CPTSD and IFS with Dr. Tanner Wallace
CPTSD and IFS with Dr. Tanner Wallace
Join me in this episode as I delve into the world of Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (CPTSD) and Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy with the insightful Dr. Tanner Wallace. We explore the intersection of these two approaches and how they can be integrated for powerful healing journeys.
Key Topics Discussed:
1. Understanding the nuances of CPTSD and its impact on individuals' lives.
2. Exploring the core principles and techniques of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.
3. The effectiveness of combining CPTSD and IFS for comprehensive trauma recovery.
4. Addressing challenges and misconceptions surrounding trauma treatment and therapy.
5. Empowering clients through transparency, clear models of intervention, and collaborative recovery journeys.
Learn more about Dr. Tanner Wallace:
https://www.instagram.com/cptsdmedicine/
https://www.youtube.com/@cptsdmedicine
Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] John: Dr. Tanner Wallace is a former associate professor of applied developmental psychology and current IFS level three practitioner specializing in complex trauma recovery. Tanner, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for doing this. And gosh, what else should people know about who you are and how you got here?
[00:00:19] Tanner: Oh, my goodness. I think that might be a whole episode.
[00:00:23] John: That's fine. That's fine. I'm here for it.
[00:00:24] Tanner: And former professor. IFS. Complex trauma.
[00:00:29] John: Yeah.
[00:00:29] Tanner: I feel like that's that's a good start. It will come out as we start. Good.
[00:00:32] John: Good. Yeah. What more could people possibly want to know? Well, I I, I found out about you because of your, the content you make on Instagram, that's where I found you and just saw that you have a really unique perspective on trauma, trauma recovery complex trauma specifically. I know you've talked in your content about your own journey and how that's been a teacher for you of sorts. So I'm [00:01:00] very interested in that of course. And then I know you have your own program that you walk people through for, for healing trauma and recovering from complex trauma.
[00:01:08] John: So, and I know that. Very much integrates IFS and also has your own, you know, components as well, which I'm super curious about. So those are some of my current curiosities. You can, you can go wherever you want with it for now.
[00:01:24] Tanner: Yeah. I, I mean, I'm sure I know you. Talk a lot about IFS on this podcast. And that's, that's a main focus.
[00:01:33] Tanner: And so, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. You start with talking about Instagram because I learned about IFS on Instagram. And so I just have such, and it was new, I had never been a social media person, you know, kind of judge social media, to be honest, for many of my adult years, and then, you You just felt this calling to be more connected to people, be more in touch with what's [00:02:00] happening.
[00:02:00] Tanner: My kiddos were getting old enough that they were on social media. So it was like, well, I think I need to, you know, orient towards this. And, you know, I think there are a lot of negative things about social media for sure that we could say, and especially around kids development and. As a way to get information out to people that might not receive it or to connect people across the globe.
[00:02:23] Tanner: It's a pretty powerful platform. And so I'm just, so yeah, like I'm, I love Instagram. I learned about IFS. It's just been a kind of a central part of my own journey is content creation. So it's an interesting piece of it all .
[00:02:39] John: It is. Yeah, it's, it's, I see it as really a medium through which someone like you can accomplish their personal mission or purpose.
[00:02:51] John: Right. And there's kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly with the platform itself. But what I'm noticing is more and more [00:03:00] people that are Have experienced trauma and are looking for help or information or even just stumbling across a 15 second video. There's this collective kind of waking up to what is trauma and do I have it?
[00:03:16] John: And if I do, you know, how, how bad is it? Or how bad does the experience of trauma? had to be in order for it to be trauma or for it to be PTSD or complex PTSD. So I'm curious how you see everything in that regard in terms of people just who often live for decades with on. Unresolved trauma and treated trauma, and then have these realizations that, Oh my gosh, this is starting to click and it's starting to explain so much of my life and relationships and addictions and, and whatnot.
[00:03:48] Tanner: Yeah. You know, so I'm 47 years old and I feel like, you know, my generation, like plus or minus 10 years, I feel like I kind of cut across, [00:04:00] you know, a couple of the named cohorts, but. You know. It's like we're such an interesting generation. Most of our parents are still alive and my, my father's deceased, but he died early.
[00:04:12] Tanner: But, you know, for a lot of us, our parents are still living, but they're, they're getting, you know, older. And, you know, most of us have kids that are now in their teenage years. Like if we've kind of followed the script and life has sort of lent us this typical developmental trajectory, and It's like we look at our parents and we see how they raised us and we really realize like they didn't have access to information.
