphne: Preserving that that connection to self.
John: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for letting me indulge that a little.
Daphne: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Oh my goodness. Yes. As a fellow parent, I totally hear you and it is such a journey and such a journey of trail heads as well.
John: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a never ending we've got a few minutes left but, but Daphne, what do you feel like is kind of missing from this conversation?
John: Anything that you want to make sure people kind of hear today, and then we'll talk about how they can learn more about you and your work and any offerings you have right now that you want to mention.
Daphne: Sure. Gosh, I can't think of anything that's missing. I mean, I think the big piece is. Bottom line, IFS brings in the consent, a consent based way to do EMDR that is very trauma informed.
Daphne: That's consent based. And it's relational. So I know one thing, you know in terms of, you know, EMDR, sometimes I've heard the feedback from clients and [00:41:00] therapists that it's not relational, that EMDR, if people are following the pure protocol, that somehow it might feel to the client that it's not relational enough, right?
Daphne: Or it may be kind of cold or not cold, but you know, it's not, it's not really interpersonal. It's, it's not, you know, it's not a relational model.
John: In fact, that's how I was taught EMDR, which is to kind of get out of the way of the client. Right. And so I totally hear that. And Yeah, but yeah,
Daphne: so I think IFS can bridge that gap too, because I do think you know, I think that it just honors the not only relational like relationship, the therapeutic relationship, but it fosters it, but it also really attends relationally to the client system.
Daphne: kind of bridging the two models is very relational. So I do think it also helps with that gap in EMDR that sometimes people, clients experience. Yeah. So it'd be really the only other thing I can think of right now.
John: [00:42:00] Yeah, no, it's a, it's a wonderful reminder around consent and contracting with parts. And yeah, this piece again around You know, contracting with protectors kind of as we are doing the MDR work or before we really start the reprocessing has helped me so much and in my integration of the two models.
John: And again your, your chapter in the book altogether us just so helpful and really making it all. Start to click more for me. So thank you for for it for bringing that together.
Daphne: You're so welcome. Yeah. Thank you.
John: Yeah anything else in terms of like what you're up to lately any offerings you have whether it's for clients or therapists or Books.
Daphne: Sure. Yeah, so I am I'm going to be publishing something in the Andrea book go with that. So that will be coming out about EMDR and IFS integration. So you can be on the lookout for that. I also I am putting together trainings, CE trainings for [00:43:00] therapists on the integration of IFS and EMDR.
Daphne: So people can find that on my website. And and then I slowly working on more writing in terms of a book of EMDR, IFS integration. So, that's in process.
John: Yeah. Wonderful. And then do you work with therapists right now at consultation or anything like that?
Daphne: I do. Yes, I do. I do run, I'm getting ready to offer another offering for a consultation group that's bridging EMDR and IFS.
Daphne: And then I also You know, offer individual Right now I'm doing more group than individual just due to my availability, but I do also offer individual IFS consultation as well as EMDR consultation for certification.
John: Great. Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Daphne. I really appreciate your time and, and just everything that you're bringing to Both of these worlds, EMDR and IFS and we'll be sure to put links to everything in the description for folks listening or watching.
John: If you want to follow up and learn more about [00:44:00] Daphne or reach out about any of her offerings. So Daphne, thank you again. so much.
Daphne: Thanks so much for having me.
John: My pleasure. Thanks for listening to another episode of going inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend.
John: You can follow me on Instagram, @JohnClarkeTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkeTherapy.com. See you next time.
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