[00:04:40] Tanner: They didn't, you know, have access to therapy. People didn't talk about their emotions. You know, it was very unusual or atypical for someone in our parents generation to have access to those resources. And yet our kids have had information [00:05:00] so much younger. Around, like you said, the 15 second TikTok that's like, that's gaslighting.
[00:05:06] Tanner: Like this is consent, you know, and really powerful access. And I feel like. Where I sit in it, it's like many of us knew something wasn't right. And for many of us, we went to therapy for decades. Like something is not right. Something is not right. But no one said to us trauma or complex trauma because, you know, on paper it's like, I have a PhD.
[00:05:32] Tanner: I went to Harvard, you know, my family's well to do just from the stereotypical way of thinking about trauma. It's like, Well, you can't, you can't have trauma. Like you look at you on paper. And that, that's a really disorienting place to be. I mean, truly a cycle breaker to have to sit and be like, okay, how do I forgive my parents for what they couldn't give me?
[00:05:57] Tanner: And how do I learn how to [00:06:00] provide to my kids what I never received? And still seeing the imprint of trauma on kids, you know, a lot of the research shows it's like two generations. So it's like, you're doing it. So your kids don't suffer for sure. But for most of us, our kids will have mental health challenges.
[00:06:19] Tanner: Like even if we clean things up when they're still kids, but it's like, the hope is that their kids, kids will like, Sorry, our kids kids will be like untouched by the trauma. Like they'll be the first generation that's like, I was raised by a healthy parent from start to finish. So it's just, it's just interesting.
[00:06:39] Tanner: And I think social media does play a unique role in that. Like, I think if I were 13 and I had access to some of the Tik TOK content creators or Instagram or YouTube channels, like I would have known then what it was like, what it, what I was facing. So it's, it's hard not to, [00:07:00] you know, when I first started creating content, I came out kind of hard against therapists.
[00:07:05] Tanner: I now sort of regret because I, I've just healed so much. And it's like, there is no separation. We're all in this together.
[00:07:11] John: What was the, What was the anger about back then?
[00:07:15] Tanner: How many times starting at like 14 through like 45 I shared my story again and again and again and Just this unwillingness to look at a system.
[00:07:34] Tanner: Look at you know Why is this person saying this to me? I think you know, I A lot of the, just the reflective listening and not like actively like more detective work, like what's here, like, why is this keep presenting? And I just feel like I waste, I tried to get help in the ways that we are told to get help, get therapy, meet with someone and.
[00:07:57] Tanner: I wasted a lot of years. And [00:08:00] my children suffered because of that. Like if someone would have told me at 18, you're traumatized, you need to go on a healing journey. Do not have kids until you feel healed. Like do not get married until you feel healed. Like this matters. Like this is a big deal. It would have totally changed the trajectory of my life.
[00:08:18] Tanner: And my kid's life.
[00:08:20] John: Absolutely.
[00:08:22] Tanner: It's hard not to be bitter.
[00:08:25] John: Well, you know, part of me hopes you don't lose that bitterness entirely because it's a huge issue with our industry. You know, I'm a therapist and. Something I realized too late was after doing therapy with people for 10 years, realizing, Oh dear God, they're talking about their trauma.
[00:08:43] John: I actually have no idea how to treat it because the number of classes I had about trauma in grad school, right? Three and a half years of grad school was zero. You're doing one.
[00:08:52] Tanner: I'm doing one.
[00:08:54] John: I had one on. Crisis intervention and like resilience, which is like just people will be [00:09:00] resilient, you know, they'll figure it out, you know, like earthquake happens.
[00:09:02] John: And that was really it. And years into it, I went, Oh, my gosh, I need something to help these people. And not only is having people just talk about their trauma, not helpful, it's putting them back in their trauma. And then they're walking out my door and going home and getting in a fight with their partner or, you know, Super out of their bodies or drinking all night just to get through it.
[00:09:23] John: And so then that brought me to EMDR, which was a wonderful first step to becoming a trauma therapist and going, okay, I can at least now bring you something that's going to help your brain do what it's trying to do and process the memory part of trauma. And eventually when I came to IFS, I'm like, Oh my God, this is what I've been missing all along.
[00:09:41] John: And this model is so close to comprehensive for me personally and integrates a lot of how I got here with psychodynamic work. I did CBT for years. I did EMDR, all this stuff. And now bringing really IFS with some EMDR into my work is Is more than enough to help people [00:10:00] and, but for so many years and, and we therapists are so under trained with trauma that we need to keep talking about it and you should, you know, stay connected to some of that bitterness because it's a real issue.
[00:10:13] John: I have parts up around it too. Because I was a kid who was traumatized and no one asked, right. And my experience was he's an ADHD kid. He just can't sit still. Well, did anyone ask me why I couldn't sit still? No. Yeah. Right. Just, they just highly medicated me and put me in a different classroom, you know for all of my public school education.
[00:10:36] John: So here I am making this about me, but that's just to say, I, I share your Your anger and it's, it's warranted and we have to keep talking about it.
[00:10:45] Tanner: Yeah.
[00:10:47] John: Yeah. And it also creates more space for folks like you to come in, help people with trauma or people that come in from a non traditional background, right.
[00:10:58] John: Or not like a [00:11:00] therapist or clinical psychologist, but coming into it, your through your background and like really seeing it through your own unique lens, I think is actually very, very valuable.
[00:11:10] Tanner: Yeah. I was really disheartened when the IFS Institute changed the admissions criteria to only at least the United States to only be, you know humans that are actively being supervised through a mental health professional organization.
[00:11:26] Tanner: And so, You know, I, I didn't follow along too closely because I was like, okay, I got the news. I got what I needed. And so maybe they've released specifically why they did it, but if it was just a liability issue, I wish they had done the right thing and started a governing body for all the people not being supervised.
[00:11:42] Tanner: So I would have gladly been like, sure, I'll pay money to be supervised. That's good for all of us, you know? But yeah, I, I just think the diversity of help that's needed and the critical. Nature of, of like how [00:12:00] many people are affected? Like it just, yeah, we don't, that might be a whole episode. So I won't go into that, but I was really disheartened by that.
[00:12:07] Tanner: Like I actually had to re engage my mentor for some healing work because I was so outraged by that decision.
[00:12:13] John: I get that. I get that. I, IFS is an interesting model in that it's one of the few therapeutic models that can be accessed by non therapists, or even like if a coach tried to get trained in EMDR, it just wouldn't happen.
[00:12:31] John: Or at least doing it above board and going through, you know, the, the Institute for EMDR wouldn't happen. So also like when I think about, who kind of should be doing IFS on one hand, there's this piece around training credentials. On the other hand my fear is that therapists, coaches, practitioners who do damage are ones that haven't worked enough with their own system and their own parts, or have a part that is going in with a big agenda or going [00:13:00] right to an exile or just having a lot of ego about the work and that can make the work unsafe.
[00:13:06] John: And I don't know how An institute would regulate for something like that. But because I also again, I just see there's so many therapists out there that are doing damaging work and damaging their clients. And a lot of those clients end up coming to me after having failed therapy or being traumatized by their therapist.
[00:13:21] John: So to your point. Yeah. I don't know what the answer is .
[00:13:25] Tanner: It's really, it's definitely very multidimensional and it's complicated because I also know that a lot of therapy, you know, therapist program, counselor program, social work, like gatekeep, right? They don't want to let people in the profession that seem to have unresolved issues or mental health issues.
[00:13:43] Tanner: And that makes sense. And there's something really powerful about being held in a space where someone's sharing something to you. You're witnessing it and they say, you might not understand. And you can say, well, I don't know if I understand this. specific thing [00:14:00] that you're explaining, but here's how it lands in my body.
[00:14:03] Tanner: When I have an experience like this and you put it into words and they're like, Holy fuck. Like you just, like no one has ever mirrored that back to me. And I'm like, right, because complex trauma is an embodied experience. Unless you feel it in your body, it's, it's hard to hold somebody in it. And so, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, There's lots of, lots of factors, but anyway, I'm working around it because I'm, I was thinking about my own training program and I was like, Oh no, I'll wait, I'll wait, I'll wait.
[00:14:38] Tanner: And then when that decision happened, I'm like, Oh, the time is now.
[00:14:41] John: Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm curious going back to you and your model, you know, I know that from what I can see on the outside, Not being a member of one of your programs, you have a model that has either stages or steps. You have a process you walk through with people, you walk people [00:15:00] through that has a lot of IFS infused into it.
[00:15:03] John: Can you share more about what the model looks like and what else, how you went through this process of kind of adding more to it and developing your process?
[00:15:11] Tanner: Sure. Yeah. So I'm, as you noted in the introduction of former associate professor of applied developmental psychology. And, you know, I was in education for 20 years, studying classroom, classroom motivations, intervention science and psychological safety in classrooms and.
[00:15:31] Tanner: You know, when I learned what complex trauma was from Pete Walker's book, surviving to thriving and then started looking for solutions this was in 2020 I, you know, think we just do what we're trained, right? Like even if we're not trying to, you get trained too long in an approach and you see the world through it.
[00:15:50] Tanner: And so as I was. Piecing things together about like, okay, how am I going to recover from this? It just became really clear to me, you [00:16:00] know, I understood human development really well, because I taught it and I studied it, although I had never been introduced to complex trauma. So the issue is widespread in terms of like, how deep it goes that we're not, you know, really talking about this.
[00:16:13] Tanner: And I just, from all my training and intervention science, I was like, what I'm seeing here is not going to add up to recovery. Like complex trauma is a developmental injury. You need a developmental approach to this. Like there's internal attachment restoration, there's external attachment restoration.
[00:16:34] Tanner: You're living in a trauma ecosystem. Like there's a lot here that needs to be addressed. And so I think as I started just Studying what was being done in different approaches. What naturally just started happening was a curriculum started kind of coming like forward. And I think that's because I'm trained to make curriculums and interventions.
[00:16:55] Tanner: This is like what I do. So it's what I naturally did. And then as I [00:17:00] realized the need for it and everyone was home because it was COVID, I just, you know, started sharing it, you know, just like, okay, like this is what I'm doing. It's working for me. You know, do you want to join? And then as I deepened in over the next few years and went through my IFS level one, two, and three, which is another story that I was got in the lotteries and through so quickly.
[00:17:20] Tanner: I mean, like within the time that they require you to practice in between levels, as soon as that happened, I applied to the lottery again and got in. So I kind of sailed through the levels of IFS and just kept deepening that, but then also weaving in other things. Because I think the biggest thing about IFS that isn't as the model is, and I've been trained in it, that is not, Enough for complex trauma is that there's this assumption that IFS is this constraint release model, which it is right.
[00:17:54] Tanner: So you, as you unburden your system, you're basically releasing constraints so that self [00:18:00] energy can kind of spring forward. It's always been there. But in my experience of complex trauma and a lot of the clients I work with, self energy is not strong enough to do that unburdening. And so there needs to be a parallel process of amplifying and purifying self energy so that it's actually strong enough to work and hold space with the really strong, dark energies of trauma.
[00:18:29] Tanner: And so when I realized That IFS wasn't strong enough as a model on its own. I started weaving additional things in related to just that, that like amplifying and purifying self energy. And those come from different traditions. I mean, none of them are mine. I'm just a curriculum weaver. Oh, this works, put it in this works and, you know, framing it and giving people a sense of.
[00:18:55] Tanner: I mean, I think because learning and learning science is so integrated [00:19:00] into my own view of the world, you know, if someone has to go on a multi year journey, they need to know why they're doing something and when they're doing it and what they could expect the outcome to be, or else you get lost in the journey.
[00:19:15] Tanner: So what I've done with this. Curriculum is we kind of call it the teachings or the healing protocol is organize it so people can move through it and then go back through it again, or like just go back through a section of it when needed. And so that is a powerful, the simplest structure to facilitate a process is kind of what I like to think about it.
[00:19:39] John: It's great. And there's so much of this work is about safety versus unsafety. And a way to communicate safety. I mean, I, years ago when I first started learning about marketing, you know, I was a therapist and also learning about marketing this guy, Donald Miller, story brand a lot of his model is around basically [00:20:00] offering yourself as a guide to the hero's journey and showing them that you have a process that you can walk them through.
[00:20:06] John: Whether it's for like, How I'm going to clean your gutters or how I'm going to walk you through complex trauma. And that laying that out communicates so much safety to someone, right? That here, here's the process I've laid out. You're going to know where you are in that process, right? Be able to orient yourself.
[00:20:24] John: This is a process I've walked other people through, right? And that communicates so much safety to people, even though there's also obviously A ton of nuance in how they go through it, or how long it takes, or if they get stuck in certain You know, stages of the process or whatever it is. So I, I think that's really wonderful that you've bring that, that kind of curriculum side to it.
[00:20:47] Tanner: You know, the one thing that was coming through and I was kind of pausing to be like, so I want to take it in this direction or not, but like, I think it's also important as we're just talking about like guiding people through. I think. One of the things I've really learned through [00:21:00] doing this in community and being a guide and holding really strong containers.
[00:21:04] Tanner: And I think that's one of the things that, you know, if there is a legacy to my work, it's obviously because I want to help cycle breakers break their cycles and stand in that personal legacy. But if I look at like back and be like, if did I make an impact on like the industry or like how we treat complex trauma, it would be.
[00:21:26] Tanner: Not only do people need to do their individual work, but we need to teach people to how to hold super strong containers that are full permission. So, you know, full permission to channel parts and like really permission, not just in word, but like, this is a full permission container, whatever this part needs to express, whatever it needs to move, like I can hold this with you.
[00:21:51] Tanner: And so I think what's coming through just to share back is the curriculum's important, but it's also the container it's held within. And I [00:22:00] think a piece of that as well is that I had to honestly learn the hard way through my own healing. And, you know, I'm sure other guides can relate is that, you know, I'm really careful now in my messaging around Like, I don't even use hashtags anymore on Instagram.
[00:22:19] Tanner: Like, it's like, I just want it to be so squeaky clean that like you found me, you saw what I was saying, and then you decided you wanted it for yourself because that's the first best context for this work because. You know, if someone's reaching for something and like, you're going to save me, the curriculum is going to be the answer that first step of disempowerment is like, what we're trying at its core is like complex trauma recovery is like taking your power back.
[00:22:53] Tanner: And so it just kind of like goes with, and I'm thinking about the curriculum and learning about to share it and talk about it, that [00:23:00] those are two really important pieces of the puzzle as well.
[00:23:03] John: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a good point. That's, that's really well said and is ultimately honoring the, the client's journey, their autonomy in this, even positioning yourself as a guide not as the person who knows all this stuff.
[00:23:18] John: So they have to come and get it, you know, from your head, which fundamentally disempowers people. Right. But, and again, a lot of therapy is like that trauma experts, quote unquote, where people are coming to. Yeah. Get info from that person, right? And then what happens when the info dries up or the client is having a really hard time, they go, well, I need more info, right?
[00:23:37] John: Or I need to call my therapist because I'm, you know, falling apart or whatever it is. And then the only way I can put myself back together is when my therapist does it for me, right? This piece around can, can the container, building the container. This is a vague question on purpose. How do you know, or how does one know when the container is strong [00:24:00] enough to do the work?
[00:24:02] Tanner: Oh, that's a good question. That you're always finding your edge and you're always discovering new things where you're like, Oh wow. I didn't see that. Oh wow. Like that's here. But that you're held in the discovery with a lot of grace and mercy and you're given ways to move forward. So, you know, I've seen a lot of containers where a lot is discovered, but then there's not like, okay, well then let's unburden this or like, let's release this.
[00:24:35] Tanner: Like we need to move out of the witnessing stage. Like that's important. But. We were to trap to stay in witnessing. So it's like a strong containers, like, Whoa, I'm seeing things from like multiple angles and they're all happening. And I'm being supported and moving through. And I feel that the guide is like really in it with [00:25:00] me.
[00:25:00] Tanner: They're not just like checking a box or like moving a group of people through this robotically. Like they cry, they laugh. They grieve they they're they're here. They're like an active participant in it. Even as they're holding the container I think being able to disagree with the guide and say that's not my way and the guides like Amazing your medicine goes first.
[00:25:23] Tanner: How do you need me to adjust? So there's like a very agile You know, movement, but then also like a little bit of firmness. If it's like, we've been here before, I just want to reflect back to you. We've been here before. And like, we're going to either do this again the same way. Or you're gonna find your self-leadership and you're gonna really confront that part, and we're gonna hold it.
[00:25:49] Tanner: So it's like this dance of accountability structure. It's strong. I'm gonna be a mirror, but I love you and there is no separation and I'm not judging you, and I can be [00:26:00] wrong. Yeah, and I think that just takes somebody who's done a lot of work and is willing to share power, like, like, not just in word, but like, I, I am just a facilitator with a specific medicine, but my clients are also unlocking their medicine.
[00:26:19] Tanner: And I want to give them permission to make the space like a shared collaborative space. I think for me too, I mean, this is my personal and I think it's because I have addictive parts and I work in complex trauma, but I'm a really big advocate for sober CPTSD recovery. Which does not mean that plant medicine does not play a role in like what I call normal people's healing.
[00:26:45] Tanner: Like, okay, you've recovered from complex trauma and you want to reach higher states of consciousness. You want to see like what maybe life is really about. You want to merge with universal energy. Like, yes, yes. And yes, complex [00:27:00] trauma recovery is really about finding that seed of internal power. And to do that sober.
[00:27:09] Tanner: When it's just you and your body, it's an unshakable foundation. And so I just, I feel pretty passionate about that, but I'm, I'm open to new information of like, oh, I didn't see that. But I just think like the, to do the complex trauma recovery. So there is. Pretty important personally,
[00:27:30] John: It makes a lot of sense to me. I think if what substances can do is in part kind of filter our energy, our, our self energy or can, can Diminish it even 1%. You might need, you're going to need that 1 percent when you're doing this recovery work, when you're doing this healing work. So it, it makes sense to me, you know, what, what, what you're saying.
[00:27:54] John: Yeah. Yeah. I you know, you, you mentioned this point around if one of your clients or [00:28:00] students, I'm not sure what you call them kind of pushes back or says, Hey, this, this doesn't work for me, or this is not the way I do it. You know, As therapists, as you probably know, we have been trained to first and foremost see that as well, what Ford would call resistance.
[00:28:14] John: And then eventually we started calling it hesitation. But really we're trained to see that as like the client's problem, right? Or like the client kind of being problematic. Then this question around power came up, right? And so much of Again, where therapy came from all the way back to Freud. And his, you know, his work is still so alive and well and what we do, even if therapists today are not saying I'm a psychoanalyst, this, this power differential that therapist and client has, right?
[00:28:44] John: I'm in this chair and it's seated a bit higher than you. And I know a ton about you, you know, very little, if anything about me other than, you know, I live in San Francisco and you can tell I'm married cause I'm wearing a rink or whatever. And then a lot of our training with the ethics has to be around how to not [00:29:00] abuse that power.
[00:29:00] John: And sure enough, a lot of therapists end up. abusing it, right? So we are taught ad nauseum to be on the outside, right? And where the work can be dangerous as if you kind of are too much on the level of your client. And obviously, again, this opens up tons of nuance again around, you know, If all of a sudden the therapist goes, okay, screw it.
[00:29:21] John: I'm just going to like be human with them. And then the therapist is falling apart. And then the client goes, Oh my God, John can't handle it. Or when I go there, John can't handle it. So then I go into taking care of John and you know what I mean? It gets into that nuance too. So that's where we've been taught, even from the perspective of self disclosure of like, do you want to tell people you're married or not?
[00:29:42] John: Or if you tell them we've been trained to go, well, Tanner, it's, I'm wondering if you're thinking about marriage. Cause you're asking me about marriage. What is this? What's coming up for you that you're asking me about marriage. And then, yeah, but they're at this thing and then clients hate that and feel even further from you.
[00:29:57] John: But yeah.
[00:29:57] Tanner: I mean, I do [00:30:00] think like, if I think about, The ways in which I'm in relationship with my clients, it, you know, it's, it's clear that, you know, I share, they know my story actually, you know, share my story on the podcast. So there's this familiarity with me and, you know. I'm holding the space for them and I have my own spaces where I'm held by other people.
[00:30:24] Tanner: Right. So it's like just knowing that without inflating that too much, that it becomes an obstacle, but it's, it's like just knowing these kinds of like natural boundaries where like, yes, I would never rely on a client for processing of something that would feel, you Like take away from their experience of like, they can let go and be received in my containers, but sure.
[00:30:47] Tanner: I'm going to, you know, share if something's been hard or something's come through in a very packaged processed way. So I think there's, you know, an art. Art to how to hold the [00:31:00] space, you know, and, and let clients feel like they can relax and receive fully from us. I think that's what we're both talking about.
[00:31:07] Tanner: It's like, how do we create a space where our clients can just relax into the relationship without it feeling awkward or strange or too much or not about them.
[00:31:19] John: Absolutely. And you know, the, the more of the nuance is some of my clients, they literally need to know a bit more about me for us to establish safety, right.
[00:31:29] John: Or for us to create a container where they can go forward. Right. I also had a, a client where So I run a trauma practice here in San Francisco. It's a teaching practice. So I supervise clinicians for the board and one of the therapists said, you know, it's been like two or three sessions and the client still won't look at me.
[00:31:50] John: And I offered this insight that I had been working with a client for over three months And she still had made eye contact with me. Right. [00:32:00] Naturally if I have parts up around that, right around, like, you know, she's not letting me in. Why won't you let me in? I want to help you. Do you not think I'm trustworthy?
[00:32:07] John: I'm so trustworthy. Right. Like, why don't people just trust me? Right. Like I'm a nice guy, you know, can't everyone see that which is all well and good. Right. Like those are some, some parts that could jump in and start to bring an agenda, you know, around the eye contact. But instead. I just trusted right that that safety was going to be extra slow to build and also it made sense given her trauma history.
[00:32:33] John: And so after three months when it finally did happen and in a, a powerful moment when she looked up and made eye contact with me, I commented on it, Hey, three months in, you just looked up at me. What, what was that like? And what did, what did you see? Right. Or what did your parts see when they looked up and saw this, this guy and I'm open to whatever I'm going to hear there.
[00:32:52] John: But we can't assume that. Safety is just a given, right? Or that's just built in or because I'm a therapist, I have all these degrees that I'm a [00:33:00] safe dude, right? Like, it's almost the opposite. It's like innocent until proven guilty or kind of the opposite, right? I'm like, it's so important that you have parts that are not yet trusting me.
[00:33:10] John: And if we go in and bulldoze, you know, protectors and bypass protectors again, like that's where the work gets really dangerous.
[00:33:18] Tanner: Yeah. One of my favorite, just in line with this, one of my favorite IFS questions that I started asking is sometimes if it feels like there's Something happening that feels like it might not fully trust what's happening.
[00:33:31] Tanner: And I'll say, Oh, you know, the part that we're working with, does it know I'm here? Can you ask it? And most of the time they know I'm here. Like, yeah, they know that you're here, Tanner. Okay. Does that part have anything it wants to ask me? And I know it's not you asking me. It's just, It's the part asking me and that just opens up so much conversation to be like, Oh, my part can ask you.
[00:33:53] Tanner: I'm like, yeah, parts can ask me questions. I'll be honest with them. And I think that's just like, so liberating [00:34:00] to, to open up a space to actually name what's going through a client's mind and body around the process and who we are.
[00:34:10] John: That's wonderful. Yeah. I I was at this, a training one time, saw Frank Anderson do this in a demo where he essentially asked that question and invited the protector to look through the client's eyes and check him out, check out Frank and, and to, yeah, let me know what, what you see.
[00:34:27] John: And it was very beautiful and very in the moment and you know, the protector had quite a bit of sass to them, which Everyone got a kick out of but again, it's like, who the hell is this guy? And why should I trust him? And I don't care about your medical degrees. And I'm like, you know, and Hey, you're trying to get me to do this demo in front of all these people, you know, there's like a hundred people in the room, like, what's up with that?
[00:34:47] John: It was great. Right. It's like literally coming right from the part and the client's going, okay.
[00:34:53] John: Like, yeah. Cause you asked, so here it is.
[00:34:57] Tanner: Yeah.
[00:34:57] John: The [00:35:00] ethics, you know, piece again, I'm like on this therapist versus coach question also, you know, it's like my wife is a coach and so she's in this, on this path of she's on one hand like credentialed and certified and all these pieces.
[00:35:15] John: And also there are again, therapists out there doing damage. There are coaches out there doing damage. So I'm just like, Sitting with some of these and thinking, like, how does one do the work ethically or to your point of, like, making sure your clients don't go into a caregiver role for you. That's those are ethics that you just kind of know, and are built in, and what's scary is that those aren't necessarily built in for everyone are people that haven't helped people before in a client practitioner, a client helper role in a relationship. It's it's different. It's powerful. It's intense. There are clients again that want to know a lot about you, which can be both helpful.
[00:35:53] John: And that can also shift the dynamic. That can be too much. That can be Yeah. Yeah. You get, you get where I'm going.
[00:35:59] Tanner: [00:36:00] Yep.
[00:36:01] John: Yeah. We've got, yeah, a little bit of time left. I'm just curious what else you want to make sure you can say today or anything else that you are excited to share with folks?
[00:36:13] Tanner: I mean, I think it kind of goes with everything that we've been saying, which is. You know, I think when it comes, especially to complex trauma, but a diversity of perspectives are needed. Multiple modalities are needed. And, you know, we really need trained guides that can hold strong containers that weave together a lot of different modalities, but with their own theory of transformation behind it, not just, Oh, I guess I'll try this today.
[00:36:40] Tanner: Or like, Oh, this didn't work. Let's throw this in. But that more of us need to take really seriously that we're offering an intervention. And if we're offering an intervention, there needs to be a plan. There needs to be benchmarks. There needs to be a way for a client to say, where am I in this process?
[00:36:57] Tanner: Like, how much longer do I have? [00:37:00] And I think been like hesitant to give timelines and tell people they can permanently heal. But I really think that's the call to be like, no, you can permanently heal. You resolve your complex trauma. You might always need support ongoing. Most of us do, but you deserve to know where you are in the process.
[00:37:21] Tanner: And I think the more humans that kind of demand that level of service and integrity, I think the stronger this will be. So I'm also a really huge like client advocate for clients together to be like, we have more power than we imagine. And we can, you know, come together as a collective and be like, this is what high quality complex trauma recovery support looks like.
[00:37:45] Tanner: And we don't have to wait for. The powers that be to change their, you know, process, like we can be conscious consumers of things. And so, yeah, I think that's what I'd say at the end.
[00:37:59] John: Yeah. [00:38:00] Wow. That's yeah, that's, that's powerful. And I think more people like you are needed to kind of question the whole paradigm around healing or around, again, so, so much of therapy, therapy being rooted in really outdated ideas by.
[00:38:17] John: problematic old white men. And yeah, and and not a lot of permission to, to, to challenge that and bring in yeah, new ways of looking at the work or even looking at the client relationship. It's interesting again, as therapists, we are bound by some funky things like not being able to like promise results, right.
[00:38:37] John: And, or even like communicating that like permanent healing is possible. It's like on one hand, yes, I'm a hundred percent on board with that. On the other hand, like we've been told not to say stuff like that, you know, because we can't promise just like people are signing a medical informed consent saying this treatment might help.
[00:38:52] John: It also might make you worse. It could go either way. You're kind of signed up for whatever happens. We also can't do packages. So I can't say this is a three [00:39:00] month, you know, program at the end of that you'll graduate or whatever. We can't, yeah, do that or like collect money ahead of time for future sessions.
[00:39:07] John: So there's some of that funkiness around like what we can and cannot do because we answer to the board, but
[00:39:14] Tanner: yeah,
[00:39:14] John: but from a principal standpoint, I, I a hundred percent agree with what you're offering again, in terms of clarity, a model even if they go through the program again, just having this stepped.
[00:39:24] John: Sequence just again, communicate so much safety and transparency, which there'd be, there's so little transparency around, like, what kind of therapy is my therapist doing? Right. Like, yeah.
[00:39:35] Tanner: Yeah. I think transparency is a key word. So I'm glad you just placed that here.
[00:39:42] John: Yeah, I really appreciate that about everything you're doing and about your model, how it's all laid out and they can decide, right, whether they want to go on this journey with you.
[00:39:50] John: So, and with the, the other clients. So that's amazing. Tanner, thank you so much for, for doing this also for being willing to just do an unstructured interview and see where [00:40:00] it takes us. Absolutely. Yeah, very good sport in that regard. Having. Yeah. No planned topics here. What else should people know about kind of what you're up to now, what your offerings look like right now, and then of course, how people can find out more about you and reach out to work together.
[00:40:16] Tanner: Yeah. So I feel the best way to find me is like everything @CPTSDmedicine, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook website. That's kind of the main umbrella of everything. And, you know, especially if people are listening and they're. They're thinking, Oh, I'd like to be more trauma informed. Like, Oh, I have this training background, but I'd love to have my own kind of recovery journey and then infuse, you know, some of what I learn in my work with clients, then definitely come find me because there's a training program that's launching in October.
[00:40:49] Tanner: That's going to be based on the curriculum.
[00:40:52] John: So cool. Yeah. So @CPTSDmedicine Instagram, YouTube. I know you also have a podcast as well. That's the name of the podcast. Oh [00:41:00] yeah.
[00:41:00] Tanner: Thank you podcast. Yep. Mm-Hmm? . .
[00:41:02] John: Yeah. Yeah. I'm on a break.
[00:41:05] Tanner: I'm on a break from the podcast just for like a month. Okay. And I feel like I'm like, oh wow.
[00:41:09] Tanner: I've like really taken a break from it. I'm not even mentioning it, but I podcast. And the podcast has over a hundred episodes, so it's well developed.
[00:41:17] John: Amazing. Yeah. It's a lot of fun and a lot of work. Yeah, exactly.
[00:41:22] Tanner: Out of sight, out of mind.
[00:41:24] John: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh yeah, that is my podcast. It's like we'll, we'll of course put links, all those in the description show notes wherever.
[00:41:34] John: If people are listening or if you're watching, it'll be in the YouTube description. Yeah, Tanner, thank you so much again, for being here and you're welcome back anytime and thank you for the work that you're, that you're doing out there.
[00:41:46] Tanner: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure and I'm just so honored to have a chance to share with you and just have this conversation.
[00:41:51] Tanner: So thank you so much.
[00:41:53] John: You got it.
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